For the No-Jesus Camp

stamenflicker said:
As we continue to weigh only one of the body of questions I threw out, I think its important to note that again, none of the religions anyone has mentioned has its first followers being martyred.

What I meant by all the first followers is simply that Jesus "The Fabricator" and his 12 "Co-Conspirators," and Paul the "Great Liar," and Stephen the "Idiot," and scores of others are murdered during the alleged fabrication of this grand tale unlike ANY of the religions you have mentioned-- all for what reason? If marytdom was alone the reason to accept any faith, I'd conceed it's not much evidence. But given this within the body of other unlikely "fabrications" I'd say it makes a strong case.

Again, I'm asking to be shown where the alleged "fabricators" and the first followers "revisionists" were executed for the beliefs and somehow, unlike say Waco Texas, maintained a high degree of credibility.

Flick

Exceptions:
Judas killed himself.
John The Apostle died of old age as Bishop of Ephesus.

I hope you appreciate how much Christian gibberish I had to dig through to get you this.

Judas just popped off the top of my head.

As for martyring, I think you'll find this is a common occurence.

Islam is chock *full* of martyrs.
"All the envoys of God endured hardship and suffering when they were faced with denial and rejection, but they remained steadfast until the aid of God secured them their triumph. "

Sikh Holidays include
Martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev, the 5th Guru, recalls the first martyr of Sikhism. The Mughal emperor Jehangir executed Guru Arjun Dev in mid-May of 1606 CE. He built the Amritsar temple.

Martyrdom of Guru Teg Bahadur, the 9th Guru, was another martyr executed by the Mughal emperor. His death occurred in late November. He promoted religious freedom.

That's two of the nine incarnations of their founder, Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He died NINE times, and was martyred TWICE! If martyrdom makes you holy, this guy's WAY holier than that Jesus guy.

Many religions have early martyrs in early adopters. I would assign this as an occupational hazard for those seeking to establish new religions in ancient times, especially where there were already state recognized "official" religions.

Hinduism's beginning starts somewhere between 4000 and 2200 BCE. There just aren't records about their early adopters. I imagine many have died over the (up to) 6000 years they've been at this. They focus more on martyrs in modern times, but *SEEKING* martyrdom doesn't seem to be a core part of the belief system, like in Christianity and Islam.
 
What "work" and whose "authority" based on what scholarship?

The work of the New Testament (Revelation and perhaps John in question, but I'd still date them at around 90AD).

The authority is mine admittedly, and I have every right to claim it because of my studies. O yeah, and scores of people smarter than me too who have written extensively on the textual criticism of the NT.

Flick
 
In all due respect . . .

You'll excuse me if I don't accept you as an authority - based upon what you've posted in this thread and otherwise.

(e.g. "J v. P"; "dozens of [NT] authors"; & etc.)
 
stamenflicker said:
As we continue to weigh only one of the body of questions I threw out, I think its important to note that again, none of the religions anyone has mentioned has its first followers being martyred.


Irrelevent. Christianity's first followers were NOT murdered.
 
stamenflicker said:
The authority is mine admittedly, and I have every right to claim it because of my studies.
Claim what you will, but your understanding of textual criticism is an obvious joke. All that remains to be explained is why you insist on exposing such incompetence. :)
 
SF:
You completelly ignored my point...hundreds, maybe thousands of Mayan, Inca, Aztec and other Mezo-Americans were murdered because of their religion and their unwillingness to be enslaved by the Spanish.

Why doesn't their martyrdom -- for their beliefs, their way of life, etc. measure up in your estimation? Is dying because you reject a religion, economic system and colonialism being forced on you somehow different than martyrdom because you are preaching a "new" religion? Are not the victems just as dead, and for thier beliefs? Or, is it because they are "savages" and you reject the logic, quality, spirituality of thier "religion" that leads you to ignore them? I would only point out that even the Pope has been making excuses and apologies for the way that American-indian populations were treated.
 
Been mostly ignoring this forum, but here goes:
No one can do that. No one can give you evidence that Julius Ceasar existed either. We do have documents that suggest they both existed. You have determined that all the documents regarding Jesus, collected together in the New Testament suggest nothing. I disagree.

Flick

I can give you plenty of evidence Julias Ceasar existed. His existence is independantly (key word) verified by documents outside of his home land, written by people who have nothing to gain by writing about him. Also, his visage appears on coins of the time. Also, he was spoken about afterwards up to the present day.

