Gossip?

[Ruby]

Hi!

I just received a letter from someone who belongs to my former church. Some of you know the story about my departure...with my Pastor wigging out...and the hurt it caused me. If you don't, and want to read about it, you can go here..... http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22658

Anyhow, I had emailed my friend when I left the church and told her what had happened, and why I was leaving. She had been out of town during the whole incident. She got upset about what I told her. Her husband really got upset since he is an ordained minister himself, and probably a part of the Pastor's secret group of elders. He emailed me angrily. I replied and never heard from them until now.

My friend wants to still be my friend so long as I don't talk to her about the church or Pastor etc. She says I was gossiping when I told her what happened to cause me to leave......especially when I gave some details about others who had been hurt and left too, and especially when I spoke about the Pastor.

She says she has been learning from some classes at our church about how to avoid confrontation. She feels I was being very confrontational.

Therefore, I am the bad bad person who gossips and brings confrontation, and she is the better person because she hasn't!!

She then proceeded to run on about some great travelling through the southern states she has done lately.

I am sure she patted herself on the back after that email. What a true Christian she must feel.

Well, I guess I am a gossip. I have "gossiped" here on JREF about the whole thing too. What a nasty person I would seem if she knew that.

I am so caught between feeling angry and also feeling guilt. I have always hated gossip.....and what it does to people.......and now, apparently, I have been the biggest one of all.

I told her that the Pastor preached a condemning message that hurt me and my husband. I told her that he took things from a private conversation and brought them up in his little sermon in order to blast us from the pulpit without revealing our names.

She has listened to the tapes from this service, and the service where he talked about all the legalistic changes he wants to impose, and she does not see things the same way I do. In fact, she seems clueless. This is not surprising. Even the fact that a third of the congregation left does not disturb her.

I don't know how to respond to her. I know I am supposed to email and say how sorry I am for gossiping and what a wicked person I am, but my hearts not in it. Maybe I will feel more repentant in a few days.

I just find this very upsetting. Sorry to gossip to everyone here. I just need people to talk to about this.

 

[LuxFerum]

Your are not gossiping, The fact that you talk about something does not make it a gossip (specially when your are talking to a friend).
Hope you get over this situation soon.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Classes in avoiding confrontation?

How very convenient. What next "Why you must submit to my will - 101?"

 

[hgc]

Confrontation is often the best way to deal with a problem. You did the right thing for you and your family by confronting what happened in church. If she wants to avoid it, then that's her business.

I suppose if you want to remain friendly with her, respond to the part of her e-mail about her trip, and just drop the rest of it.

 

[Ruby]

Your are not gossiping, The fact that you talk about something does not make it a gossip (specially when your are talking to a friend).
Hope you get over this situation soon.

Thanks!!

I don't even think I know what true gossip entails. In Christian circles to talk to anyone about problems, upsets, or issues you have with anyone is what defines gossip. To even vent your hurt or frustration with a person to your best friend was considered gossip. I'd like to have the true definition.

 

[Upchurch]

Ruby,

I think there is a difference between being confrontational just to be contrarian and being confrontational because something is truely bothering you. What your former Pastor is teaching your friend to do is to shut up, stop thinking, and trust him without question. In my mind, supression of free thought and discussion is one of the principle qualities of a cult.

I don't see any reason for you to apollogize for anything, least of all for explaining yourself.

The way I see it, you have two options in relation to your friend. You can either give up on her because she's made her decision and nothing you say will change her mind or you can countinue to discuss with her what happened, whether she likes it or not. The very last thing you should ever consider doing is appologizing to her for following your conscience.

 

[Ruby]

Classes in avoiding confrontation?

How very convenient. What next "Why you must submit to my will - 101?"

Some lady has come to the church to teach special classes called "Designer originals" on sunday evening. She has been talking about avoiding confrontation in these classes. It has certainly convicted my friend.

 

[Ruby]

Confrontation is often the best way to deal with a problem. You did the right thing for you and your family by confronting what happened in church. If she wants to avoid it, then that's her business.

I suppose if you want to remain friendly with her, respond to the part of her e-mail about her trip, and just drop the rest of it.

I don't know how I will respond. I can't do it while i feel upset about it. I never had a very close friendship with her anyway. It was a difficult friendship from the start. The funny thing is, she would deny that. I know she thinks she has been a great friend and we've had a fairly close friendship. She did do some nice things for me....but we never clicked in personality.

