evildave
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stamenflicker said:As we continue to weigh only one of the body of questions I threw out, I think its important to note that again, none of the religions anyone has mentioned has its first followers being martyred.
What I meant by all the first followers is simply that Jesus "The Fabricator" and his 12 "Co-Conspirators," and Paul the "Great Liar," and Stephen the "Idiot," and scores of others are murdered during the alleged fabrication of this grand tale unlike ANY of the religions you have mentioned-- all for what reason? If marytdom was alone the reason to accept any faith, I'd conceed it's not much evidence. But given this within the body of other unlikely "fabrications" I'd say it makes a strong case.
Again, I'm asking to be shown where the alleged "fabricators" and the first followers "revisionists" were executed for the beliefs and somehow, unlike say Waco Texas, maintained a high degree of credibility.
Flick
Exceptions:
Judas killed himself.
John The Apostle died of old age as Bishop of Ephesus.
I hope you appreciate how much Christian gibberish I had to dig through to get you this.
Judas just popped off the top of my head.
As for martyring, I think you'll find this is a common occurence.
Islam is chock *full* of martyrs.
"All the envoys of God endured hardship and suffering when they were faced with denial and rejection, but they remained steadfast until the aid of God secured them their triumph. "
Sikh Holidays include
Martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev, the 5th Guru, recalls the first martyr of Sikhism. The Mughal emperor Jehangir executed Guru Arjun Dev in mid-May of 1606 CE. He built the Amritsar temple.
Martyrdom of Guru Teg Bahadur, the 9th Guru, was another martyr executed by the Mughal emperor. His death occurred in late November. He promoted religious freedom.
That's two of the nine incarnations of their founder, Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He died NINE times, and was martyred TWICE! If martyrdom makes you holy, this guy's WAY holier than that Jesus guy.
Many religions have early martyrs in early adopters. I would assign this as an occupational hazard for those seeking to establish new religions in ancient times, especially where there were already state recognized "official" religions.
Hinduism's beginning starts somewhere between 4000 and 2200 BCE. There just aren't records about their early adopters. I imagine many have died over the (up to) 6000 years they've been at this. They focus more on martyrs in modern times, but *SEEKING* martyrdom doesn't seem to be a core part of the belief system, like in Christianity and Islam.