Jesus, however, doesn't appear on a single document. The bible is a story book, unverified and meaningless outside of itself. Your argument was destroyed years and years before either of us were born. Don't make ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ comparisons.

A strawman? I was using the example you yourself gave about cars and showed why this was irrelevant to your claim. Who's grasping at straws now?

Potato, you did make a strawman, and from the third sentence you seem to not understand that that is exactly.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It says I don't have to bother considering the message because no person named Jesus existed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Bible agrees.

1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

That pretty much nails it Yahzi.

Well that, and "jesus christ" didn't have a message of any import that hadn't already existed for thousands of years previous.

Like I've always maintained, whether Jesus really existed or not, I could care less. I've made my choice based on the message. BUT to use a lazy approach to existing texts and ignore a host of very intelligent people who have studied this sort of thing is offensive.

Being a christian is about nothing but being a follower of Jesus Christ.

You are an idiot, stamenflicker. You don't even understand what your own god is telling you in the book he wrote. Come on.

See, this is why I do not respect hippydippy christianty. I can look to people like Falwell and understand that although he is in all senses of the word an evil human being with a sinister agenda, he at least has the gall to follow his holy book in it's entirety, without resorting to rationalizing away the things he doesn't like.

most of the books that i have read concerning the history of the bible claim that the individual books were not even commited to paper until 300 c.e.

The bible as we currently know it was assembled hundreds of years after the "death of jesus"

It's literally impossible to know how accurate the new testament we have now is :) Far, far too much time passed before it was assembled.

Also, the average lifespan of somebody living in those times was around 40 to 50 years.

I didn't change the subject at all. If you know of a religion in which all it's first followers were murdered for stating their beliefs, then by all means step up to the plate and take a swing.

Buddhists in Tibet? "Pagans" in Ireland? Indians in the Americas? How about Ahkenatens (Amenhotep) religion being erased after he died? Religious persecution is nothing new. In fact, Christians are some of the greatest perpetrators.

I just realised that you cited the presence of contradictions in the Bible as STRENGTHENING your case that it is the work of a omniscient being?!

For goodness sake, man, surely this is a transparently idiotic claim?

As time has passed, both Stamenflicker and PotatoStew have been exposed as having the same retarded agendas every other religionist on this board does. Neither has presented reasonable cases for their religiosity, despite bringing it up at every conceivable junction.
 
but rather why did this particular faith grow so rapidly.

Actually, you can answer that:

Constantine.

Without him, christianity would have died as a nameless cult.
 
Fade,

Also, the average lifespan of somebody living in those times was around 40 to 50 years.
A total side track, but you need to be careful here - "average" life span is increasing, but the "maximum" isn't. If you made it past 5 in Judea, you probably made it to 60-70. The average was 40 simply because so many children died.

Actually, you can answer that:

Constantine.

Without him, christianity would have died as a nameless cult.
Yes, and his reasons for embracing Christianity may have been as much political as spiritual. Yet, I still wonder why christianity grew strong enough to attract the attentions of the Roman emperor? He embraced it because it was already 'strong'. Sure, his involvement sealed the deal, but it's interesting (well, to me) to consider how it rose to that level. Perhaps, as I said, it's nothing more that "well, he had to have some sort of religion".
 
Flick,

Following on from Headscratcher's point :

You completelly ignored my point...hundreds, maybe thousands of Mayan, Inca, Aztec and other Mezo-Americans were murdered because of their religion and their unwillingness to be enslaved by the Spanish.

Why doesn't their martyrdom -- for their beliefs, their way of life, etc. measure up in your estimation?
The martyrs you refer to are not the 'fabricators'. Assuming it's all a big lie, there would have been only a very small number (less than 10?) who knew the truth. Within a year, the number of 'followers' would far exceed the number of 'fabricators' (if they did their selling well enough. Just look at the rise of John Edward - tap into a public that is 'primed' to receive your message, and you can have hundreds of thousands of followers in just a few years.

In fact, there may have been only one 'fabricator' - charismatic leaders can have a powerful influence on many people.

Start a cult. Pick a comet, tell your followers that the aliens are coming in the tail of the comet. In no time at all you'll have 37 people willing to die for your story.

Having said all of that, I still favor the "Jesus was real" theory (but I don't consider it proven at all!). Like you, it seems to me much easier to fabricate and sell the bible if you have a base to start from.
 
