GM and the UAW

I am talking marginal production, not absolute production, although it is worth mentioning that this company is NOT doing well at all.

In fact, it is closing something like 26 of 34 production plants around the country, and is trying to cut the union wage to $16.50.

Yeah, that's a big cut in pay, but the short answer is that the workers aren't worth what they are getting now, and the company could be just as productive if they were to get workers willing to take the $16.50.
 
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Many times unions will agree to drop wages instead of layoffs. Its not all about maxing the pay per hour. Airline pilots have been in the news lately. They took a paycut.

Why begrudge unions, there just acting like the comapanies. In a sense they are a labour company. Sort of like when companies merge in order to have a better market foothold.
 
HeavyAaron said:
What a happy world you live in where employees would only unionize when their employer is unjust.

Has it occurred to you that employees will ALWAYS want better treatment than they receive, no matter how good it is? And that maybe, just maybe, some unions formed as a result of greed, not mistreatment?

If an employee is mistreated they have choices: 1) if it was illegal treatment: sue 2) if they are undercompensated for their work: quit.
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I DO think places only unionize when they feel slighted by the company. If employers are happy, theres no reason to unionize because it will cost the workers $$$ and it will sour the good relationship they already have.

By the way, in reality sueing a big company and/or quiting your job are really not plausable options for most.
 
I also oppose companies when they act in non-competitive behavior (see MLB, or those that hire illegal immigrants because they are a cheap source of labor)

But why begrudge unions? As I said above, this particular union of unskilled, uneducated workers earns just as much as my wife, more when benefits are taken into account. They are earning well above their marginal production, and then complain loudly when someone has the audacity to suggest that they are replacable with pretty much anyone.

Child labor laws were needed to keep companies from exploiting children. However, the fact that child labor laws are needed in the first place is because children can do the work that these people do, and more or less just as well. Are their skills valuable to the company? Only in the hands they provide.

These are people with minimum wage skills, doing minimum wage value work, getting paid like doctors. With better benefits.
 
pgwenthold said:
But why begrudge unions? As I said above, this particular union of unskilled, uneducated workers earns just as much as my wife, more when benefits are taken into account.
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Maybe your wife should consolidate services with the the other local vets! :)

Then she could cash in!
 
GM is using the Union as a scapegoat. Lots (if not all) car companies deal with unions but arent in bad shape like GM.

THeres some bad management in their. Like focusing on big SUV models while gas prices shoot up. Then theirs the health care costs. Thats not really caused by the union, thats the state of healthcare today.
 
Tmy said:
GM is using the Union as a scapegoat. Lots (if not all) car companies deal with unions but arent in bad shape like GM.
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You can claim that all you want but the fact is, they are not turning a profit. It doesn't really matter who is to blame. It is what it is. If they don't fix the problems (union/pensions/reputation/salary/sales) they will go under.

You wanna point fingers? You'll need three: One for GM who accepted the Union deals, one for the Union that couldn't keep their fingers out of the pot, and one for the Government that demands Corporations accommodate union strikes (something, I might add, that the government doesn't do) and doesn't require corporations to fully fund pensions up front.

Done pointing?
 
pgwenthold said:
But why begrudge unions? As I said above, this particular union of unskilled, uneducated workers earns just as much as my wife, more when benefits are taken into account. They are earning well above their marginal production, and then complain loudly when someone has the audacity to suggest that they are replacable with pretty much anyone.

These are people with minimum wage skills, doing minimum wage value work, getting paid like doctors. With better benefits.
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I'm all for people banding together for better wages. Even if they if they are unskilled and uneducated. Collective bargaining is and should be a market force.

I'm also for a company picking up stakes and moving where the rubes are less organized in order to avoid such bull****.

What doctors and vets get paid in relation is of no relevance.

FWIW, I have worked a union job in the past. Pay was good, but the work atmosphere sucked badly. I took a lower paying but more satisfying job after a while.

I also have a feeling GM's problems go well beyond the unions. They just don't make enough things people want to buy.
 
