Galloway is back

[Croydon Bob]

It shows how low Galloway has sunk that him denouncing Holocaust denial is something of note.

No. He wrote that back in 2006 and it is well known to be his position. I only posted it to counter the lie that he is a "Jew hater" posted several posts earlier.

(and we've only got his word for it).

What? We've only got George Galloway's word for the fact that he called The Holocaust the greatest crime in human history? Because perhaps he was lying and he didn't say it? So it isn't in an article that was written by George Galloway in The Guardian that I linked to? Is it actually possible to make less sense than you did there?

 

[Virus]

If he's not a Jew hater then why does he support Jew haters?

 

[baron]

What? We've only got George Galloway's word for the fact that he called The Holocaust the greatest crime in human history?

Maybe you should read your own post because you appear confused. You said "Galloway denounces anti-semitism by Muslims" not "Galloway called The Holocaust the greatest crime in human history".

Because perhaps he was lying and he didn't say it? So it isn't in an article that was written by George Galloway in The Guardian that I linked to? Is it actually possible to make less sense than you did there?

Yes, and you've just done it. You linked to, and quoted from, an article which was a report by Galloway of an event in which he took part. He reports that during that event he made a statement to another person. We only have his word that this occurred because there is no independent testimony. He might have just said, "Yeah, there probably weren't 6 million killed." On the other hand he might have said exactly what he reported he said. We only have his word for it. You appear to believe this is not the case so please cite the person or people who corroborate his account, or accept that we only have his word for it.

 

[trustbutverify]

MEMRI seems very crude and stupid. If the opposing players are worse - heaven help them! Galloway has some talents, however, albeit that he uses them mainly in the interests of his own self-aggrandisement.

All I can say is it doesn't seem that way to me. I think MEMRI generally does a good job of supporting its position; that prominent anti-Zionists in the ME and throughout the world say some very interesting things when they think Westerners aren't listening, and that many of these "activists" and leaders are demonstrably racist. From what I've seen, MEMRI conducts their propaganda in a fairly intelligent and efficient way.

And again, I don't see Gallodouche being "better by a very wide margin!" than the founders of MEMRI.

 

[Craig B]

All I can say is it doesn't seem that way to me. I think MEMRI generally does a good job of supporting its position; that prominent anti-Zionists in the ME and throughout the world say some very interesting things when they think Westerners aren't listening, and that many of these "activists" and leaders are demonstrably racist. From what I've seen, MEMRI conducts their propaganda in a fairly intelligent and efficient way.

And again, I don't see Gallodouche being "better by a very wide margin!" than the founders of MEMRI.

There can be no doubt whatever that there is an abundance of racists, and anti-Semites in particular, among the Islamicist elements which oppose Israel. But the MEMRI people simply use this to push an extremist form of Zionism, which is equally unacceptable. The Palestinians are the ones who are the victims of aggression. Their cause is just, and they deserve a fair settlement of their grievances.

The MEMRI people are part of the problem, not the solution, and (though this may simply be a matter of taste) I find their propaganda very crude, with its context free sound bites and video clips.

May I stress that I am no supporter of Galloway. I am very familiar with him, as a native of Glasgow, and I deplore his views on most issues.

 

[Virus]

MEMRI is an invaluable service. It's like kryptonite to a leftie.

 

[Craig B]

MEMRI is an invaluable service. It's like kryptonite to a leftie.

Thanks for that thoughtful contribution Virus. Annoying lefties is the only activity you're interested in, I know. But we must take a broader view of such propaganda machines.

True, lefties don't like MEMRI. Breivik was impressed with it, though. See http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/25/278677/islamophobic-right-wing-blogger-breivi/ . In his "manifesto" it comes near the top of his citation list. Mentions in his manifesto are: Robert Spencer / Jihad Watch 162, Bat Ye'or 59, Daniel Pipes / Middle East Forum 18, MEMRI 16, Pamela Geller / Atlas Shrugs 12; and a few other entities received a smaller number of references by him.

Presumably MEMRI was horrified at having such a fan, but the crudity of their propaganda leaves them open to such use, or abuse. It is this I find dangerous.

 

[Virus]

Guilt by association fallacy.

 

[trustbutverify]

True, lefties don't like MEMRI. .

I'm a lefty, and I like MEMRI. Quite a bit in fact.

 

[Craig B]

Guilt by association fallacy.

I'm not accusing MEMRI of Breivik's guilt. I'm saying that the mindless crudity of MEMRI's propaganda opens it up to this misuse. Bat Ya'or is not guilty either, because she has not explicitly or in any other way called for mass murder of Scandinavian children. But the intellectual atmosphere engendered by this kind of crude propaganda can have a serious effect on the minds of psychopaths like Breivik.

 

[Craig B]

I'm a lefty, and I like MEMRI. Quite a bit in fact.

This interests me a lot. On the basis of what principles do you describe yourself as a "leftie"?

Does your "quite a bit" qualify your "I'm a lefty" or your "I like MEMRI"?

 

[Virus]

All MEMRI does is translate what comes out of the Arab media. The left hate that. They'd rather people not see what the Arab-language press is really saying.

 

[trustbutverify]

This interests me a lot. On the basis of what principles do you describe yourself as a "leftie"?

Why, can't I be a Zionist-Leftist? Does my appreciation of MEMRI disqualify me from the club? I'm a leftist/Zionist who believes in a 2-state solution, that a properly and humanely implemented market economy is progressive, and that creeps like Gallowschmuck are doing profound damage to the progressive stance. I doubt there are too many other political issues where you and I have unbridgeable differences.

Does your "quite a bit" qualify your "I'm a lefty" or your "I like MEMRI"?

It qualifies both, but in this sentence it applies to MEMRI.