Where would Xianity be without Constantine?

That's a great mind game.

First, I suspect that Xianity would still be viewed as a subset of Judaism. The antisemitism did not start with Constantine, but by making the "cross" a symbol of the death of Jesus by the Jews he certainly changed the dynamic and made antisemitism job 1.

(The Gospel of Peter said that the Pharisees (I think rather than the Sadducees) did not want it to get out that Jesus arose - since the people (read: Jews) would get mad at them. So, this is mildly antisemitic - but mostly anti-clergy. The "jews" were not the enemy, as they later became).

Second, Xianity would probably have outpaced rabbinic Judaism, since Xianity is evangelical, and converts were wanted. It would probably be much more similar to Judaism with traditions and rituals, since we don't have the Council of Nicea and other counsels to establish orthodoxy and move it away from Judaism.

Third, I find it hard to believe that it would have reached the 1.9 billion members it has now, but the number of Jews would be much greater without the holocaust and pogroms (from Trier to the Inquisition).

My guess?

250 million Jew-xians
100 million regular Jews
200 million nordic worshipers
400 million pagan mesoamericans
 
RESONABLE DOUBT
Claim what you will, but your understanding of textual criticism is an obvious joke. All that remains to be explained is why you insist on exposing such incompetence.

Care to back your statement up? I'm about tired of the insults.

HEADSCRATCHER
Why doesn't their martyrdom -- for their beliefs, their way of life, etc. measure up in your estimation? Is dying because you reject a religion, economic system and colonialism being forced on you somehow different than martyrdom because you are preaching a "new" religion?

It seems to me if you are accusing Christianity of being fabricated, then you HAVE to account as to why a large group of people were willing to die for their lie AS the lie was being told. It's not that other martyrs don't count. Once a belief takes root, someone will do anything for it, die for it, kill for it, etc. Let me again phrase the question in the context of this post:

What benefit is fabricating a religion that kills you?

This is what the fabrication camp has to answer, and can't. Anyone will die for a belief, but who dies for a lie?


FADE:
I can give you plenty of evidence Julias Ceasar existed. His existence is independantly (key word) verified by documents outside of his home land, written by people who have nothing to gain by writing about him. Also, his visage appears on coins of the time. Also, he was spoken about afterwards up to the present day.

Your sources don't count. Ceasar didn't exist.

The bible is a story book, unverified and meaningless outside of itself. Your argument was destroyed years and years before either of us were born. Don't make ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ comparisons.

The bible is a book with many different authors, and yes stories. But half the NT are letters. Actual letters written around 50AD. I'd say that counts as a touch of history. How many of Ceasar's letters do we have in tact?

You are an idiot, stamenflicker. You don't even understand what your own god is telling you in the book he wrote. Come on.

Nice.

See, this is why I do not respect hippydippy christianty. I can look to people like Falwell and understand that although he is in all senses of the word an evil human being with a sinister agenda, he at least has the gall to follow his holy book in it's entirety, without resorting to rationalizing away the things he doesn't like.

That's great, thanks for sharing. And now, back to the thread.

Buddhists in Tibet? "Pagans" in Ireland? Indians in the Americas? How about Ahkenatens (Amenhotep) religion being erased after he died? Religious persecution is nothing new. In fact, Christians are some of the greatest perpetrators.

You've totally missed my point. Read the above response to headscratcher. It beats me as to why I have to type something out about 8 times before someone finally reads it close enough to understand. Either we are a slow lot here, or lazy. My money is on the latter. I see Loki actually gave my point a prod, which is more than I say for you, HS, or RD. Perhaps you would like to try again, I mean try again again.

As time has passed, both Stamenflicker and PotatoStew have been exposed as having the same retarded agendas every other religionist on this board does. Neither has presented reasonable cases for their religiosity, despite bringing it up at every conceivable junction.

Sorry you feel that way. However after about your third insult in a single post-- both lips right here ( ! )
 
Loki,

Thanks for actually reading what I posted instead and responding instead of jumping off track.

The martyrs you refer to are not the 'fabricators'. Assuming it's all a big lie, there would have been only a very small number (less than 10?) who knew the truth.