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shecky said:
I'm all for people banding together for better wages. Even if they if they are unskilled and uneducated. Collective bargaining is and should be a market force.
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Unions are a natural result of capitalist industry. Capitalist production organises labour into a purchasable commodity like any other commodity it needs. It isn't like any other, of course, because people are not like minerals. They will notice that they're needed and that they can organise things a little bit more in their own communal interest.

I'm also for a company picking up stakes and moving where the rubes are less organized in order to avoid such bull****.
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They will have to be organised into a workforce, with the inevitable results (see above).

What doctors and vets get paid in relation is of no relevance.
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They're posh, so they have guilds, not unions. :)

I also have a feeling GM's problems go well beyond the unions.
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Gigantism, sclerosis, attention deficit disorder, ostrich syndrome. To name a few.
 
CapelDodger said:
Unions are a natural result of capitalist industry. Capitalist production organises labour into a purchasable commodity like any other commodity it needs. It isn't like any other, of course, because people are not like minerals.
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But unlike any other commodity, price fixing is not legal and, even if it were, you can refuse to continue to purchase commodities from any given entity that tried it. The unions practice price fixing and you can't fire the workers if they strike. You can close the business, you can hire 'scabs' while the strike continues, but you gotta take the strikers back when all is said and done.

Remove just the latter and the problem goes away.
 
GM has global revenue of almost $200 billion. That's what, third in the world of all companies? How does a company selling that much stuff lose money? I always hear that they make crummy vehicles no one wants to buy, yet they are third in the world in terms of total revenue. As old Ahnold once said, they don't have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem, and the unions are part of it.

GM has these things called rubber rooms. This is where they send workers they have zero use for but can't fire because of the union. However the workers have to show up somewhere for 8 hours in order to get paid. So they sit in these rooms, so called because after 8 hours just sitting there you will go crazy. Kind of hard to make money when you literally pay employee's to sit around and do nothing.
 
pgwenthold said:
The UAW assembly-line factory workers in my area make $27 an hour.

That's twenty-seven dollars an hour.

I gotta tell ya, I seriously doubt the marginal production of such a worker is anywhere _close_ to $27. Personally, I doubt it is anywhere close to minimum wage, even, but that's the cost.
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So assuming they are employed all year (and don't spend months being laid-off) they make about $54k per year, or mid to upper middle-class.

Is that so extravagent?

If that's comparable to what your wife makes, I'd suggest that people don't usually get into veterinary medicine to get rich.
 
Whoracle said:
GM has global revenue of almost $200 billion. That's what, third in the world of all companies? How does a company selling that much stuff lose money? I always hear that they make crummy vehicles no one wants to buy, yet they are third in the world in terms of total revenue. As old Ahnold once said, they don't have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem, and the unions are part of it.

GM has these things called rubber rooms. This is where they send workers they have zero use for but can't fire because of the union. However the workers have to show up somewhere for 8 hours in order to get paid. So they sit in these rooms, so called because after 8 hours just sitting there you will go crazy. Kind of hard to make money when you literally pay employee's to sit around and do nothing.
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I'm curious for my own knowledge... what kind of discussions lead both sides to agree to hold employees on the payroll that aren't working? What circumstances make someone that can't work, unfirable?
 
gnome said:
I'm curious for my own knowledge... what kind of discussions lead both sides to agree to hold employees on the payroll that aren't working? What circumstances make someone that can't work, unfirable?
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heh. I forget, what country are you from? Planet?
 
It was a concession for automation back in the early 80's so they could compete with Japan. GM created a job bank for employee's that would otherwise be fired. You can read the article I posted for more info. Just another reason why I hate unions, they hate technology and efficiency.
 
Presumably, GM agreed to union concessions expecting to still make a good profit. Sounds like they took a gamble and lost. Blaming the union is like blaming the obese kid for eating nothing but ice cream and candy when the parent just can't say no.

I'm not buying the price fixing comparison. Unions don't fix prices any more than employers do. They can't fix prices without the consent of the employer. If an employer (or union) makes a bad deal, thems the breaks.
 
GM agreed to the concessions because they had to. They gave the union concessions because it was the only way the union would go along with the plan. Which is the problem. They can't get anything done without doing something to make the union happy so they will go along with it. What are they going to do, nothing and hope everything turns out ok?
 
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