General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Jonnyclueless]

certainly much of the cargo had no expiry date.
construction materials and paper, for example.

The last flotilla didn't carry that kind of cargo. They had scooters and wheel chairs, cloths, and some medicine/medical supplies. All just thrown int the hull of the boat mixed together. The medical supplies consisted of expired cough medicine, and paracetamol which was set to expire a month after delivery and with unreadable labels. Well that was a month before the intended date, not after Hamas refused to allow entry of these supplies until they got their militants. Once again showing where their priorities were. They weren't concerned about the humanitarian supplies, they were concerned about getting the militants who instigated the fight on that flotilla. The specific flotilla which carried ZERO humanitarian cargo (the other 5 flotillas agreed to inspection and there was no conflict).

 

[The Fool]

How do you come up with these strawman arguments. Are we in the same forum or do you have someone interpreting the conversation with you that might be adding content for you?

What makes it occupied?

being occupied makes it occupied.

The fact that land that Israel is on the Palestinians claims is theirs. Hence they refuse to start a state unless they first have all the land they want. Do you not understand this absolutely simple concept? I am sure I most 5th graders can understand this.

They are currently trying to get support for declaring a state through the UN. Is this the "refusal" you are talking about?

is Iraq not a state?

its a state.

It's occupied, therefore it's impossible to be a state.

its certainly not occupied. Did you miss the election and the new government and all that stuff?

Yet it has a running functioning government. Did it cease to be a state when the US invaded?

no it didn't cease to be a state.

And they actually in the false scenario that you're trying to create which is that the land is indisputably theirs and not in dispute with the US. With Palestine, who's landis who's is in dispute. You just don't recognize one sides argument to the dispute, hence your inability to understand the situation and create these strawman arguments. Oh and your inability to actually explain what is stopping them from creating a state. Apparently if someone claims they are being occupied there is some magical force that prevents them from being able to declare a state. I can't tell until you actually explain the reason.

Its a bit ironic for you to claim I don't understand a situation.....seriously, your comprehension of what is and isn't a state is quite tenuous.

 

[The Fool]

Is this bizzaro world?

it appears so

 

[bikerdruid]

So can people please stop insulting our intelligence by trying to pretend this has anything to do with humanitarian aid? At least the Flotilla members have come to terms with this.

who is pretending?
anyone who believes that the motivation behind the flotilla is not primarily humanitarian aid, does not need me to insult their intelligence.
lack of intelligence is likely not their sole problem.

 

[DC]

who is pretending?
anyone who believes that the motivation behind the flotilla is not primarily humanitarian aid, does not need me to insult their intelligence.
lack of intelligence is likely not their sole problem.

humanitarian aid is evidently secondary in those flottilas.

 

[The Fool]

He was attempting to provide material aid to Hamas.

does this make Israel a terrorist state? if they allow humanitarian aid into Gaza......they are providing material aid to Hamas.

 

[mortimer]

its certainly not occupied. Did you miss the election and the new government and all that stuff?

So you agree that the Palestinian territories are not occupied, since the Palestinians had an "election and the new government and all that stuff", right? Or does "all that stuff" mean something different in the case of the Palestinians?

 

[The Fool]

So you agree that the Palestinian territories are not occupied, since the Palestinians had an "election and the new government and all that stuff", right? Or does "all that stuff" mean something different in the case of the Palestinians?

oh good grief mortimer.....

think about it.
Is the US blockading Iraq? Is the Iraqi government a semi autonomous authority?....is Gaza a member of the UN.. Is Hamas the government of a sovereign state? are you sure you are not trolling?


bizzaro world indeed.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

being occupied makes it occupied.

I didn't think you could answer that one.

They are currently trying to get support for declaring a state through the UN. Is this the "refusal" you are talking about?

Clearly not.

its a state.

But but but but but it's occupied. How can they have a state if they are occupied?

its certainly not occupied. Did you miss the election and the new government and all that stuff?

Did you miss the occupation part where the US is residing their? Beginning to realize you don't understand what occupation is, hence your answer being "it's occupied because it's occupied". Maybe it would be helpful if you give us your exact definition of what you think occupied means.

no it didn't cease to be a state.

Wonderful, now we're getting somewhere.

Its a bit ironic for you to claim I don't understand a situation.....seriously, your comprehension of what is and isn't a state is quite tenuous.

With every response, you just confirm my suspicions. I am now just dying to hear your definition of an occupation.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

oh good grief mortimer.....

think about it.
Is the US blockading Iraq? Is the Iraqi government a semi autonomous authority?....is Gaza a member of the UN.. Is Hamas the government of a sovereign state? are you sure you are not trolling?


bizzaro world indeed.

Remember when the USSR was no longer a state because the US set up a blockade?

 

[Jonnyclueless]

who is pretending?
anyone who believes that the motivation behind the flotilla is not primarily humanitarian aid, does not need me to insult their intelligence.
lack of intelligence is likely not their sole problem.

Again, you're insulting everyone's intelligence if you try to claim humanitarian aid has anything to do with the flotillas. You might as well be trying to convince us that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Only it requires even greater denial for this since even the members themselves have been forced to admit that humanitarian aid is not their goal.

I mean how can we possibly have a rational discussion when people still want to sit here and insist that the flotillas have anything to do with humanitarian aid?


The ONLY parties involved DENYING delivering humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza are the Flotilla activists and Hamas. NO ONE else.