Perhaps... say Jesus and his merry men. Even if only a handful of the disciples new the truth of fabrication. Here are the counter points:

First, we have the problem of Paul. Paul never saw Jesus, never met him in person. Paul wrote about 1/2 of the NT a few years after the crucifixion and is responsible for a large portion of Christain theological construction. Paul was beaten and jailed, and eventually according to tradition, beheaded. Beheading aside, we know he spent a lot of time in jail. Paul is not only believing the previous fabrications, he is extending the fabrications with a new theology he says he has received divinely from the orignial fabricator. What's the odds of two fabricators within 50 years of each other willing to die for the same fabricated theme? Also Paul admits that his own hands are bloody in that he participated in the killing of Christians before conversion-- evidence that indeed there was killing taking place soon after the crucifixion.

Second regarding Paul, we see him fighting with one of the first fabricators in Antioch (Peter) about whether or not the orgininal fabricator (Jesus) meant for his fabrications to extend to non-Jews. So if all this has been fabrication, we have several players extending approximately 25-50 years after Jesus' death.

Third, we have to assume the fabricator (Jesus) never wrote anything down, or that the true fabricators lived in 100AD and thought to themselves they needed to create a religion. That's very problematic in two ways. If if the former is true, then he had a lot of trust in word of mouth. If you are going to create a religion, you'd think you'd need to write something down. Unless of course the Jesus himself had no idea what was to later be fabricated. If the latter statement is true, why create a religion about a guy that lived several years ago and was crucified? The fabricators could go to any point in history and write about any figure, or not create a human figure at all.

Start a cult. Pick a comet, tell your followers that the aliens are coming in the tail of the comet. In no time at all you'll have 37 people willing to die for your story.

Of course you could. But what we are dealing with in the NT is allegedly multiple fabrications, multiple fabricators, all extending for dozens of years past the original fabricator. That's alot different that one charismatic guy swaying one group. And as you pointed out, these "lies" eventually reach a world leader and an educated populace.

Flick
 
You asked for comments on your Biblical acumen, so . . .

Stamen, let me respond:
1. Quote: "Paul wrote about 1/2 of the NT a few years after the crucifixion."

Paul wrote many of the letters, several others are accepted as pious forgeries, some (Hebrews) are unknown.

Paul wrote 25 years after the crucifixion.

2. Quote: " Second regarding Paul, we see him fighting with one of the first fabricators in Antioch . . ." Just because two books (Acts and Galatians) record two groups disputing tenets of the religion is not further support for historicity, since Paul acknowledges never knowing Jesus. Historicity is more dependent on the gospels than the epistles.

Finally, as to martyrs, you state:

____________________________________

"What benefit is fabricating a religion that kills you?

This is what the fabrication camp has to answer, and can't. Anyone will die for a belief, but who dies for a lie?"
____________________________________

Ok - in 1098 in Mainz Germany the crusaders attacked the Jewish population charging "convert (and give us your money) or die." (See, the crusaders were too far from Jerusalem to kill Sarasens, so they decided to kill Jews instead).

The hundreds of Jews committed suicide and killed their children because they believed that Jesus was not the Messiah (Carroll, Constantine's Sword, 2001).

Based upon your logic, who was believing the lie?
 
stamenflicker wrote on 9/20:
The last book of the current Christian canon (probably John) was written around within 75 years of the crucifixion.
  • [*]You do not specify which Canon, you are not sure which is "the last book", but you know that it "was written around within 75 years of the crucifixion".[*]You say nothing about the extent to which this 'probable' book of your unspecified Canon is accurately represented by current textual variants.
stamenflicker wrote on 9/21:
While it is true the bible was translated into other languages (and continues to be) since it was written, as a person who has read the work in Greek (which was perhaps it's original form, due to the Koine, or commoner dialect, splashed with Attic morphology) and can say with authority the work was finished within a century or so of "Jesus" life. So this 1,000 year talk is meaningless.
  • [*]Are you referring to the Alexandrian, Byzantine, or Western textual tradition, or do you know?[*]When you speak of an "original form" are you referring to a single textual form, or do you know?[*]When you say Greek "was perhaps it's original form, due to the Koine", are you asserting that some 4th century Koine translation of some unspecified portion of some undefined Canon is probative of anything?[*]Is "within a century or so" the same as "around within 75 years?
stamenflicker wrote on 9/21:
Furthermore, the Koine uses (as opposed to classical as in Plato's works) indicates not only the dating, but the voice, which was undoubtably that of less educated writers.
  • [*]On what basis do you assert that Paul, Luke, and the Deuteropauline works were written by "undoubtedly ... less educated writers"?
stamenflicker wrote on 9/25:
I'm about tired of the insults.
  • Be less deserving.
 
