General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Leumas]

How ya gonna get millions of Palestinians from the West Bank into Gaza?

Cattle cars? Death march through the desert?

Like this... and/or like this...

From here

Some recognized genocides, such as the Holocaust and the genocide of the Tutsis in Rwanda, took place over specific periods of time and were characterized by mass killings. But colonial genocide is a slow-moving process. The policies of colonial destruction of Indigenous peoples took place insidiously and over decades. The acts of violence and intent to destroy are structural, systemic and cut across multiple administrations and political leaders.

 

[webfusion]

How ya gonna get millions of Palestinians from the West Bank into Gaza?

Cattle cars? Death march through the desert?

Motor coaches. VanHools and Volvos.
The encouragement to go to the NewState and be afforded a rather generous supply of
Money. Opportunity. Housing.
How does ANY State come into being?
How did Israel come into existence? Money. Opportunity. Housing.
(800,000 Jews from all over the Arab world got kicked out of those Muslim countries in the early 1950's and arrived here with little more than the clothes on their backs)

 

[Hercules56]

Motor coaches. VanHools and Volvos.
The encouragement to go to the NewState and be afforded a rather generous supply of
Money. Opportunity. Housing.
How does ANY State come into being?
How did Israel come into existence? Money. Opportunity. Housing.
(800,000 Jews from all over the Arab world got kicked out of those Muslim countries in the early 1950's and arrived here with little more than the clothes on their backs)

The Palestinians in the West Bank already have homes. The only way you can get them to move to Gaza is by force. At the barrel of a gun, threat of death. You gonna do that?

 

[webfusion]

https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-palestine-war-gaza-left-tearing-itself-apart

The Left is in paroxysms of pain.
Their world is coming apart.
HAMAS has basically screwed them all, from France to Spain to Italy to Canada.

 

[webfusion]

The Palestinians in the West Bank already have homes. The only way you can get them to move to Gaza is by force. At the barrel of a gun, threat of death. You gonna do that?

You are being very racist, by assuming that Palestinians ANYWHERE (Paris, London, Toronto, Detroit, Ramallah, Jenin, etc) are incapable of packing their stuff and taking advantage of an international support effort to build a NewState.

Let's just say, I'm a Palestinian who manages to earn $4,000 annually for my entire family.
My home is a tin shack.
I'm handed keys to a beautiful home, I'm provided work in the hotels/resorts, and I can earn $40,000 a year and my kids get to attend Gaza University on a full scholarship. I'll be able to travel freely without having to ever talk to or see an Israeli Jew checking my credentials, with two paid vacations annually, at first from elArish airfield, and then, from Yassir Arafat International. If I want to visit the Islamic Holy Sites, I'll be up into Hebron and al-Quds on a high-speed maglev link (20 minutes). Or, if I prefer, the Saudis will issue me a Pilgrimage Voucher that entails an all-expenses covered Haj journey.

THAT's what awaits millions of Palestinians, if they're interested.

 

[Hercules56]

You are being very racist, by assuming that Palestinians ANYWHERE (Paris, London, Toronto, Detroit, Ramallah, Jenin, etc) are incapable of packing their stuff and taking advantage of an international support effort to build a NewState....

Says the guy who is calling for millions of Muslims to be ethnically cleansed to a tiny little desert prison, so as to create Lebensraum for Der Judenstaat.

The only way you will get millions of Muslims to abandon their homes and their lands in the West Bank, is by threat of death. The world will not allow this to occur.

I guess the USA and Canada can handle 6 million Jewish refugees but it wont be pretty.

 

[webfusion]

Says the guy who is calling for millions of Muslims to be ethnically cleansed to a tiny little desert prison, so as to create Lebensraum for Der Judenstaat.

The only way you will get millions of Muslims to abandon their homes and their lands in the West Bank, is by threat of death. The world will not allow this to occur.

I guess the USA and Canada can handle 6 million Jewish refugees but it wont be pretty.

The land area of the West Bank is 2,173 sq. miles. It's rugged terrain, and landlocked.
Israel is 8,550 sq.miles. (including a vast uninhabited desert of the Arava and Negev).
Did you ever consider that we Jews consider this a 'little desert prison" (no way out from North, East, South and the sea to our backs). Right now, we're being beseiged as airlines refuse to fly here. Ships are cancelling (Royal Caribbean announces they're not booking trips here for 2024). ElAl is converting aircraft to cargo configuration, to assist in supplying the nation, as primary cargo airlines have abandoned this route.

When I tell you that Gaza has not yet seen the worst of our counter-attack, that's the truth.
Don't get too far ahead of yourself talking about how the WestBank Palestinians will fare.

 

[Hercules56]

The land area of the West Bank is 2,173 sq. miles. It's rugged terrain, and landlocked.
Israel is 8,550 sq.miles. (including a vast uninhabited desert of the Arava and Negev).
Did you ever consider that we Jews consider this a 'little desert prison" (no way out from North, East, South and the sea to our backs). Right now, we're being beseiged as airlines refuse to fly here. Ships are cancelling (Royal Caribbean announces they're not booking trips here for 2024). ElAl is converting aircraft to cargo configuration, to assist in supplying the nation, as primary cargo airlines have abandoned this route.

