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Fusion, eh?

The reason is to stop people posting links to spam.

I'm aware. But it's a bad way to prevent spam because it prevents real people from contributing links, too.

I know it's probably just built into the forum software, but it can be turned on or off, and it's particularly bad to have it turned on.

For instance, a better idea would be to allow as many links as desired and just hide them by default. If other users want to see the links, they can click something extra to have them generated, which prevents linkspam and pagerank skewing. Then if the user has been "vetted" as a real person who is making genuine contributions to the forum, the links will be unhidden.

(Notice this is only my 3rd post. I have to make 12 more before I can contribute links. I don't really intend to be a regular of this forum; I just wanted to discuss this particular topic. I don't think I should be penalized for that.)
 
It is OK. You are allowed to say just about anything. It is amazing what people get away with around here. About the only way to get into trouble around here is to do it deliberately. If you want to discuss this issue further suggest you go to forum management.
 
The wonderfully unreliable "PESwiki" (a "free energy" online encyclopedia) has a new page on Dr. Bussard and co's work. It references his November Goggle video and his recently being honored with the "Outstanding Technology of the Year" award for 2006 by the International Academy of Science, for his "Inertial-Electrodynamic Fusion Device".

By the way, this "International Academy of Science" is a completely different organization from the "International Academy of Science" mentioned in an article in the real Wikipedia. The Wikipedia entry suggests that that the latter organization is probably not that notable. It does host a couple of conferences -- and it gives honorary memberships to Nobel laureates.

But IMHO, the former organization is even less notable. E.g., check out the founders. Check out the other "nominees".

(Also by the way and also IMO, it ain't technology until it has actually been built and shown to work.)
 
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The recent reports on Bussard's work raised several red flags with me (particularly the scaling factors he claimed), and that paper just makes things worse. Long on jargon and speculation, but short on experimental results. Pretty pictures of the device, and plenty of generalisations, but what few diagrams are presented are illegible.

Add to that his rant about the oil companies, and you end up with a lot of arrows pointing at "crazy old man" and none pointing at "will actually work". "Legit" is a different question. I believe that Bussard is honestly convinced this can be made to work; I just think he's wrong.
 
Bussard's discussion of the way that ions inside an electromagnetic containment show gyromagnetic jumps failed to show you why size is another key to scaling? I suggest that you might want to take another look at this. Do you not see why spacing of the magnetic elements is important, neither too far nor too close, to avoid arcing yet not allow escape paths for the electrons?

Furthermore, having watched the desertron get killed, I have absolutely no question that results are not part of the determination of funding for scientific projects. The LHC at CERN is about to put Europe at the center of nuclear research for the first several decades of this century- if the ITER being placed in Grenoble had not already done so. Had the desertron been built, we would ALREADY KNOW what we are not going to find out until this year at the LHC- and don't be surprised when "American ingenuity" ceases to be an item of conversation. We're not investing in it. It does not surprise me in any way that funding for a speculative power project should have been cut in 2005 and 2006- they are, after all, having to pay for this stupid Iraq business, and they are, after all, politicians. It surprises me that you are surprised.

I don't know for certain this is the big one- but if anyone's going to find a big one, it's gonna be Bussard. The man's credentials are impeccable- as previously mentioned, he and Hirsch, the co-inventor of the Farnsworth-Hirsch Fusor, the original IEC fusion device, were the two top honchos on the original AEC fusion project that resulted in the tokamak research. You can't really get credentials much better than that. It's kind of like having Einstein tell you that he has had a breakthrough and thinks he might have a unified field theory- maybe he's a crazy old man, but are you really not gonna sit down and have a serious listen?

Bussard may have pissed a lot of people off by telling them that he and Hirsch chose to push tokamaks because they looked like something that politicians were already familiar with; too bad. Having watched the mongolian cluster f88k that has been taking place in the US government (it's almost to the point that I put quotes around that word), do you question whether he was right, and that they wouldn't have got it and there would have been no funding at all?

Let's say it again: the people with the money aren't the people with the smarts. Technical education in the US is on the decline. The fundies are teaching cretinism- err, creationism- in the schools in flatland states that start with vowels. The "American Experiment" has fallen victim to a bunch of PR flaks who convince people they should do what the rich people tell them to. Look at what they've done with Global Warming. Tell me that this collection of idiots can be relied upon to fund the 90% of research that has no military or economic purpose, to get the 10% that does. I seriously doubt you are that credulous. I sure as hell ain't.