Early Christians held a profound belief that some were willing to die for. The powers of the state -- Rome and its agent -- essentially said renounce your beliefs accept the state religion and conform or die. Some chose martyrdom. Some chose to renounce their faith (the cause of many issues in the church after it was established as the state religion under Constintine).

Many Mezo-Americans chose to die rather than renounce their religion or culture to the newly established Spanish powers.

SF, I am not arguing that Christianity is fabricated -- there may have been a Jesus, and I am inclined to accept that there was such a person. What I am arguing is that the willingness to die for a belief is not an indication of the inherent truth of a religion or whether it merits belief. You suggested that the willingness of Christians to die for their belief not only underscored the profundity of their faith, but was somehow also an indication of the truth of that faith. You challenged, it seems to me, that this was unique and that believers of other faiths were not willing to make the same sacrifice for their beliefs.

I suggested that the Mezo-Americans martyred for their beliefs belie that assertion. In addition, Jews and Moslems martyred during the Spanish Inquisition would, it seem to me, also belie that assertion.

The distinction you seemingly are attempting to draw lies, I think, at the early stage of these alleged martyrdoms. I.e. (please correct me if this is wrong), the Christian martyrs were dying very early on at a time when, according to skeptics of Jesus' existence, the religion was being fabricated. Why, you ask, would someone die for a religion being fabricated (as opposed to a legitimate or real belief in the "history" of Jesus and his message). You conclude, by determining that the belief was real and, because of their position in history and chronology, their knowledge of the "events" of Jesus' life convinced them that this was a cause worth dying for.

Is this essentially correct? Is this the distinction you would draw -- between those martyred for an established religion (e.g. Aztecs, Moslems, etc.) vs. your view of the position of early Christian martyrs?

I am not sure that I buy that the distinction has much merit. My recollection and understanding is that most of the martyrs for christianity occured among people who neither would have or could have known a historical Jesus (yes, I am aware of the claim for martyrdom among the apostles, Jesus' Brother James, and Paul). But in any case, their willingness to die for their beliefs is not unique, even in historic poximity. For example, how is their willingness to die different than that of the Heaven's Gate cult?

Is it because the HG Cult death was not a "martydom" to the state, but suicide?

Further, we have the Christian source for why many "martyrs" met their fate. I suspect the Romans -- who were actually pretty liberal about religion and faith until the empire became shakey in the mid 200s -- would have thought very differently on the topic. These people were executed for "crimes" that pagans would have been executed for -- incitment to rebellion, disturbing the peace, insulting the Emperor, etc. My point is not to suggest that Roman Justice was fair or implemtneted justly or well. Rather, a specific policy of targeting Christians as Christians -- regardless of their location -- developed at a point well after the religion had developed. For example, Nero's persecution it seems to me was a localized Roman affair resulting from a political need for a scape-goat, rather than a empire-wide criminalization of christianity.

Just some thoughts, in an attempt to better understand the distinctions you seek to draw.
 
headscratcher4 said:
SF, I am not arguing that Christianity is fabricated -- there may have been a Jesus, ...
Whether or not there was an historical Jesus, there can be little doubt that Christianity was fabricated and refabricated in the crucible of Roman politics and bloody doctrinal struggles.
 
ReasonableDoubt said:
Whether or not there was an historical Jesus, there can be little doubt that Christianity was fabricated and refabricated in the crucible of Roman politics and bloody doctrinal struggles.

I think I agree with you...what I was trying to say is that there may, at the core, have been a historical person "Jesus"... I am inclined to accept that. I do, however, agree that doctrine, writings, history, believers, misinterpretation of events, willful deciets, simple mistakes, etc. all combined to "fabricate" what we call Christianity.

For example, SF states that there are the Pauline letters as proof of not only the historical Jesus but also of the emergence of a coherent doctrine very early after the death of Jesus (by that, he means within 30 years of Jesus' death). However, my reading leads me to numerous NT scholars who believe that many of the letters were doctored, added to, etc. -- to fit later conditions and concerns of the emerging church -- far after their original writing. In other words, the Pauline letters are not pure, unadulterated text -- they are fabrications, in the sense that they have been altered, edited, added to, etc. for a variety of doctrinal, political and conditional reasons.

