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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

Oh, and I'd like to say this:

27°C is still 10° below average human body temperature. The screenshotted weather reports, though, also show minimum overnight temperatures of around 17°. That's cold, especially when you're wet, your clothes are wet, your bed is wet, and the blanket that you have to share with your children is wet. Water is a heat sink - it pulls heat from the body. Mud is even worse. Palestinians living in tents because the Zionists blasted their homes to rubble can't get dry when it's raining.
 
NatalieSalat said:
"The atomic bombings were state terrorism and a war crime".

"Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh! The NLF is Going to Win!".

"Blood for Oil" / "The only heroes are those who help to defeat the U.S. military".
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Since you used the first person plural "we" in your scurrilous made-up quote, can you point to any of us self-identified lefties posting in this thread who have said anything like that?
 
IDF documented as committing war crimes. The casual way they do this makes it likely that this is not the first time this has happened. To summarise Palestinians who surrendered to IDF were taken away by the IDF and executed. Israeli minister has defended this as the Palestinians were terrorists. Even accepting this dubious claim, the execution of unarmed combatants who have surrendered is clearly a war crime.
www.bbc.co.uk

West Bank: Israeli troops kill two Palestinians after they appear to surrender

The Palestinian Authority says the killings are a "war crime", while an Israeli minister backed the soldiers.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
https://twitter.com/x/status/1994133431001977142
 
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Non-Jewish I Israeli citizens are treated very differently from jewish citizens - not a secular state.
“There is no such thing as a Jewish terrorist.”
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IDF arrests Palestinian documenting Jewish terrorism.
Testimony about IDF using palestinian children as human shields
https://twitter.com/x/status/1994013530589196665
https://twitter.com/x/status/1993400274069995725
 
NatalieSalat said:
If anyone thinks that the Israeli electorate will tolerate a Palestinian state on its borders after 7/10, they are delusional.
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Not having a palestinian state hasn't been a success, perhaps having one would be better, one where Palestinians can feel they aren't treated as subhumans, denied rights, killed, abused, harassed, tortured. Not having a Palestinian state for the last seventy years hasn't guaranteed Israel security, perhaps having a functioning Palestinian state would be more successful?
 
I think it says a lot when one people's pride is considered more valuable than another's people's existence.
 
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Planigale said:
Not having a palestinian state hasn't been a success, perhaps having one would be better, one where Palestinians can feel they aren't
treated as subhumans, denied rights, killed, abused, harassed, tortured.
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That is what the Palestinians have already. However, it's their own Government (HAMAS) which is denying rights, and killing, abusing, harrassing and torturing.

www.amnesty.org

Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict

Hamas forces carried out a brutal campaign of abductions, torture and unlawful killings against Palestinians accused of “collaborating” with Israel and others during Israel’s military offensive against Gaza in July and August 2014, according to a new report by Amnesty International. ‘Strangling...
www.amnesty.org www.amnesty.org

Planigale said:
Not having a Palestinian state for the last seventy years hasn't guaranteed Israel security, perhaps having a functioning Palestinian state would be more successful?
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"Functioning" is the key word.

I've noted several times previously my preferred operational path towards a neighborly and functional Gaza NewState.
(See: Green Zones in the strip, being created by IDF for those local tribes who oppose HAMAS).

Until the death of Abu Mazan (90 years old), no effort is going to proceed towards a PalestineState.
His successor may be able to work out a rapproachment... not holding my breath.
 
catsmate said:
Further evidence of organised Israeli murder campaign from Jean-Pierre Filiu, one of the few independent sources the Israelis didn't keep out of Gaza.

www.theguardian.com

Convincing evidence Israel backed aid convoy looters in Gaza, historian says

Account of visit to Gaza by French professor describes Israeli military attacks on security personnel protecting convoys
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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There was no description of any 'organized Israeli murder campaign' in that article.

However, there was a mention by Filiu about HAMAS in Gaza: (last paragraphs)

“...Gaza is probably the place on Earth where Hamas is the most unpopular because in Gaza they know Hamas [and] don’t have any illusions about the reality of Islamist domination and the brutality of its rules.”


