Forgiven for what, eactly?

[Third Eye Open]

The idea is that everyone has done something that they know to be morally wrong, whether or not they recognize God.

AvalonXQ, I think you are one of the most interesting posters here. You are the most consistently cordial and reasonable young earther I have ever encountered anywhere. I find that to be very strange and surreal even sometimes.

I have done things that I considered morally wrong indeed, I doubt anyone would argue that they haven't, unless they have a very unusual morality. It is impossible to learn without making mistakes. But what I don't understand is why I should feel the need to be sorry to god, even if I thought he existed. I feel guilty for what i have done because it has wronged another person, and I apologize to them. I find it a sad cop out that someone could feel relieved of guilt by apologizing to god instead of the person they wronged.

 

[TimCallahan]

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

All right, let's start with an ordinary human being. During this person's childhood he or she will commit acts of dishonesty and meanness, and will hurt other children. In turn, this child will be on the receiving end of such acts. This child will also commit acts of kindness and generosity, and will also be on the receiving end of such acts. Children are born with some sense of empathy but really have to learn most other behaviors. They aren't, for example born with the knowledge of how to tie their shoes.

Assuming the child is punished for his or her wrongdoings, most of the time and has also been rewarded for his or her good acts, most of the time, the child will usually grow up to be a responsible person who will act decently most of the time. However, this seemingly isn't good enough for God because, somewhere along the way this person has committed at least one evil act.

Now, to accept your assertion that having committed any willfully evil act we are separated from this God you believe in, we must assume that this God demands of us behavior that simply isn't found in any being with free will. Yet, this God supposedly created us just as we are. So God made us what we are, meaning creatures incapable of meeting his standards, yet expects us either to meet those standards or ask forgiveness for not meeting them.

Have I missed anything?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes. Because I believe what the Bible says about what God wants.

Please call it by its proper name: The Bronze Age Goat-herders' Anthology of Campfire Tales for Boys

 

[iknownothing]

When I was watching Lord of the Rings, I had a thought that the concept of Original Sin is saying that human beings are like Orcs. Just born bad, no hope of being good.

I'm not saying I agree with it. Just that it seemed similar to me.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I would argue much of Orcs behavior is due to nurture, and not nature. Morgoth took elven stock and corrupted it in the dungeons of Angbad ( or was it Sauron in the name of Morgoth, I haven't read about this is many years apologies) But while orcs are simply genetically corrupted and ruined elves that are prone to large tumorous growths, I don't think we've ever given an orc a chance by raising it from infancy and teaching it not to taste manflesh.

 

[Beerina]

Acts of utter depravity?

Where do I sign up?

Ya, my life's pretty freakin' boring. Where do I get the good stuff?!?!? Is it one of those clubs like where Neo met Trinity? 'Cause that was a real place with real people, I hoid!

 

[slingblade]

Sadhatter, my church (Assembly of God, Pentecostal) taught that 10 years old is the Age of Accountability. Up until then, your sins were still sins, but you weren't held accountable for them by God until your 10th birthday. I do not know how they arrived at that age. When I first learned of it, I didn't question it, being about 8 years old.

Avalon, that same church most definitely taught (and still teaches, for all I know) that masturbation is self-abuse and most definitely a sin.

Here's a good one for you! Funny story!

In my first marriage, my husband had sex with other women more often than he did with me. I'd go months without. Sometimes I'd give in to my needs and take care of them myself. I was told during a church counseling session that it was MY FAULT my husband was cheating, because every time I'd take care of myself, God would cause him to lose interest in me.

Yeah. There are good reasons why I'm bat-crap crazy today.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Sadhatter, my church (Assembly of God, Pentecostal) taught that 10 years old is the Age of Accountability. Up until then, your sins were still sins, but you weren't held accountable for them by God until your 10th birthday. I do not know how they arrived at that age. When I first learned of it, I didn't question it, being about 8 years old.

Avalon, that same church most definitely taught (and still teaches, for all I know) that masturbation is self-abuse and most definitely a sin.

Here's a good one for you! Funny story!

In my first marriage, my husband had sex with other women more often than he did with me. I'd go months without. Sometimes I'd give in to my needs and take care of them myself. I was told during a church counseling session that it was MY FAULT my husband was cheating, because every time I'd take care of myself, God would cause him to lose interest in me.

Yeah. There are good reasons why I'm bat-crap crazy today.

It's not God's fault he decided to rely upon word of mouth for thousands of years, these people simply don't understand the truth of God's message because of the sinfullness of man and his ability to twist and distort the teachings of God out of his own sinful desires ability to warp his view. Why God showed confidence and allowed an inherently flawed creature's ability to pass on his teachings by word of mouth alone to be reliable enough to pass his message on to the people of the future is not for us to understand or ask and expect to understand.

God could have been less vague in what he wanted or did not want to happen, but the reason God does what he does is due to the dynamics of the universe and how they work and the invisible connection the physical universe shares with the symbolic act of sinning. This symbolic action actually creates an invisible force the alters the way things actually happen, reality itself.

I really can't stand the minds of people who box themselves into having to believe this sort of thing in order to make sense of what they were told is the truth.