I think the thing that is missing in SF's assertions is his seemingly core belief that early Christians couldn't believe what they believed unless it were true...and yet early christians lived in a world were people believed in just about everything -- multipul gods, ghosts, witchcraft, emperors that become god, seers, prophets, etc. The fact that a cult, 20 years after the alleged death of the founder (if, in fact Jesus knew he was a founder) believed that the founder had been raised from the dead, fulfilled prophesy, cured disease, raised people from the dead, and herolded a new relationship with "God" doesn't seem that odd in a world where the Emperors were defied because eagles were seen to circle over their funeral fires, or where Jewish fanatics would challenge the greatest military power in the world to face extinction of a people because of a belief in OT prophesy.
 
RD

You do not specify which Canon, you are not sure which is "the last book", but you know that it "was written around within 75 years of the crucifixion".

Which canon? How about the "current" one, which is what I enclosed in my post? Current, you know, "The one we use today." This was set at the Council of Nicea. And no I'm not sure which was the last book but textual criticism says it was most likely John or Revelation. Either way, they were written fairly close to the event. The remainder of the NT was penned prior to 70AD by all indicators.

You say nothing about the extent to which this 'probable' book of your unspecified Canon is accurately represented by current textual variants.

Because we are discussing dating. I picked John due to the massive textual variants from the Synoptic gospels and the obvious Hellenistic influences in chapter one.

Are you referring to the Alexandrian, Byzantine, or Western textual tradition, or do you know?

I'm referring to the Koine textual tradition as it arose from Attic-Ionic Greek. I have no idea what you are referring to.

When you speak of an "original form" are you referring to a single textual form, or do you know?

The original form was likely oral. But yes "original" in its written form in Koine, a single textual form. Note: there are a few exceptions, yet most of these exceptions point to an earlier dating, not later. Example of conspicous later insertions include references to OT prophecy.


When you say Greek "was perhaps it's original form, due to the Koine", are you asserting that some 4th century Koine translation of some unspecified portion of some undefined Canon is probative of anything?

Could you be more specific? :) It is clearly not even 3rd century Koine. Do your homework. Here if you are lazy:

I have 15 or so books on this subject right across the room, but if you’d like to read for yourself:

"The New Testament, except for Luke, was written in about as demotic a language as one could get, and broke rule after rule of the prescriptionist Atticizers, both in vocabulary and grammar (Browning esp. 44-50), but because they were canonized texts, they had to stand "as is." Browning mentions in a footnote (47-48) the following:

"When bishop Triphyllios of Ledra, a learned man and author of a commentary on the Song of Solomon, during a service substituted skimpouV for krabbatoV in the Gospel passage ‘Take up they bed and walk’, his Cypriot colleague St. Spyridon of Trimithus, who had taken part in the Council of Nicæa, rebuked him with the words, ‘Are you so much better than Him who said krabbatoV that you are ashamed to use His words? (Sozomenos, Hist. Eccles. 1.11)."

From http://humanities.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/greek.html

Clearly, we can see that even before the Council of Nicea, the texts were somewhat canonized by the followers, imperfections and all. The FACT is that the EARLY authors did not give into to scholarly temptations to submerge their work in Attic morphology and dialect indicates a few things: 1) it was written by less educated people, or 2) it was written in a hurry. Probably both. It is most likely not the work of fabricators who would have used a different tone and voice in their writing, and would have taken time to get it right. On top of all that, we have splashes of Aramaic in the text also lending aid to the dating process.

Get over yourself.

Is "within a century or so" the same as "around within 75 years?

Do I need to do your math for you? Let's see. Century = 100 years. I typed around 75 years. What do you think?

On what basis do you assert that Paul, Luke, and the Deuteropauline works were written by "undoubtedly ... less educated writers"?

See the above quote. Luke may have been an exception, as was the author of John and Revelation. The author of Hebrews is an educated Jewish leader, and seemed to have his Greek down pat too. Paul a Roman citizen uses a commoner dialect in his letters, naturally. We can't make a determination as to his intelligence, but supposedly he was an educated in Jewish law. The author of Mark is clearly not educated.

Be less deserving.

Get over yourself.
 
Whether or not there was an historical Jesus, there can be little doubt that Christianity was fabricated and refabricated in the crucible of Roman politics and bloody doctrinal struggles.

Do you just have a habit of making ridiculous statements without evidence? The texts of the NT clearly demonstrates that your assertion is false.

Flick
 

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