General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

[Brainster]

No... but they are as repugnant as a rapist who makes a video mocking his rape victim.

Yes, yes, every bit as repugnant as a rapist who... wait, what?

 

[Thermal]

Or you could read a book....

This is a discussion forum. It's not a screening for interminably long videos, where we watch for over an hour of fluff to get a three sentence answer.

 

[webfusion]

Heavy doubts, here. I'd give odds that they might disburse and disappear temporarily, but hate like that doesn't surrender. Al-Quaeda didn't surrender either. It may be decimated but the ideology just morphs into a new boss, same as the old boss.

Maybe the word surrender isn't the right one. A surrender process in the past involved the leaders of the group being decimated going with a 'white flag' and submitting to the victors.
In the 20th Century, we witnessed several surrenders of note. (i.e. - Japan)
https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/120305/9/IsrLR Surrender Article.pdf

Maybe we'll have to revise the entire concept of surrender?
"Given the centrality of the rule of surrender to realizing the humanitarian objective of
international humanitarian law, it is paramount that those involved in armed conflict are aware of
what conduct constitutes an act of surrender under international humanitarian law and thus when
its attendant legal obligation to ceasefire is triggered."

In other words, Hamas needs to be told in no uncertain terms that their leaders are obligated to surrender (coming out of hiding while waving the white flag) in order to obtain a ceasefire and cessation of IDF attacks. The leaders of Hamas are pure cowards, so I don't think they'll do so.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Maybe the word surrender isn't the right one. A surrender process in the past involved the leaders of the group being decimated going with a 'white flag' and submitting to the victors.
In the 20th Century, we witnessed several surrenders of note. (i.e. - Japan)
https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/120305/9/IsrLR Surrender Article.pdf

Maybe we'll have to revise the entire concept of surrender?
"Given the centrality of the rule of surrender to realizing the humanitarian objective of
international humanitarian law, it is paramount that those involved in armed conflict are aware of
what conduct constitutes an act of surrender under international humanitarian law and thus when
its attendant legal obligation to ceasefire is triggered."

In other words, Hamas needs to be told in no uncertain terms that their leaders are obligated to surrender (coming out of hiding while waving the white flag) in order to obtain a ceasefire and cessation of IDF attacks. The leaders of Hamas are pure cowards, so I don't think they'll do so.

SO you want a surrender where a few Hamas military leaders get tried, the entire political arm and their supreme leader remains in place, Israel invests massive amounts of money in repairing the infrastructure they damaged, takes responsibility for the defense of Gaza for the next 70 odd years and Palestinians otherwise have to take no responsibility for their part in this war at all? Oh and those involved in the worst excesses against humanity can start up companies and become rich?

 

[webfusion]

SO you want a surrender where a few Hamas military leaders get tried, the entire political arm and their supreme leader remains in place, Israel invests massive amounts of money in repairing the infrastructure they damaged, takes responsibility for the defense of Gaza for the next 70 odd years and Palestinians otherwise have to take no responsibility for their part in this war at all? Oh and those involved in the worst excesses against humanity can start up companies and become rich?

According to many, the Palestinians have no responsibility, this entire fiasco is 100% the fault of Israel.

"**** Israel" is a common phrase heard throughout the world this week.
Yesterday, at the fenceline of the White House, American Secret Service agents, assigned to maintain security at the official residence of POTUS, were cursed ( "**** You" was the favorite phrase) and several kefiyyeh-masked people attempted to breach into the grounds.

SO, yeah, a Hamas-announced official surrender would work for me. Their rejection of that will take whatever shape it takes.

 

[The Atheist]

When you get fired for saying the private bit out loud:

Asked in an interview with ultra-orthodox radio station Radio Kol Berama whether an atomic bomb should be dropped on the enclave, junior heritage minister Amichai Eliyahu said “this is one of the possibilities.”

