Flu Shots

[kellyb]

I.e. hypochondriacs would more likely bear schitzophrenic children?

I don't think that's exactly what they meant.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Symptom of Groupthink:



I'm not a homeopath. I think it's quackery, just like vaccination. I'd readily say that if done properly, homeopathy at least isn't dangerous. Unlike vaccination. But that's the limit of my defense of homeopathy.

Facts? This is the internet. All that can be provided is argument. Arguments can be rejected, or refuted. And have been provided already.

Still waiting for you defence of the study.

What is your evidence that homeopathy is less dangerous than vaccination?

Homeopathy kills when people delay real treatments. Homeopathy kills when it is used instead of vaccination.

People don't die when they are vaccinated. People die if they use homeopathy instead of getting a tetanus shot.

Doing nothing is far worse than prevention with vaccines.

I like your reasoning if you use it on yourself though. Go ahead, use homeopathy instead of getting a tetanus shot.

 

[Dabljuh]

Still waiting for you defence of the study.

Of what study? I didn't post one, did I? And why would I have to defend it? Forgot your pills today?

What is your evidence that homeopathy is less dangerous than vaccination?

Homoepathy = Water, maybe sugar. Vaccinations = Oh crud. Lab remnants, chemicals, alcohol, mercury, proteins. Evidence? I don't need evidence for something that is so trivially obvious to me. If you need evidence to believe that. Well. I'd say you misunderstand the concept of skepticism.

Homeopathy kills when people delay real treatments. Homeopathy kills when it is used instead of vaccination.

Hypocratic oath is "Do no harm", not "Do something! Anything! Now!!" Getting _any_ treatment is dangerous and risky in any case. There could be misdiagnosis, misapplication, labels got switched. It's risky. The argument that "any" medication is better than "no" medication is the biggest fraud big pharma ever made people believe. Congratulations: You're a dupe. Duped by the pharma industry.

People don't die when they are vaccinated. People die if they use homeopathy instead of getting a tetanus shot.

Right... homeopathy causes tetanus... see above.

Doing nothing is far worse than prevention with vaccines.

Duped, deluxe, with stars.

I like your reasoning if you use it on yourself though. Go ahead, use homeopathy instead of getting a tetanus shot.

How about I just do nothing. Since tetanus' bacteria are everywhere, I guess I'm doomed.

 

[Ove]

Ove, enlighten me... All this time I was under the impression that the USA was one country that did not allow thalidomide to be approved for sale (though it is now approved for certain things, like leprosy). Did someone actually disregard Dr. Frances Kelsey's concerns?

Sorry, didn't know that. I was under the impression that it was world wide but fortunately for you some american doctors was wiser.

 

[Ove]

Ove,

I just wanted to give you a quick heads-up, so you have a chance to edit your post before Skeptigirl sees it. You won't help your case if you say a bunch of stuff that is wrong. For example, thalidomide was never approved in the US, let alone for pregnancy pains, expert panels recommend against the use of circumcision for the purpose of preventing penile cancer, etc.

Hope this helps.

Linda

Yes i was wrong with Thalidomide (fortunately for you) on circumsision you are wrong. But i merely used those examples to show that "experts" also have been very vrong. I could also have mentioned the doctors that believed that if a child was born as a hermaphrodite you could just chop off the penis and raise the child as a girl. The doctor that practiced this procedure still hasn't admitted he was wrong despite one of the cases led to suicide and several led to severe psycic problems.

I was also trying to point out that the "experts" she was referring to obviously had different opinions to the experts i am referring to. I know "my" experts are 100% free of commercial interests the same cannot be said about american "experts" they have a long history of saying what the pharmaceutical industry like to hear.

I am not talking bribe, off course not, but if your research is funded by the pharmaceutical industry you just dont say that their products are not needed do you?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

The doctor that practiced this procedure still hasn't admitted he was wrong despite one of the cases led to suicide and several led to severe psycic problems.