Give him the money. Stand or fall, the principles of the device are relatively straightforward- and if it doesn't work, we'll learn more for the next try. It has to work one way or another- I am still aghast that they are building ITER. It is, IMO, a colossal waste of money- other than the engineering talent it will engender. But you'll notice that engineering talent will all be French. The Americans will all be Cretinists- err, Creationists. How useful.
 
Interesting article, but I am skeptical. I highly doubt this is a scam, but I have a strong suspicion that he is exaggerating his success and underestimating difficulties that lie between where he is now and where he wants to be. He is claiming to be on the verge of a breakthrough that could define this era of science, so I doubt he would have trouble finding funding if there weren't still some signifficant questions about whether or not the project can succeed.

The key is to watch the scientific journals. See how this is recieved by his peers and if they can reproduce his results.

As a member of the energy industry, I feel I should point out a misnomer that seems to be flowing through this thread. The term "energy" is very broad -- almost too broad to be useful. When economists or politicians talk about energy, they are talking about everything from the gas that runs your car to the fuel used in power plants to the logs in your fireplace. The term is so expansive, many energy sources do not directly compete with others.

This is the case when talking about fusion and oil. In the US (and most industrialized nations), oil used for energy is used primarily for transportation and heat. Oil was once used for electricity, but utility companies stopped using it because the prices are too volatile. Fusion, if it is successful, would probably be employed exclusively for electricity production. We will not (in out lifetimes) see fusion reactors on cars or installed in homes for heat. As a result, oil companies are probably not concerned with fusion in the least because it doesn't compete with their product. At the same time, utilities that make electricity are not concerned with oil. The only competition that can exist is inderect competition through electric heat and electric cars, but the problems with those are not where the electricity comes from.

Finally, don't judge a scientist or an engineer for spelling or grammar mistakes in informal writings. I'm surprised and pleased he took time out of his day to answer an email by someone from an internet forum. I don't see why we should expect him to take more of his time to check for spelling errors.

---

On a second readthrough, I noticed his paragraph about oil.

"As for energy companies "stampeding" to support us - It is clear that a view like this is ignorant of the reality of energy companies. There is only one thing the oil cvompanies want, and that is to sell oil, and more oil. So long as the fields pump, the oil companies will squeeze. They have NO, absolutely NO interest in anything new, ins spite of all their foolish ads in magazines for wind mills and solar-PV roofs. It is all just show and tell. I know these guys, and there is no way they would support anything that might get in the way of oil. The only way to stop oil, from their view, is when it does run out. And then they''ll go for deeper drilling, new fields, Gulf geopressure gas, LNG, etc, etc, and keep raising the price, until finally foolish solar and windmills become competitive.
I had missed this the first time through, and I kinda wish I had missed it the second time also. His credibility has gome way down in my book. As I pointed out above, most of the energy companies that produce electricity don't touch oil at all. He says that those who say he would find supporters are ignorant about energy companies. In reality, it is he who is ignorant. As I pointed out above, most energy companies that make electricity don't touch oil at all. An electricity-producing utility would be very interested in this work if it has promise. He's making excuses about why they aren't interested. His need to interject politics and slander those who would support him makes me believe more and more that he is greatly (and perhaps knowingly) misrepresenting his work.
 
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I think there are a couple of problems that you didn't take into account in that analysis. I don't deny what you say; let me be clear. It is a fair assessment, those missing pieces aside.

The first missing piece, IMO, is the cold fusion debacle. Nobody who is holding the kind of money that is needed for this sort of project is capable of actually determining whether the technology will work. They just don't have the training. If they did, they wouldn't have the money. They'd be physicists like Bussard is. So they have to judge based on incomplete criteria; and you don't get a lot of money by taking crazy risks (or anyway, the vast majority of people who have a lot of money didn't). They look at cold fusion, they think about it, and they go, "Mmmmmmmm.... nawww."