During the interview, the politician also said he objected to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza, saying “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” and that “there is no such thing as non-combatants in Gaza.”

j/k lol

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middl...uspended-for-saying-nuking-gaza-was-an-option

 

[webfusion]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-quietly-pushed-egypt-admit-164653026.html

NYT writer Patrick Kingsley provides behind-the-scenes information about the Israelis seeking to evacuate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians across the Rafah border into N. Sinai.

“We expect not only the Egyptians, but the entire international community to make a genuine effort to support and accept the (displaced) residents of Gaza.” -- Danny Danon

 

[Hercules56]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-quietly-pushed-egypt-admit-164653026.html

NYT writer Patrick Kingsley provides behind-the-scenes information about the Israelis seeking to evacuate hundreds of thousands of Palestinians across the Rafah border into N. Sinai.

“We expect not only the Egyptians, but the entire international community to make a genuine effort to support and accept the (displaced) residents of Gaza.” -- Danny Danon

The suggestion was dismissed by most of Israel’s interlocutors — who include the United States and Britain — because of the risk that such a mass displacement could become permanent. These countries fear that such a development might destabilize Egypt and lock significant numbers of Palestinians out of their homeland, according to the diplomats, who spoke anonymously in order to discuss a sensitive matter more freely.

 

[webfusion]

These other countries are not waging a war for their very existence.

Let me just mention one thing here -- if the Palestinian HAMAS thinks that loud and violent mass demonstrations in London, or Paris, or DC or anywhere, will get the Israelis to back off and let things return to "as they were" they're completely mistaken.

Both Gallant and Gantz are firmly committed to making sure that HAMAS never again has the opportunity to attack Israel from Gaza. If it requires producing 1-million refugees, then that's what's going to happen. The choice now is for HAMAS to consider. Are they going to continue with this madness, or bring it to a close with the release of living hostages to the Red Cross?
(The cadavers can be discussed after the rockets from Gaza stop).

 

[Hercules56]

These other countries are not waging a war for their very existence.

Let me just mention one thing here -- if the Palestinian HAMAS thinks that loud and violent mass demonstrations in London, or Paris, or DC or anywhere, will get the Israelis to back off and let things return to "as they were" they're completely mistaken.

Both Gallant and Gantz are firmly committed to making sure that HAMAS never again has the opportunity to attack Israel from Gaza. If it requires producing 1-million refugees, then that's what's going to happen. The choice now is for HAMAS to consider. Are they going to continue with this madness, or bring it to a close with the release of living hostages to the Red Cross?
(The cadavers can be discussed after the rockets from Gaza stop).

I always appreciate good comical hyperbole, but Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel's very existence. At most, they are an evil nuisance.

 

[Dr.Sid]

I always appreciate good comical hyperbole, but Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel's very existence. At most, they are an evil nuisance.

Thousands of rockets are hardly "a nuisance". 1500 dead civilians are hardly "a nuisance".

 

[Leumas]

The suggestion was dismissed by most of Israel’s interlocutors — who include the United States and Britain — because of the risk that such a mass displacement could becoame permanent

That is what happened in 1947/8 and 1965... and has been going on for decades ALREADY.

The Palestinian refugees are many and the camps are numerous... loooong before the excuses they are making now... and there was no Hamas back then.

Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

These countries fear that such a development might destabilize Egypt and lock significant numbers of Palestinians out of their homeland, according to the diplomats, who spoke anonymously in order to discuss a sensitive matter more freely.

And why they do not mention these anymore?

in the aftermath of the hostilities of June 1967 and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, ten camps were established to accommodate a new wave of displaced persons, both refugees and non-refugees.

Or is it that every time there is a new Ethnic Cleansing the old ones get forgotten and the clock and the count gets reset?

 

[webfusion]

Hercules56, you apparently misunderstand the nature of HAMAS.

The head of the CIA William Burns has now arrived in Israel. Also, an unusual announcement was made by the Pentagon that a nuclear-armed sub is now positioned in the eastern Med.

If you think that this war is just an exercise in futility by the IDF, I'm pretty sure you're going to find out otherwise.