<snip>

Doctors to admit they are human and make mistakes like the rest of us?

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/07/31/disclosure-doctors.html

Where does this leave physicians who may fear malpractice or loss of face among peers?

Levinson says she's studied the issue and concedes that malpractice is a barrier. "I think most physicians — and this was in our study — that have actually disclosed to a patient, said it actually enhanced the relationship."

And patients, too, often have positive reactions, she says. "When doctors do disclose they often find patients the opposite of angry — and forgiving." Research also shows that patients do want to know the bad news, rather than taking an "ignorance is bliss" approach.

 

[Dabljuh]

I find this very research objectionable. Here we have doctors who considered the possibility that lying to your patient may actually be good for them, and did a study to test that hypothesis.

Of course most doctors know better than even such a mere study. I mean, what's next, a study questioning the efficacy and safety of vaccines?

 

[fls]

Yes i was wrong with Thalidomide (fortunately for you) on circumsision you are wrong. But i merely used those examples to show that "experts" also have been very vrong. I could also have mentioned the doctors that believed that if a child was born as a hermaphrodite you could just chop off the penis and raise the child as a girl. The doctor that practiced this procedure still hasn't admitted he was wrong despite one of the cases led to suicide and several led to severe psycic problems.

You are talking about something different. Sure there is variation in opinion among physicians (it's been said that if you have 10 physicians in a room you'll hear 15 different opinions). So you will always be able to find ideas, some that were even widely promoted, that were wrong. But what we are talking about here is when there is consensus among people with knowledge and experience. And I should make it clear that there is a difference between recognizing that circumcision reduces penile cancer (which expert panels agree on) and recommending that the procedure actually be performed for that reason.

I was also trying to point out that the "experts" she was referring to obviously had different opinions to the experts i am referring to. I know "my" experts are 100% free of commercial interests the same cannot be said about american "experts" they have a long history of saying what the pharmaceutical industry like to hear.

Some experts have professional associations with pharmaceutical companies. Many do not. The same goes for Danish physicians, unless you have some other explanation for the publication of pharmaceutical company sponsored clinical trials in medical journals by Danish physicians.

I have experience working with people on advisory committees in both the US and Canada. My impression is that the biggest reason for any differences in the recommendations is that the people the recommendations are for are different. Americans have different priorities and are operating within a different health care system than you see in Canada or in EU member states. It doesn't make sense to take it out of context when the context is going to lead to differences.

I am not talking bribe, off course not, but if your research is funded by the pharmaceutical industry you just dont say that their products are not needed do you?

It depends upon what the research shows. And the vast majority of physicians are not in that situation, anyway. That a few may be biased doesn't account for the rest. Especially since physicians don't like to agree on anything.

Linda

 

[Deetee]

Talk about strawmen. Get a grip. Tetanus isn't some superbug like Hospital Staph. Exposure happens all the time. It rarely makes anybody sick. You obviously don't know much about Tetanus, or how to make a point for that matter.

Eos is obviously talking about those who are unprotected by the tetanus vaccine.

In the UK, we recently had an epidemic of tetanus in drug users. I had two patients in my hospital who needed prolonged care in ITU (and one had been fully vaccinated as a child).

Lets just take one type of tetanus, neonatal tetanus. In the third world this is reported to affect half a million infants each year. Here you can see some data. A quarter of a million died from this over 2 years 2000-3

What was it you said again? "Exposure happens all the time. It rarely makes anybody sick. You obviously don't know much about Tetanus"

 

[Deetee]

Evidence? I don't need evidence for something that is so trivially obvious to me. If you need evidence to believe that. Well. I'd say you misunderstand the concept of skepticism.

It's quite obvious what you are. Troll, nothing more, probably less. You display total bewilderment/ignorance at the concept of critical thinking, rational appraisal of evidence and the scientific method.