+++++++++++++++++
As for your claim that media were 'kept out of gaza' ---

www.jpost.com

How the IDF fights against war on information in Gaza | The Jerusalem Post

IDF Spokesperson for Int’l Media Lt.-Col. Nadav Shoshani reveals to ‘Magazine’ art of handling the media and public during two years of unprecedented war
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

(The primary restriction on entry was obviously for operational reasons, as IDF was advancing in force and had little time nor patience for keeping track of a gaggle of foreign media running around in harms' way).
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Your point being that the terrorist Settlers are actual Representatives of Israel?
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Loaded question.

The Great Zaganza said:
I think it says a lot when one people's pride is considered more valuable than another's people's existence.
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You do know Hamas have consistently been the aggressors, right? For literally decades?

Including the attack that started this war?

And they're the ones who don't want Israel to exist, while Israel would rather leave Palestine alone?

It's not about "honor", it's about 20+ years of Hamas trying to mass murder people in Israel, with unguided missiles and terrorist attacks, even before 10/7.

Heck, Palestine doesn't even have national level elections. Israel does. They're automatically less tyrannical and more democratic than Palestine in that aspect.

Hamas also likes casualties on their side, because they can be blamed on Israel, even when Hamas launches missiles from civilian areas. Oh, and tells Palestinians to ignore Israel's strike warnings.
 
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arthwollipot said:
This is from that notable source of Hamas propaganda, B'Tselem:

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I notice that the first two parts don't mention how Israel has, for decades, demonstrably gone out of its way to try and reduce civilian casualties.

Which it did even before the current war.


And doesn't source a single solitary claim on the page, other than the UN Definition of Genocide.

It also only acknowledges the actual casus belli after repeatedly saying Israel is committing genocide. I call this "false reasonableness".

You stack the deck in your favor, and then pretend to acknowledge the counterargument.

It also refers to Oct 7th as "a terrible milestone in a long history of violence and killing." and mentions some Israeli hostages are "still being held in Gaza".

Also, "One crime does not justify another – certainly not the mass killing of civilians or an attempt to erase and destroy an entire group."

Notice how they've completely elided what the actual crime of Oct 7th was, besides "violence", "killing", and taking hostages. They don't even use the term "mass murder" or "mass killing" for the Oct 7th attack.

And frankly, even if this was more explicit, this is obviously less extreme than claiming Israel's committing "genocide".

Weird how we're now only talking about the actual actions, and not the assumed intent behind them.

Weird how the supposed authority uses the same "cherry-picked quotes from Israeli officials without sources or context" trick I see on tumblr all the time.

Except without the actual quotes.

Also, the site's about page basically says it's anti-Israel. And always has been. It is explicitly against a two-state solution, in Palestine's favor.

*I like how this guy blames Israel for not collecting casualty info from Palestine. Which they are at war with, and it is controlled by a regime that's the sole source for casualty numbers and has every motive to lie.
 
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Anyone here old enough to remember that the western (in my case, Australian) left supported Indonesia's annexation of Netherlands New Guinea when Sukarno took it and hated Gough Whitlam for not being a socialist and for not being from a working-class union background?
 
000063 said:
Loaded question.


You do know Hamas have consistently been the aggressors, right? For literally decades?

Including the attack that started this war?

And they're the ones who don't want Israel to exist, while Israel would rather leave Palestine alone?

It's not about "honor", it's about 20+ years of Hamas trying to mass murder people in Israel, with unguided missiles and terrorist attacks, even before 10/7.

Heck, Palestine doesn't even have national level elections. Israel does. They're automatically less tyrannical and more democratic than Palestine in that aspect.

Hamas also likes casualties on their side, because they can be blamed on Israel, even when Hamas launches missiles from civilian areas. Oh, and tells Palestinians to ignore Israel's strike warnings.
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You will not get an honest response to this excellent post.
 
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