The second thing I think you've overlooked is that the basic machine, the Farnsworth-Hirsch fusor, works, and has worked for many years. The problem isn't to make fusion. The problem is to increase the efficiency to get net power output. And Bussard's company figured out all the tricks needed. Here they are:
1. You have to get the same number of magnetic north poles as south poles in order to contain the electrons. If you lose electrons, either you lose containment or you lose energy (depending on whether you replace them or not).
2. The electrons can't touch the metal parts of the magnetic containment; if they do, you lose energy.
3. You have to prevent arcing.
4. You have to prevent eddy currents.
They didn't have to figure out how to make fusion; it already does that. That's the easy part. The hard part is keeping your energy budget low enough to make sure you get net power. And the points above are all key to that. They only figured out the first two at the end.

One last point: unless I use the term "energy company," when I say energy, I mean watt-seconds; if I meant power, I said power, and I meant watts; and if I meant force I said force and meant newtons.
 
One last point: unless I use the term "energy company," when I say energy, I mean watt-seconds; if I meant power, I said power, and I meant watts; and if I meant force I said force and meant newtons.

I must admit, Scheibster, it grinds my gears, too, when people conflate power, force and energy. Or when people talk about a force field as if it can exist independent of an actual force.

On the Bussard front, I raised an eyebrow at the spelling and grammar, but it does look like proper physics from my educated-layman's viewpoint. I do recognise several of the concepts as valid in the application. I think this may indeed be Dr. Bussard.

However, some things imply to me that mayhap he doth protest too much:

  • The didactic claim that tokamaks will NEVER work. If it's that cut and dried, why are so many scientists and engineers wasting their time, their reputation and public money on projects like JET and ITER? If it's so obviously a dead end, aren't these scientists willingly and selflessly committing professional suicide by shackling themselves to this albatross?
  • The oil angle. The idea that big science is deliberately driven by unseen govermnent controllers down routes that leave us beholden to the oil-producing nations. I believe that Bush, Blair, Merkel, Chirac et al would jump at the chance to flip the bird to the oil barons in the Middle East. After all, look at how France puts so much money into fission reactors - doesn't it make sense to assume they are doing what they can to reduce their dependency on foreign oil?
  • The little accident just at the most critical juncture. That honestly sounds just like Joe Newman - who'd love to persuade us he's another maligned and misunderstood prophet. This accident just seems a little too inconvenient.
  • Dr. Bussard has been working on this since 1983, but he has nothing to show for it after 23-24 years - at least nothing that convinces the authorities to loosen the purse-strings any more. This reminds me of Fleischmann and Pons (both respected scientists) and the cold fusion débacle. They, too, said tokamaks were a dead end, that the oil companies were trying to suppress their work. They did get funding, and lots of it, but there never seemed to be any worthwhile results.And they had a convenient power cut just before some important third-party verification.
I'd love to believe, but I'm not convinced yet.
 
Bussard's discussion of the way that ions inside an electromagnetic containment show gyromagnetic jumps failed to show you why size is another key to scaling? I suggest that you might want to take another look at this. Do you not see why spacing of the magnetic elements is important, neither too far nor too close, to avoid arcing yet not allow escape paths for the electrons?

Sure. But if he's claiming that it scales with 7th power of the diameter, then either he's wrong or he's building a bomb.

Realistically, he may have a process that scales with the 7th power of linear size, but the difficulty of sustaining that process may scale with the 6th power, or the 8th. There's little reason to think that a process that can't produce any energy on a small scale will prove to be practical on a larger scale.

Now, if he actually gave us his experimental results and his equations, things would be different. But he didn't. The paper that was linked to was rubbish. Whatever the reality of the device and the experiments conducted, the paper itself was rubbish.

Furthermore ... surprised.

You're mixing up fundamental and applied research, where the applied research has immediate and enormous financial return if it works out. No comparison.

I don't know for certain this is the big one- but if anyone's going to find a big one, it's gonna be Bussard. The man's credentials are impeccable

It's not his credentials that I care about, its his results, and he hasn't shown any.

Give him the money.

Shan't.

Stand or fall, the principles of the device are relatively straightforward- and if it doesn't work, we'll learn more for the next try. It has to work one way or another- I am still aghast that they are building ITER. It is, IMO, a colossal waste of money- other than the engineering talent it will engender. But you'll notice that engineering talent will all be French. The Americans will all be Cretinists- err, Creationists. How useful.

:confused:
 
This is a guy who's famous for inventing something that, so far, has only graced the pages of science-fiiction novels.