Hypocratic oath is "Do no harm", not "Do something! Anything! Now!!" Getting _any_ treatment is dangerous and risky in any case. There could be misdiagnosis, misapplication, labels got switched. It's risky. The argument that "any" medication is better than "no" medication is the biggest fraud big pharma ever made people believe. Congratulations: You're a dupe. Duped by the pharma industry.

Right... homeopathy causes tetanus... see above.

Duped, deluxe, with stars.

How about I just do nothing. Since tetanus' bacteria are everywhere, I guess I'm doomed.

Yup - getting any treatment is dangerous. If I wasn't a nice person, I'd say that the sooner you get a significant illness the sooner you'll come to your senses. However, I suspect that even if that happened, cognitive dissonance would prevail.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

I have experience working with people on advisory committees in both the US and Canada. My impression is that the biggest reason for any differences in the recommendations is that the people the recommendations are for are different. Americans have different priorities and are operating within a different health care system than you see in Canada or in EU member states. It doesn't make sense to take it out of context when the context is going to lead to differences.

I think that is probably right. I get the impression getting sick in the US, even if treatment leads to a full recovery, can be a very expensive business. In the UK we tend to be less uptight about illness, probably because we know the cost of treatment is not going to bankrupt us.

It depends upon what the research shows. And the vast majority of physicians are not in that situation, anyway. That a few may be biased doesn't account for the rest. Especially since physicians don't like to agree on anything.

Linda

Are there any professional groups of people who do like to agree on anything?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Dabljuh is a member of the not-worried-enough well.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Sorry, didn't know that. I was under the impression that it was world wide but fortunately for you some american doctors was wiser.

More accurately she was a Canadian who was working for the FDA. She did become a naturalized American citizen (just like my hubby's parents, dragging him along with them).

 

[LibraryLady]

I got the flu and the pneumonia shot on Wednesday. After the Winter From Hell last year, I'm doing all I can to avoid illness. By this time last year I was already sick and stayed sick until the end of January.

 

[robinson]

Based on this conversation, as well as the vaccine thread, I am going to get a couple of boosters now, rather than wait.

 

[Dabljuh]

I'm gonna do nothing. And continue smoking and drinking like a badass.

I do drink orange juice though.

Lets see who gets the sickest this winter!

 

[robinson]

I was talking about Tetanus and Staph boosters. I got surgery coming up, and both of those can kill you, when it gets put deep inside your body. Lots of stuff that is harmless on the outside, can kill you when it is inserted into your flesh. I lost my best friend to Hospital Staph after he had simple surgery.

A neighbor still has MRSA ten years later, in his artificial hip. He has to take antibiotics or it breaks out. Thank medicine for at least having a vaccine now to prevent super bugs from killing us.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Talk about strawmen. Get a grip. Tetanus isn't some superbug like Hospital Staph. Exposure happens all the time. It rarely makes anybody sick. You obviously don't know much about Tetanus, or how to make a point for that matter.

In regards to Flu shots, Tetanus is a good example of a vaccine that works, if we had a Flu shot that worked as well as a Tetanus shot we wouldn't fear the Flu. Or be having this conversation.

Personally, I don't fear the flu because I do get the vaccine. If I still contract the infection it is most likely going to be mild.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I was talking about Tetanus and Staph boosters. I got surgery coming up, and both of those can kill you, when it gets put deep inside your body. Lots of stuff that is harmless on the outside, can kill you when it is inserted into your flesh. I lost my best friend to Hospital Staph after he had simple surgery.

A neighbor still has MRSI ten years later, in his artificial hip. He has to take antibiotics or it breaks out. Thank medicine for at least having a vaccine now to prevent super bugs from killing us.

That's MRSA, not MRSI, BTW. And if your neighbor has had ten years on prophylactic antibiotics after a hip replacement, I hope he's considered getting a second opinion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm gonna do nothing. And continue smoking and drinking like a badass.

I do drink orange juice though.

Lets see who gets the sickest this winter!

Is that OJ reference because you believe vitamin C is going to protect you from infection?