 

[bikerdruid]

Again, you're insulting everyone's intelligence if you try to claim humanitarian aid has anything to do with the flotillas. You might as well be trying to convince us that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Only it requires even greater denial for this since even the members themselves have been forced to admit that humanitarian aid is not their goal.

I mean how can we possibly have a rational discussion when people still want to sit here and insist that the flotillas have anything to do with humanitarian aid?


The ONLY parties involved DENYING delivering humanitarian aid to the people in Gaza are the Flotilla activists and Hamas. NO ONE else.

wow.

 

[a_unique_person]

humanitarian aid is evidently secondary in those flottilas.

It is clearly also a non-violent protest about the Palestinian political situation. I would have thought people would be glad that non-violence was being used in preference to violence to protest.

 

[a_unique_person]

Two parties disagree on the terms. This is for UN recognition. What you did absolutely WAS cherry picking because you made claims that were directly contradicted by your own source. They are open to a Palestinian state. The two parties dispute the exact terms. This does not mean they are blocking a Palestinian state being created, just one that Palestine requires in order to accept as a state. Israel is a state, there will be changes to the territories at some point on their end regardless of the outcome. Does that mean they are not a state because their territory will change? So why can Palestine not do the same and become a state while still negotiating territory?

If there are other options, please feel free to list them. How can Israel protect itself from Hamas without intervening?

You just said, two parties are involved in the Palestinians being allowed to declare that they are a state. Therefore, the Palestinians are not allowed to unilaterally declare they are a state.

 

[Skeptic]

The claim that Hamas' genocidal intentions are due to Israeli "occupation" -- and not due to, well, its radical Islamic beliefs about the superiority of Muslims to all others and their right to enforce this superiority with murder and terror -- doesn't stand much scrutiny.

First of all it forgets what created the occupation: that is, the Arab attempt to wipe Israel off the map. So if anything it is Arab and Muslim imperialism and racism that created the occupation, not the other way around.

Second, even if it were all the Israelies' fault, numerous people and nations have been occupied or otherwise opressed throughout history. Yet the Kurds, Irish, Indians, Armenians, Poles, etc., etc., never called for wiping Turkey or England or the USA or the USSR off the face of the earth; even the Jews after the holocaust had not called for genocide against the Germans in retaliation. Yet this is what Hamas and the PLO openly call for -- Hamas directly, the PLO in slightly euphemistic terms such as the "right of return", refusal to agree to the end of the conflict, etc., etc.

Yet folks here support these terrorist movements, go figure. I can undestand wanting a Palestinian state in return for peace; but when people support it as part of the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction or simply think Hamas is in the right, hwo can they claim to be for "peace"?

 

[DC]

It is clearly also a non-violent protest about the Palestinian political situation. I would have thought people would be glad that non-violence was being used in preference to violence to protest.

they planned to be non violent this time? wow something new.

 

[Skeptic]

Remember when the USSR was no longer a state because the US set up a blockade?

And Cuba was no longer a state because of the US blockade, and the UK and Germany in WWII each made the other non-states by attempting to create mutual blockades, etc.

Oh wait, blockade is only an evil war crime when Jews do it to Hamas, which wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.

 

[Skeptic]

The answer in Gaza to this question was a resounding "yes".

And that of the usual folks here is "yes, but it's all the Jews' fault".

 

[DC]

The claim that Hamas' genocidal intentions are due to Israeli "occupation" -- and not due to, well, its radical Islamic beliefs about the superiority of Muslims to all others and their right to enforce this superiority with murder and terror -- doesn't stand much scrutiny.

First of all it forgets what created the occupation: that is, the Arab attempt to wipe Israel off the map. So if anything it is Arab and Muslim imperialism and racism that created the occupation, not the other way around.
Second, even if it were all the Israelies' fault, numerous people and nations have been occupied or otherwise opressed throughout history. Yet the Kurds, Irish, Indians, Armenians, Poles, etc., etc., never called for wiping Turkey or England or the USA or the USSR off the face of the earth; even the Jews after the holocaust had not called for genocide against the Germans in retaliation. Yet this is what Hamas and the PLO openly call for -- Hamas directly, the PLO in slightly euphemistic terms such as the "right of return", refusal to agree to the end of the conflict, etc., etc.

Yet folks here support these terrorist movements, go figure. I can undestand wanting a Palestinian state in return for peace; but when people support it as part of the "staged plan" for Israel's destruction or simply think Hamas is in the right, hwo can they claim to be for "peace"?

So you think other nations would react very different? say when the UN declares Dakotha as the Republic of Lakotah? and will the reaction of the US be driven by imperialism and racism? is it US racism and imperialism that stops the USA from accepting the Republic of Lakotah?

 

[Skeptic]

You are wasting your breath trying to explain things to the usual gang here. It's not that the usual gang here doesn't undestand what "theocracy", "occupation", "state", "Blockade", etc. is; they undestand it very well.

It's just that they're trying to find that magic super-secret definition that will make Israel a "theocracy" while getting England (where the queen is also the head of the Church) off the hook, make the blockade of Gaza an "occupation" while somehow not making the British blockade of Gemany in WWI (or any other naval blockade anywhere else in history) into one, make self-defense against terrorist attacks a "war crime" for the Jews but not for any other nation, etc., etc., etc.

Since words like, say, "occupation" mean one thing for them when it is applied to the Jews and something completely different when it applies to anybody else, it is no wonder one cannot pin down what they "really mean" by it and they claim they are constantly "misunderstood". But what they really mean is quite clear: the Jews are to be held to a special unfair standard, which applies only to them, so as to be condemned and shunned.