 

[Ruby]

Ruby,

I think there is a difference between being confrontational just to be contrarian and being confrontational because something is truely bothering you. What your former Pastor is teaching your friend to do is to shut up, stop thinking, and trust him without question. In my mind, supression of free thought and discussion is one of the principle qualities of a cult.

I don't see any reason for you to apollogize for anything, least of all for explaining yourself.

The way I see it, you have two options in relation to your friend. You can either give up on her because she's made her decision and nothing you say will change her mind or you can countinue to discuss with her what happened, whether she likes it or not. The very last thing you should ever consider doing is appologizing to her for following your conscience.

Thanks. That is good advice!!

The nutty thing is, I am worried I will hurt her feelings if I don't give her a reply.

 

[Pahansiri]

Greetings my friend
Ruby


Has your friend told others she believes you gossiped? Has she spoken to even one other about this and stated an opinion?


If so, she is clearly a “gossip”. It would seem she is not in fact a “real Christian”.

Perhaps you can offer her these passages from the Bible.

Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:41
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Luke 6:42
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


Perhaps offer her a shoulder rub to help relieve the pain from her throwing of the first stone.

Ask her with a voice of respect if she were to find that a person living next door was molesting and beating their child would it gossip to seek to protect this child by telling family services.


Wish her to be well and happy and let her know you love all beings and do not judge her or others just actions you believe are wrong.

You separate the act from the actor.

 

[Ruby]

Greetings my friend
Ruby


Has your friend told others she believes you gossiped? Has she spoken to even one other about this and stated an opinion?

She says that no one has been gossiping about us, period. The only person that I know she talked to was her husband. She let him read my email to her and he emailed me back with an angry reply.

If so, she is clearly a “gossip”. It would seem she is not in fact a “real Christian”.

Perhaps you can offer her these passages from the Bible.

Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Luke 6:41
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Luke 6:42
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.


Perhaps offer her a shoulder rub to help relieve the pain from her throwing of the first stone.

Ask her with a voice of respect if she were to find that a person living next door was molesting and beating their child would it gossip to seek to protect this child by telling family services.


Wish her to be well and happy and let her know you love all beings and do not judge her or others just actions you believe are wrong.

You separate the act from the actor.

Actually, taken to the level that Christians define "gossip", she was gossiping when she told her husband. I would not be surprised if one or both talked to the Pastor too.

Thanks for some good tips and advice.

 

[Yahzi]

Wash your hands, Ruby. There's nothing left there for you. Get out and start over somewhere else.

 

[Upchurch]

Actually, taken to the level that Christians define "gossip", she was gossiping when she told her husband. I would not be surprised if one or both talked to the Pastor too.

Ya know, it's interesting how often the rules are abitrarily applied.

I'm with Yahzi, but if you feel you must try to reach your friend, don't back down from your position unless you genuinely think you're mistaken about some aspect.

 

[Dancing David]

Gossip, it is not gossip if you refer to events that you yourself have percieved, and to relate what others have told you of thier experience is not gossip.

It is gossip to spreead tales about things that have not been experienced by you, it is relating someone else's story to tell anothere experience.

There is funny thing about truth, it is always true. There may be different perceptions but the truth is always true.

Just be nice to them when this cult blow up.

 

[Brown]

As I suggested in a previous thread, this sort response is typical of some religious groups. They do not tolerate dissent, and they can't stand it when someone questions their "authoritah."

Nevertheless, they feel perfectly justified in heaping criticism on the dissenters, calling them (among other things) "factious" and "stiff-necked." ("Life of Brian" was very much on point, where the PFJ members angrily refer to former members as "splitters," even though they themselves were probably split off from another group at one point.)

These people have two serious character flaws: (1) they refuse to recognize the possibility that they might be in the wrong; and (2) they can dish it out but they can't take it.

 

[calladus]

I just received a letter from someone who belongs to my former church. Some of you know the story about my departure...with my Pastor wigging out...and the hurt it caused me. If you don't, and want to read about it, you can go here..... http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22658

Anyhow, I had emailed my friend when I left the church and told her what had happened, and why I was leaving. She had been out of town during the whole incident. She got upset about what I told her. Her husband really got upset since he is an ordained minister himself, and probably a part of the Pastor's secret group of elders. He emailed me angrily. I replied and never heard from them until now.

My friend wants to still be my friend so long as I don't talk to her about the church or Pastor etc. She says I was gossiping when I told her what happened to cause me to leave......especially when I gave some details about others who had been hurt and left too, and especially when I spoke about the Pastor.