 

[Robin]

At all points in history, the present culture's morality does not match God's. Without bothering with the details, I have no doubt you will find two situations where your belief in their moral value is opposite from the Bible's.

Yes, I gave an example already, plunging a sword into the chest of a crying frightened child is not generally regarded as the upright moral act that God considers it.

Whether or not a sincere atheist can disobey God depends on whether you include an intent element in the term. Atheists have a duty to act in accordance with God's will, and can act in opposition to it. That's all I mean by disobeying.

So you think that when the Bible refers to "disobedience" it means both intentional or unintentional disobedience?

 

[Robin]

On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following:

If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will.

So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?

C.S. Lewis said that it was impossible to understand Christianity unless you have a sense of sin - that you can really feel that you are a bad person.

That is the problem. Like everybody else I have done stuff that I consider to be wrong, but I can't think of myself as a bad person.

There has been a lot of good stuff there along the way too. I don't think that people in general are bad, although there are many who are.

C.S Lewis said that we should think of ourselves as "vermin" and that we should be utterly ashamed of being vermin.

But I can't think of myself as vermin and I certainly don't think of most people as vermin.

So I suppose that is why I cannot understand Christianity.

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . snippet . . . C.S Lewis said that we should think of ourselves as "vermin" and that we should be utterly ashamed of being vermin.
But I can't think of myself as vermin and I certainly don't think of most people as vermin.

So I suppose that is why I cannot understand Christianity.

Can you give me chapter and verse on the hilited material? I hadn't heard this before, not that it doesn't ring true, mind you.

 

[Accidental Martyr]

At all points in history, the present culture's morality does not match God's. Without bothering with the details, I have no doubt you will find two situations where your belief in their moral value is opposite from the Bible's. This doesn't particularly concern me. Should it?
Whether or not a sincere atheist can disobey God depends on whether you include an intent element in the term. Atheists have a duty to act in accordance with God's will, and can act in opposition to it.That's all I mean by disobeying.

Really? I have a duty to obey a mythical being? I don't think so.

 

[Aepervius]

Acts of utter depravity?

Where do I sign up?

Those aren't as great as you could think. Consider :
Those are all fun while doing it, but afterward, all you are left with are warm glowing memory and the desire for more.

Hu. Wait. No, indeed sign me up for more depravity

 

[Aepervius]

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

I don't believe in God, but beside that, I never ever commited EVIL acts. The worst I did was steal a packet of firecrackers at 3 year old (or so i was told I don't even remember), before even knowing that I was indeed stealing...

So i don't need to ask for forgiveness.

Thank you for playing.

 

[Aepervius]

The idea is that everyone has done something that they know to be morally wrong, whether or not they recognize God.

Which is a bunch of crock, as you can go through your live without having done anything morally wrong, and still be qualified as sinner by christian. They will just ASSUME that you have done evil. And if you say don't they weill tell you lied which is evil.

Remember that question lsit where you asnwered "no" and the web site answered you are wrong and you are a sinner ?

Same play here. The message is always "whether you accept it or not, you are a sinner, no matter what you did".

It is a bunch of crock, just like astrologer pretending uranus don't stink.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

But what if you've never done anything you consider morally wrong?
Because I haven't
I may have done a few things others consider morally wrong, but I personally did not.
And since, if I understand your worldview somewhat correctly, god is the one who makes us understand what is morally wrong and not, god does not consider me a sinner.

Don't get me wrong, I do not believe in god and I consider morals something family and society instills that are not absolute or even intrinsic in humanity.
But you seem to claim that god hardwires morality in humans so that even those that do not know of the bible or christianity still know what is right and wrong in gods eyes and would feel guilty once they cross this boundry.
What is your philosophical stance on people who do not feel moral guilt about anything in their lives?

 

[Robin]

Can you give me chapter and verse on the hilited material? I hadn't heard this before, not that it doesn't ring true, mind you.

"The Problem of Pain", chapter IV, "Human Wickedness", on about the third page of that chapter, about half way down the page, starting "A recovery of the old sense of sin is essential to Christianity. Christ takes it for granted that men are bad".

 

[Seismosaurus]

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

I don't believe that I've ever committed an evil act against god. I've committed evil acts against other people, and in those cases I've generally tried to seek the forgiveness of those people. I honestly don't see why I would need to apologise to god for anything I have done, good or bad.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Don't get me wrong, I do not believe in god and I consider morals something family and society instills that are not absolute or even intrinsic in humanity.
But you seem to claim that god hardwires morality in humans so that even those that do not know of the bible or christianity still know what is right and wrong in gods eyes and would feel guilty once they cross this boundry.

That is an accurate assessment on what I believe the Bible says.

What is your philosophical stance on people who do not feel moral guilt about anything in their lives?

The Bible says that it is possible to condition yourself until you no longer have a conscience about the moral wrongs you have done. The Bible does teach that you have committed evil acts (like everyone else). I would therefore conclude, not knowing more, that these people at one time knew they were doing wrong, even if they later convinced themselves that what they were doing wasn't wrong.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I don't believe that I've ever committed an evil act against god.

Every evil act is in disobedience to God, and therefore against God.