Bussard is a bit like Freeman Dyson: lots of people see him as a visionary genius, but nobody can name an actual, practical invention or scientific theory.
 
What bugs me is it sounds like a 419 scam. "We had it, lost funding that week, and now just need a small kick of $150 mil."

I was reading this thread thinking it was new, and just came across this. My first thought was, "Did someone spoof me?" Now I vaguely remember writing it but... still. It's a weird feeling.
 
Seems that there are a few little "thises and thats" y'all might want to make sure you're aware of.

...

It looks legit to me. Not to mention the fact he appeared in front of the staff of Google (they have these "tech talks" every so often- I think maybe they're competing with Microsoft, they do that too) and gave a pretty thorough talk about it, a few weeks back. This guy is the real deal, for sure- the real question is, will his idea work? Only time will tell.

Thanks! Very informative. Sounds reasonable to me.
 
Sure. But if he's claiming that it scales with 7th power of the diameter, then either he's wrong or he's building a bomb.
Ummm, you'd better read that part again. You missed that it's total power that scales as the 7th- net power output scales as the 5th. And I don't know that he maintained it scales forever. It doesn't have to, to work.

Let's think about how this thing works. It's pretty straightforward.

What you do, you make a strong potential well, and then you dump in fusible ions. When the fusible ions try to escape, they have to escape the potential well- and they can't.

How dense does the fusible medium have to be, and how strong does the potential well have to be to make it that dense, and how does that interact with size?

Hmmmnnnmm, well, you get at least a cube-law interaction with size.

So what else do you have to figure in?

Well, let's see; ideally, you can create your potential well with static electricity. So that means that you don't have to put energy in, except a certain amount for "start-up," if the machine is a perfect electron trap. Now, we all know that's not possible, but how close can we get? After all, we don't need to actually have the electrons themselves enter the reaction; we just need them there to provide the potential well. Well, electrons, they orbit- and keeping them trapped in a magnetic field sounds like the way to go for that. So what we do, is we make a magnetic trap for the electrons, and then we do everything we can to reduce the number of ways the electrons can escape from the magnetic field. For example, we make sure that the number of north poles and south poles is balanced, so that there's no way for the electrons to escape; every time they come out, there's the way back in, if they follow the field lines. And we make sure that none of the electron cloud touches the metal of the magnets; if it does, it will not only escape, but it may well burn big holes in things, starting with the magnets.

Now I don't know about you, friend, but I came out of an EE education with a lot of knowledge about electronics, but a less-than-stellar understanding of magnetics. It wasn't until I started putting the education to use in power supply design that I found out how important magnetics is. Most EEs, even today, don't know a great deal about this stuff, unless they intend on specializing in power supplies or audio speaker design. And I've talked to quite a few physicists, and most of them admit that aside from knowing how magnetism works, and where to look up the equations, they don't necessarily understand a great deal about how to apply it. And those are the two education paths I'd expect to give you the most knowledge in the field.

So a physicist trying to make a fusion machine had to spend ten or fifteen years finding out just how magnetic fields work, and how to use them to contain electrons without losing any. Big surprise. Not to me, anyway.

And here's the final piece: guess how magnetic and electric fields act in space? Ever hear of the inverse-square law?

Oh, and by the way, you DO know that fusion is probabilistic, right? That is, you can't just slam a couple atoms together and assume they're gonna fuse every time, right? You gotta be prepared to do it several times for each atom if you're gonna get anything out of it. So how do collisions at the center of the potential well, scale as the linear size of the magnets?

Gee, let's see:
1. We got square law, from the fields.
2. We maybe got two separate square laws, because it's not the magnets that contain the fusibles, it's the magnets that contain the electrons, and the field from the electrons that contains the fusibles.
3. We got cube law, because we're expanding the linear size and talking about volume.
4. We got fusion as a probability in each interaction; and what we're doing is increasing the density and the containment until that probability is high enough that we get power out of it.

So, now, that's enough to go on with; I'll tell you for free there are a couple other things in there that I haven't mentioned, and I know for sure you haven't considered (because if you had, you wouldn't be going down the path you are). Now you tell me, how precisely do you expect the power output to vary with the linear size of the magnets?

Good luck. From what I've seen so far of your physics knowledge, I expect I'll hear back from you... oh, 'long about the time hell freezes over.