She says she has been learning from some classes at our church about how to avoid confrontation. She feels I was being very confrontational.

Therefore, I am the bad bad person who gossips and brings confrontation, and she is the better person because she hasn't!!

She then proceeded to run on about some great travelling through the southern states she has done lately.

I am sure she patted herself on the back after that email. What a true Christian she must feel.

Well, I guess I am a gossip. I have "gossiped" here on JREF about the whole thing too. What a nasty person I would seem if she knew that.

I am so caught between feeling angry and also feeling guilt. I have always hated gossip.....and what it does to people.......and now, apparently, I have been the biggest one of all.

I told her that the Pastor preached a condemning message that hurt me and my husband. I told her that he took things from a private conversation and brought them up in his little sermon in order to blast us from the pulpit without revealing our names.

She has listened to the tapes from this service, and the service where he talked about all the legalistic changes he wants to impose, and she does not see things the same way I do. In fact, she seems clueless. This is not surprising. Even the fact that a third of the congregation left does not disturb her.

I don't know how to respond to her. I know I am supposed to email and say how sorry I am for gossiping and what a wicked person I am, but my hearts not in it. Maybe I will feel more repentant in a few days.

I just find this very upsetting. Sorry to gossip to everyone here. I just need people to talk to about this.

Ruby,
Why should you be the one to make things all better now? You are being played.

Guilt can be a very controlling and destructive emotion. A manipulative person can use feelings of guilt to control (or punish) others.

It sounds to me like the pastor is finding avenues of communication directly to you, so that he can punish you for what he thinks you have done to him and the church.

Maybe you are a target here, maybe the pastor is using a shotgun approach to get the 1/3 of the church that left to feel guilty. Certainly a beneficial (to him) side effect is that he more closely controls his flock too.

You have a chance to turn the tables here - look at your old church friends as people who have a line of communication with your old pastor. This could be useful. You could do the playing - if you want to be as ruthless as your ex-church.

 

[calladus]

What your former Pastor is teaching your friend to do is to shut up, stop thinking, and trust him without question. In my mind, supression of free thought and discussion is one of the principle qualities of a cult.

Ruby,
Upchurch is SO RIGHT here! (Way to go dude!)

Your former church is, or is fast becoming a cult. Your escape from it is leaving some emotional scarring - which is ALSO a symptom of a cult!

You should do some reading Ruby - I highly recommend Captive Hearts, Captive minds which not only talks about cults, but controlling relationships. There is a LOT of literature on controlling groups - and I think it might benefit you to read something about it - you may recognize what is going on then.

Here is another good list of books on cults and controlling people from a source that really knows their stuff about cults. If you like something there better - get it and read it. You need to see what has been done to you.

 

[ntech]

Ruby
When you describe public events it is wrong for her to call that gossip. You have nothing to apologize for. Her and her husband are obviously siding and will side with that insane minister.

Please don’t feel you can trust those people any longer. They will stab you in the back.

I agree that you should wash your hands of these people. They are not in your league.

 

[Nucular]

Hi Ruby,

I've been following your threads on the subject of your 'divorce' from your church without joining in, but like everyone here I think you handled the whole thing brilliantly.

Just thought I'd chuck my tuppence into this thread. Everyone's got a different way they'd react to the situation you're describing here, so I thought I'd just add what I think I'd do in that situation (rather than necessarily what I think you should do, Ruby).

Just meet what she said about you gossiping with a very friendly disagreement. Be concerned that she thought you were gossiping, as you respect her opinion, but say, having thought it over, you think there's a difference between what you did and gossip, and explain why. No need to get forthright, offended or defensive, or go on about it, just disagree in the mildest of ways. That way, it's not swept under the carpet, and you get to come back to what she said.

I think I'd also have the attitude that it's up to her if she wants to stay friends - make myself there if she wants to keep in touch, but not compromise myself or my feelings and thoughts just to do so. You can accept her as she is, so it's up to her to see if she can accept you as you are. Otherwise, she's not a friend anyway.

I think it's a luxury of the sceptical position on things not to have to fall out with people over their beliefs - in fact, I tend to gravitate towards people who have different beliefs to me, as I find them interesting. If she wants to fall out with you, that's her limitation, and her loss, not yours.

 

[Yahweh]

Yahweh says "Let there be cynicism"...

Hi!

Hi, Ruby!