Israel is fighting for it's life. That's just the way it is. We cannot continue with this threat over our heads (literally).
It is a mistake for pundits to invent scenarios that assume a “day after” as if this were a conventional war that will clearly and cleanly give way to agreed or imposed postwar arrangements.

Gazan governance may be so seriously undermined that political disintegration accompanied by social and economic deterioration are far more likely than any ideal (or even manageable) arrangements.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Nuclear armed sub can hit Middle East from anywhere, that's just silly. The whole point of nuclear armed sub is you don't know where it is.

 

[Leumas]

I always appreciate good comical hyperbole, but Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel's very existence. At most, they are an evil nuisance.

Yes they do... but not in the way he pretends...

If these wretched victims of Israel's settler colonialism and apartheid and ethnic cleansing are not swept away then sooner or later the consciousness of someone might force a One State solution since Israel already rendered the two states arrantly impossible.

If Israel is forced to integrate its VICTIMS in a just and lasting solution of ONE STATE... like in Afrikaans South Africa... the racist xenophobic supremacists consider that to be an existential danger for the JEWISH ONLY settler colonialist state.

 

[webfusion]

... Or is it that every time there is a new Ethnic Cleansing the old ones get forgotten and the clock and the count gets reset?

There are around 5-million 'refugees' (at last dubious count) and they say it's a vital goal to establish themselves into a PalestineState.

OK, then let's see something viable. This "two-state" mantra is useless and anyone trying to again foist 1949 Lines on Israel will be in for a rude awakening.

The establishment of a basis for a NewPalestineState in Gaza/expanded into N. Sinai is being arranged as we speak. That conversation will be taking place with CIA Director Burns in Jerusalem.

This war is indeed a reset. About time.

 

[Leumas]

This war is indeed a reset.

Yes... so all this Hamas claptrap is nothing but a ruse and and excuse... much like the USA used 9/11 as an excuse to raze Iraq and Libya and and and.

About time.

For the Final Solution... thanks for admitting the truth.

OK, then let's see something viable. This "two-state" mantra is useless and anyone trying to again foist 1949 Lines on Israel will be in for a rude awakening.

Thanks again for admitting the truth yet again.... and that all those alleged peace talks were nothing but chicanery and biding time.

The establishment of a basis for a NewPalestineState in Gaza/expanded into N. Sinai is being arranged as we speak. That conversation will be taking place with CIA Director Burns in Jerusalem.

Thanks yet again for telling the truth about the ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide to facilitate the Final Solution.


The victims of abuse have indeed become abusers themselves.

 

[Hercules56]

There are around 5-million 'refugees' (at last dubious count) and they say it's a vital goal to establish themselves into a PalestineState.

OK, then let's see something viable. This "two-state" mantra is useless and anyone trying to again foist 1949 Lines on Israel will be in for a rude awakening.

The establishment of a basis for a NewPalestineState in Gaza/expanded into N. Sinai is being arranged as we speak. That conversation will be taking place with CIA Director Burns in Jerusalem.

This war is indeed a reset. About time.

How ya gonna get millions of Palestinians from the West Bank into Gaza?

Cattle cars? Death march through the desert?

 

[webfusion]

Nuclear armed sub can hit Middle East from anywhere, that's just silly. The whole point of nuclear armed sub is you don't know where it is.

I heard that Israelis are lining up along the coastal beaches with binoculars, to catch a glimpse of this sub.

(Cue the scene from Spielberg's "1941" with the ferris wheel and Claude & Herbie and the dummy)

 

[Hercules56]

Hercules56, you apparently misunderstand the nature of HAMAS.

The head of the CIA William Burns has now arrived in Israel. Also, an unusual announcement was made by the Pentagon that a nuclear-armed sub is not positioned in the eastern Med.

If you think that this war is just an exercise in futility by the IDF, I'm pretty sure you're going to find out otherwise.

Israel is fighting for it's life.....

Silly, ignorant hyperbole dismissed.