Realistically, he may have a process that scales with the 7th power of linear size, but the difficulty of sustaining that process may scale with the 6th power, or the 8th. There's little reason to think that a process that can't produce any energy on a small scale will prove to be practical on a larger scale.
Oh, really? Then why build giant Tokamaks, like ITER, which you were questioning my views on below? Have you even twigged to the fact that you're talking about two square laws and a cube law, just in the simple physics of linear dimension and field variation over spatial extent? Do you perhaps think they haven't built little Tokamaks? There's a nice google for you. I bet I can find at least two small Tokamak experiments that haven't yielded any net power at all, in under thirty seconds. :D I should warn you that the last person who challenged such a statement of mine won't talk to me anymore because I proved conclusively s/he was an idiot.

Now, if he actually gave us his experimental results and his equations, things would be different. But he didn't. The paper that was linked to was rubbish. Whatever the reality of the device and the experiments conducted, the paper itself was rubbish.
As a scientific paper reporting his results? Yes, you're correct. OTOH, that's not what it was written to be, was it? So I'd say this is indicting someone you disagree with, on the basis that they didn't do something they weren't trying to do. Which is not a particularly good logical procedure for figuring out whether it's plausible or not.

And it appears that he's not nearly as interested in publishing his results at this point as he is in drumming up some support for this thing. Given a choice, I'd probably choose as he has; after all, if he hits it out of the park, who the hell cares what he published? The man will be universally famous. And he hasn't got a lot of time left. Do you really want to give it to the Chinese before we have a chance to play with it?

You're mixing up fundamental and applied research, where the applied research has immediate and enormous financial return if it works out. No comparison.
No, actually, I'm not- it was the US Congress that mixed them- and the funding for them- up. And I'm surprised you didn't spot that coming- looks like you got a blind spot.

It's not his credentials that I care about, its his results, and he hasn't shown any.
Well, neither has the Tokamak. So what the hell are we still doing THAT for?

You DID notice that one of the goals of ITER is to make net power output, right?
 
This is a guy who's famous for inventing something that, so far, has only graced the pages of science-fiiction novels.
That would be aside from being the deputy director of the fusion research effort that has given us every US Tokamak ever built. The director of which was the inventor of the Farnsworth-Hirsch fusor that Bussard's design is based on. But of course, thatdoesn'thaveanythingtodowithfusion, right?

Bussard is a bit like Freeman Dyson: lots of people see him as a visionary genius, but nobody can name an actual, practical invention or scientific theory.
I'm not going to even answer this. If you know little enough about Dyson to make this claim, you are incompetent to comment on either Dyson or Bussard.
 
Funny Cusps?

Wassup?

I'm new to this forum, and I have been following IEC fusion for a few years now after reading Farnsworth's biography. After looking at the recent post with Bussard's comments and his polywell patent, I thought it might be fun to try modeling magnetic field configurations with FemLab software. His last attempt was with 4 coils in a cube arrangement. I assumed that the coil fields were aligned to point inwards. Referring to my hosted image, since symmetry allows the computational domain to be a 1/8 cube the far corner is at the center and the 3 outer corners show the outer cusp fields produced parallel to the coil centerlines. In the corner facing the viewer the so called "funny cusp" possibly appears showing the return field paths for recirculating charged particles. It may be that any structural metal parts intersecting these field lines may have caused the losses Bussard claims to have recently minimized. Maybe a picture really is worth a thousand words?

Flux
 
I thought to advise forum members of a new site to discuss polywell fusion. Since the Forum Gods have not allowed me to post links directly, I offer it with some trepidation in the old-fashioned spelt out format, hoping that this does not bring down the wrath of Holy Old Klono Himself upon me*.

www dot strout dot net/info/science/polywell

Joe Strout (who is hosting the page) is a software engineer responsible for much of REALbasic and all of Meshwork. I offer this link of my own volition, and am not connected with Joe in any way.

*Klono was the deity of choice for Kimball Kinnison, the Grey Lensman of E.E. (Doc) Smith's classic SF series. This particular god had so many teeth, horns, hooves, and sundry other parts that "he was much more satisfying to swear by than any other deity" Kinnison knew.

Regards,
TB
 
Not bad. Interesting discussion developing on the theory forum about whether Rider's results apply.
 

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