When I tell you that Gaza has not yet seen the worst of our counter-attack, that's the truth.
Don't get too far ahead of yourself talking about how the WestBank Palestinians will fare.

You didn't answer my question. How you gonna get the Arabs out of the West Bank if they refuse to leave? Via cattle car? Death march through the desert?

Best be careful, those nukes on the American sub could target Tehran, Damascus, Beirut..... or Tel Aviv.

 

[Leumas]

You didn't answer my question. How you gonna get the Arabs out of the West Bank if they refuse to leave? Via cattle car? Death march through the desert?

By using that false epithet.

Calling the Palestinians Arabs because they speak Arabic is like calling the Mexican natives Hispanics because they speak Spanish.

And then the Xenophobic supremacist Settler Colonialists use fallacies and propaganda such as "Land Without a people for a people without a land" and "Squatters" and then turn around and say "they are arabs and there are many arab states why don't they just go there to where they came from and leave us poor oppressed homeless Settler Colonialists with that little piece of land that does not belong to them... but was promised by the god 65% of us do not believe in to a guy 100% of sane people know was a myth".

Insisting on falsely labeling the Palestinians, "Arabs" is like insisting on calling the Australian Aborigine, or the Inuits... British.

Arabs... just like the mythical Hebrews of the Bible were conquerors and pillages of Palestine and just like the Egyptians and Assyrians and Babylonians and Persians and Greeks and Romans and Franks and British... and the most recent Europeans from Germany and Poland and Russia... and INDIA and Africa and USA and England etc. etc.

Best be careful, those nukes on the American sub could target Tehran, Damascus, Beirut..... or Tel Aviv.

Oops... sorry it was a technical error... and life goes on.

 

[webfusion]

You didn't answer my question. How you gonna get the Arabs out of the West Bank if they refuse to leave? Via cattle car? Death march through the desert?

I did answer, plainly.

Palestinians want a better life. They are no different than anyone who realizes the advantages of moving to somewhere other than where they are.
I provided a list of advantages, and TheWorld™ would certainly offer the financial means and the impetus for it all to come about.

Dude, it's just a distance of 37 miles from Gaza to Hebron. They can take an Uber (in Israel it's GETT).

 

[Leumas]

I did answer, plainly.

Palestinians want a better life. They are no different than anyone who realizes the advantages of moving to somewhere other than where they are.
I provided a list of advantages, and TheWorld™ would certainly offer the financial means and the impetus for it all to come about.

Dude, it's just a distance of 37 miles from Gaza to Hebron. They can take an Uber (in Israel it's GETT).

Why don't the Israelis do the same?

Why not let the Palestinians go to Canada or America or England... why a desert in Egypt?

REVERSE EXODUS!!!

 

[webfusion]

Why don't the Israelis do the same?

Why not let the Palestinians go to Canada or America or England... why a desert in Egypt?

REVERSE EXODUS!!!

Palestinians already go to Canada, America, England, France, Spain, Germany, wherever...

But, as you should know, N.Sinai was part of 'Historical Palestine' and in 1982, half of the area of "Palestinian Lands" in the town of Rafah was truncated and cut-off by the Egyptians building a fence. Families were divided, the free passage of Palestinians was restricted, access to elArish was denied.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle...982-rafah-a-town-divided-20220111-p59nic.html

How is it possible that people cannot even recall what happened in 1982?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The suggestion was dismissed by most of Israel’s interlocutors — who include the United States and Britain — because of the risk that such a mass displacement could become permanent. These countries fear that such a development might destabilize Egypt and lock significant numbers of Palestinians out of their homeland, according to the diplomats, who spoke anonymously in order to discuss a sensitive matter more freely.

Curious, then, that one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any peace deal has been the so-called 'right of return' of Palestinian 'refugees'.
First- to explain the quote marks. For centuries, 'Palestinian' meant anyone living in Palestine: the current usage denoting a distinct and separate nation is essentially a fiction. The vast majority of them were itinerant, migratory labourers, following seasonal work around the region. Many of them- as has been noted here before- were not originally from Palestine, and a fair number of them were not even Arabs. Some of them arrived as recently as 1946.
Fast-forward to the present day. There are now millions of self-identifying Palestinians in the Middle East. Most of them were not born in either the West Bank or Gaza, and most have never visited Palestine.
The 'right of return' to homes they may well have only occupied fleetingly, and on a temporary basis, which a good number left of their own volition (there is massive argument among historians to this day about how many were forced off and how many left of their own free will), and to which most Palestinians today have very little connection is not the absolute, written-in-stone moral imperative that many seem to believe it to be.
Now, if they were somehow allowed to enter Israel, that would massively destabilise that country. To allow some 5 million immigrants into a nation of 9 million, and moreover, immigrants that do not share any of the cultural or religious values of Israel, and who in all likelihood hate Israel and hate the Jews, would destroy Israel as we know it.
I suspect this is the real reason for the dogged insistence on the 'right if return': it's more about how this would destroy Israel from the inside out, rather than a genuine desire to see families return to claimed ancestral roots that are highly tenuous. This is merely my opinion, though.
Please note that I am not in any way denying that Arabs were forced off their land. The creation of Israel was a calamity for many Palestinian Arabs. However, demanding an action that realistically could not be achieved, is not helpful.
For some to oppose temporarily settling Palestinians in Egypt, on the grounds that it would destabilise that country, whilst simultaneously insisting on the permanent destabilisation of Israel though an almost identical action, appears to me to be hypocritical and misguided.