 

[Craig B]

Why, can't I be a Zionist-Leftist? Does my appreciation of MEMRI disqualify me from the club? I'm a leftist/Zionist who believes in a 2-state solution, that a properly and humanely implemented market economy is progressive, and that creeps like Gallowschmuck are doing profound damage to the progressive stance. I doubt there are too many other political issues where you and I have unbridgeable differences.

There are indeed leftist Zionists, or at least there used to be, and I have been personally acquainted with socialist Zionists from the kibbutz movement. They disgraced themselves in my eyes by setting up their communes on occupied territory after 1967.

But MEMRI is the very opposite of a leftist movement, founded by an apparent supporter of Revisionist Zionism, and led by a mixture of Bushites and ultra Right members of the Israeli security services.

What you write simply makes no sense. If you are seeking a just two state solution, an aspiration with which I heartily concur, then "appreciation" of MEMRI is a strange means of obtaining it. I think Virus has a much better and more rational appreciation of the movement's purpose and potential.

 

[trustbutverify]

There are indeed leftist Zionists, or at least there used to be, and I have been personally acquainted with socialist Zionists from the kibbutz movement. They disgraced themselves in my eyes by setting up their communes on occupied territory after 1967.

Thank you for sharing this story about you and your Socialist-Zionist- Kibbutz- Imperialist friends. I'm sure they were all devastated as a result of your disapproval. The kibbutz era has been dead for quite a while; however let me assure you there are still plenty of leftist/Zionists currently inside and outside of Israel. I happen to be one of them.

But MEMRI is the very opposite of a leftist movement, founded by an apparent supporter of Revisionist Zionism, and led by a mixture of Bushites and ultra Right members of the Israeli security services.

I never claimed MEMRI was a leftist operation. (of course it's not a "movement"- I have no idea what you mean by that) I don't like the people who founded it, which is why I compared them to Galloway, whom I also don't like. MEMRI is a media service that attempts to expose the hypocritical and racist elements within the "anti-Zionist" movement, and to do so using their own words-from their own mouths. Personally, I think that's an important thing to do, and I believe they do an outstanding and professional job of it. I appreciate the work they do and no, that doesn't disqualify me from being a progressive.

What you write simply makes no sense. If you are seeking a just two state solution, an aspiration with which I heartily concur, then "appreciation" of MEMRI is a strange means of obtaining it. I think Virus has a much better and more rational appreciation of the movement's purpose and potential.

What I wrote made fine sense, as I have explained. Again, MEMRI is not a movement. They provide a service which I appreciate and find useful. Which brand of Zionism the founders and current operators subscribe to has nothing to do with me.

MEMRI exposes and embarrasses a certain, rather slimy subset of "the left" which has convinced itself that it can repeat every vile racist anti-Jewish slander as long as they replace the word "JEW" with the word "ZIONIST". These creeps deserve to be exposed and humiliated. I'm glad MEMRI calls them out on it.

 

[Craig B]

Thank you for sharing this story about you and your Socialist-Zionist- Kibbutz- Imperialist friends. I'm sure they were all devastated as a result of your disapproval.

Why the heavy sarcasm? Do you not consider it reasonable to be disappointed in socialists who set up communes on occupied, or even, as in one case, illegally-annexed land? Why do you dismiss this concern with such contempt?

The kibbutz era has been dead for quite a while

Indeed.

however let me assure you there are still plenty of leftist/Zionists currently inside and outside of Israel. I happen to be one of them.

And what is their and your view of the settlements in the occupied territories?

I never claimed MEMRI was a leftist operation. (of course it's not a "movement"- I have no idea what you mean by that)

i will not argue over the word, so I withdraw it.

I don't like the people who founded it, which is why I compared them to Galloway, whom I also don't like.

On the other hand, you like MEMRI "quite a bit", as we have established.

MEMRI is a media service that attempts to expose the hypocritical and racist elements within the "anti-Zionist" movement, and to do so using their own words-from their own mouths. Personally, I think that's an important thing to do, and I believe they do an outstanding and professional job of it. I appreciate the work they do and no, that doesn't disqualify me from being a progressive. ... What I wrote made fine sense, as I have explained. Again, MEMRI is not a movement. They provide a service which I appreciate and find useful. Which brand of Zionism the founders and current operators subscribe to has nothing to do with me.

That is very odd. These people are generally agreed to be enemies of the peace process, and they have repeatedly been accused of slanting their propaganda in the cause of subverting it.

You have told me what forms of anti-Zionism you find illegitimate. Can you now inform me what manner of opposition to Zionism you consider to be acceptable, and how that fits with your "quite a bit" admiration for MEMRI?

 

[Virus]

But MEMRI is the very opposite of a leftist movement, founded by an apparent supporter of Revisionist Zionism, and led by a mixture of Bushites and ultra Right members of the Israeli security services.

Poisoning the well. Guilt by association fallacy.

 

[Craig B]

Poisoning the well. Guilt by association fallacy.

You're saying being a right wing supporter of Bush incurs "guilt"? Very interesting. Or are you saying they're not as I described? Anyway you should be telling trustbutverify off for being a lefty, since annoying such persons appears to be your primary occupation.

 

[trustbutverify]

You're saying being a right wing supporter of Bush incurs "guilt"? Very interesting. Or are you saying they're not as I described? Anyway you should be telling trustbutverify off for being a lefty, since annoying such persons appears to be your primary occupation.

He chewed me out pretty good during this years "Elders of Zion" registration drive. But we're still friends.

I'll reply to your comments in post# 596 a little later.

 

[Craig B]

He chewed me out pretty good during this years "Elders of Zion" registration drive. But we're still friends.

I'll reply to your comments in post# 596 a little later.

Thanks. I look forward to that.