I just received a letter from someone who belongs to my former church. Some of you know the story about my departure...with my Pastor wigging out...and the hurt it caused me. If you don't, and want to read about it, you can go here..... http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22658

I remember that thread, the stories of how your pastor handled the church sounded innately "Cultish"... ah hell, it was cultish.

[/b]Anyhow, I had emailed my friend when I left the church and told her what had happened, and why I was leaving. She had been out of town during the whole incident. She got upset about what I told her. Her husband really got upset since he is an ordained minister himself, and probably a part of the Pastor's secret group of elders. He emailed me angrily. I replied and never heard from them until now.[/b]

I love the way you can use the phrase "and probably a part of the Pastor's secret group of elders" and mean it both sarcastically and literally at the same time.

My friend wants to still be my friend so long as I don't talk to her about the church or Pastor etc. She says I was gossiping when I told her what happened to cause me to leave......especially when I gave some details about others who had been hurt and left too, and especially when I spoke about the Pastor.

Of course your friend said you were gossiping, she says this because she needs to find at least one way to prove how are a bad bad dirty dirty person. Gossiping is the best she can do, she should try a lot harder next time.

She says she has been learning from some classes at our church about how to avoid confrontation. She feels I was being very confrontational.

In my experience, being confrontational is probably the first step to be intelligent. Your friend sounds like she's the type to be passive submissive (she likes to be told what to think because doesnt have the intellect or testicular fortitude to think for herself). She also seems to dismissive of the priests actions and too willing to persecute anyone who disagrees with the all knowing and wise "Church".

(Note: I also know quite a bit about child and teenage psychology, why shouldnt it apply to adults acting immaturely... super cool post-college graduate Yahweh workin his psychology mojo, big ups for Yahweh .)

Therefore, I am the bad bad person who gossips and brings confrontation, and she is the better person because she hasn't!!

Dont feel bad . If makes you feel better, you can show your friend this site and when she starts posting crazy talk, we'll all criticize her and teach her a lesson about making our beloved Ruby feel bad.

She then proceeded to run on about some great travelling through the southern states she has done lately.

I was born in the South, there is a lot of Christians who live there who havent taken the time to figure out why exactly they are Christians (such as rationalizing their beliefs, asking some of the big religious questions, etc.)

I am sure she patted herself on the back after that email. What a true Christian she must feel.

She calls you wrong, she calls you a gossip, she says you are confrontational simply because you disagree with the way your church was being ran... yeah "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor" mean nothing to this "true Christian" now does it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes a little more than "defending the Church" to make you a "true Christian".

Well, I guess I am a gossip. I have "gossiped" here on JREF about the whole thing too. What a nasty person I would seem if she knew that.

I think if you have gossiped here on the JREF (which I dont think you have), you did it with good intentions.

I am so caught between feeling angry and also feeling guilt. I have always hated gossip.....and what it does to people.......and now, apparently, I have been the biggest one of all.

Dont feel angry, dont feel guilty. In fact, you deserve another one of these "rub" smilies again.

I told her that the Pastor preached a condemning message that hurt me and my husband. I told her that he took things from a private conversation and brought them up in his little sermon in order to blast us from the pulpit without revealing our names.

Let me guess, this is all fine and dandy with your friend. Your friend doesnt seem to be one very familiar with compassion or the with branch of philosophy called "ethics". She's a run with the crowd kind of gal, if her pastor is being insultive then certainly she should be too. The friend sounds like she has a real winner personality.

She has listened to the tapes from this service, and the service where he talked about all the legalistic changes he wants to impose, and she does not see things the same way I do. In fact, she seems clueless. This is not surprising. Even the fact that a third of the congregation left does not disturb her.

Faith is often rooted in the ability of one to "ignore the obvious".

I don't know how to respond to her. I know I am supposed to email and say how sorry I am for gossiping and what a wicked person I am, but my hearts not in it. Maybe I will feel more repentant in a few days.

No! Do not give in to her. Her intentions were to deliberately hurt you for you beliefs, you have no reason to apoligize. Zep mentioned that there we have chased all the crazy people away on another thread, bring this friend to this message board. She might learn a thing or two about acting like intelligent moral person (she might learn a thing or two about religion as well).

I just find this very upsetting. Sorry to gossip to everyone here. I just need people to talk to about this.

You always have a shoulder to cry on here at the JREF. If you need to cry, cry. If you need to gossip, gossip.

Sure, Yahweh doesnt have a talent with being uplifting, but he speaks the truth and he says your friend is completely ill-founded in her beliefs and the way she treats others.