 

[Hercules56]

By using that false epithet.

Calling the Palestinians Arabs because they speak Arabic is like calling the Mexican natives Hispanics because they speak Spanish.

And then the Xenophobic supremacist Settler Colonialists use fallacies and propaganda such as "Land Without a people for a people without a land" and "Squatters" and then turn around and say "they are arabs and there are many arab states why don't they just go there to where they came from and leave us poor oppressed homeless Settler Colonialists with that little piece of land that does not belong to them... but was promised by the god 65% of us do not believe in to a guy 100% of sane people know was a myth".

Insisting on falsely labeling the Palestinians, "Arabs" is like insisting on calling the Australian Aborigine, or the Inuits... British.

Arabs... just like the mythical Hebrews of the Bible were conquerors and pillages of Palestine and just like the Egyptians and Assyrians and Babylonians and Persians and Greeks and Romans and Franks and British... and the most recent Europeans from Germany and Poland and Russia... and INDIA and Africa and USA and England etc. etc.





Oops... sorry it was a technical error... and life goes on.

The Palestinians aren't Arabs???

LOL, since when?

And how is this an insult?

Weird man, just weird.

 

[Leumas]

The Palestinians aren't Arabs???

LOL, since when?

And how is this an insult?

Weird man, just weird.

Another example of this

...little knowledge of history.Nothing is more danerous then somebody who has a little knowledge of something but thinks he is an expert.

 

[Hercules56]

By using that false epithet.

Calling the Palestinians Arabs because they speak Arabic is like calling the Mexican natives Hispanics because they speak Spanish.

And then the Xenophobic supremacist Settler Colonialists use fallacies and propaganda such as "Land Without a people for a people without a land" and "Squatters" and then turn around and say "they are arabs and there are many arab states why don't they just go there to where they came from and leave us poor oppressed homeless Settler Colonialists with that little piece of land that does not belong to them... but was promised by the god 65% of us do not believe in to a guy 100% of sane people know was a myth".

Insisting on falsely labeling the Palestinians, "Arabs" is like insisting on calling the Australian Aborigine, or the Inuits... British.

Arabs... just like the mythical Hebrews of the Bible were conquerors and pillages of Palestine and just like the Egyptians and Assyrians and Babylonians and Persians and Greeks and Romans and Franks and British... and the most recent Europeans from Germany and Poland and Russia... and INDIA and Africa and USA and England etc. etc.





Oops... sorry it was a technical error... and life goes on.

Suggesting that it is pejorative or insult to call the Palestinians "Arabs" is one of the most historically flawed arguments I have ever seen on this forum. You should really step back immediately before you dig all the way to China.

Seriously. I don't want to release the kraken but I will if you force me.

 

[webfusion]

Cosmic Yak, I really appreciated the 'right to return' argument you demolished in post #53 above (Refugees).
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I am counting the days until that feeble fence across the Philadelphi route is smashed down by the crush of civilians gathering in that sector after leaving the north of Gaza, and the "border crossing" at Rafah is breached, with the Palestinians of Sinai and the Palestinians of Gaza reuniting, and maybe, just maybe, taking matters into their own hands, and bypassing Hamas.

 

[Leumas]

Suggesting that it is pejorative or insult to call the Palestinians "Arabs" is one of the most historically flawed arguments I have ever seen on this forum. You should really step back immediately before you dig all the way to China.

Seriously. I don't want to release the kraken but I will if you force me.

I did not say it is a "pejorative or insult" did I?

I suggest you read my post carefully and think about it before you start strawmanning it.

And while you are at it find out the HISTORY that you evidently do not know.

After that if you still need any further explanation of what I said then I can elucidate further.

 

[webfusion]

I did not say it is a "pejorative or insult" did I?
I suggest you read my post carefully and think about it before you start strawmanning it.

And while you are at it find out the HISTORY that you evidently do not know.

After that if you still need any further explanation of what I said then I can elucidate further.

Leaumas, I am pretty sure you used the word epithet (which is a synonym of "insult" and "perjorative")

"An epithet is a term of abuse." -- from Oxford Dictionary.

By the way, your posts are becoming increasingly more and more personal, and condescending.
Post your arguments, your links, your ongoing references, your opinions.
Keep elucidating, it's entertaining (and yes, even educational).

 

[Hercules56]

I did not say it is a "pejorative or insult" did I?

I suggest you read my post carefully and think about it before you start strawmanning it.

And while you are at it find out the HISTORY that you evidently do not know.

After that if you still need any further explanation of what I said then I can elucidate further.

Your claim, is ignorantly absurd.

See the updated 1968 Charter for the Palestine Liberation Organization:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp

Article 1:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2:
Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 4:
The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Article 5:
The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.