Falluja: Dire Results.....

Oh the irony.

The PM programme on BBC Radio 4 the other afternoon included a typically emotive report by Feargal Keane on the Sudanese government's violent eviction of the El-Geer refugee camp in Darfur. He spoke to refugees who had been tear gassed and we heard from a mother who had lost her baby son in the chaos and was understandably in terrible distress (we later heard that he had been found). Mr Keane stated that the actions of the Sudanese government in forceably displacing civilians were in clear breach of international law. He left us in little doubt as to the suffering of the civilians who were subject to these illegal policies.

Following the report, Eddie Mair interviewed the Sudanese ambassador to the UK. The ambassador attempted to justify his government's conduct but his claim that the refugees had been moved on legitimately was hardly plausible. Mair discredited his arguments and accused the Sudanese of breaking international law. No one would deny that this accusation had considerable force.

On the same day as the Sudanese government was clearing the El-Geer camp using plastic bullets and tear gas, the US military was engaged in a bloody attack on the city of Fallujah.
Fallujah has been under siege for months, subject to constant bombardment. The US has forced the majority of the population to leave their homes and those who remain have been exposed to a military assault of almost unimaginable ferocity.

Over this period, I cannot recall one single media or BBC report which conveyed the suffering of civilians in Fallujah with the same force as Keane's report did those in El-Geer. I appreciate the difficulties for journalists reporting from Fallujah, but there have been reports from independent journalists in the city nonetheless which show that it is not impossible to do so.
Much of the civilian population has left in the past few months. Why have we not heard from them about their experiences of life in the city under US seige?

At the same time, we have heard repeatedly that Fallujah is under the control of foreign fighters and that its people are being held hostage. Over the past week, many reporters and journalists have stated on numerous occasions that the decision to attack Fallujah would be taken by Ayad Allawi, Iraq's "sovereign" leader, rather than the US authorities and we have heard Allawi, as well as US and UK politicians state that the aim of the assault was to liberate the people of Fallujah from foreign fighters and Jihadists. BBC journalists for example, have referred to Fallujah again and again as a "militant stronghold," echoing official justifications for the assault.

These excuses and justifications are scarcely more credible than those employed by the Sudanese ambassador for his government's crimes, but I have yet to hear them challenged by a BBC reporter or any other media interviewer in the same way that Eddie Mair challenged him the other afternoon. Further still, I have not once heard a BBC reporter or reporter for any other mainstream media outlet accuse the US of breaking international law, despite the numerous, clear breaches of the Geneva Conventions for which the US has been responsible in the assault on Fallujah.
I have not once heard a BBC interviewer or other mainstream media journalist accuse a US or British politician of crimes against humanity, which was Mair's suggestion to the Sudanese ambassador today.

Why is it that the BBC and other influential media pundits are able to convey the suffering of Sudanese civilians at the hands of government forces, but not that of Iraqi civilians at the hands of the US? Why is it that the forceable expulsion of Sudanese civilians from their refugee camps is called a crime when the forceable expulsion of Iraqis from Fallujah is not? Why are the shallow lies of a Sudanese politician so easily dismantled by BBC interviewers when those of our leaders are normally left unchallenged?
Just another in a long line of examples that indicate that double standards are at work. No change there then.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
We've been over this a million times. The U.N. thought Saddam had WMD, European intelligence services thought Saddam had WMD and American intelligence thought Saddam had WMD. No one has found WMD, but then no one has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam didn't have WMD. Lack of evidence is not evidence. I don't need the WMD excuse to "justify" the removal of Saddam and his Baath party faithfuls. Nor do I use the WMD excuse to vilify America.


Well, there's your first mistake. The UN thought he might have had WMD, and was invesitgating if he actually did or not. Part of the reason the invasion had to be hurried was so that the investigation was not finished with the conclusion that there were no WMD.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:



No one has found WMD, but then no one has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam didn't have WMD. Lack of evidence is not evidence.




Sigh, you really don't understand scepticism do you.


If you make a claim it is up to you to find the evidence to back up that claim. If you make a claim and undertake an investigation to search for evidence, and that investigation fails to find data supporting the claim then that is evidence that the claim is false. This is just an aspect of the well known ( but not to you apparently ) axiom that one cannot prove a negative.

In the case of Iraq the US made the claim that Iraq had WMDs. They failed to provide any significant evidence of that claim to the UN investigators and forced the investigators to leave before they had concluded their searches. This is evidence that the U.S. did not take it's own claim seriously but that it was merely a pretext for invasion.

The subsequent failure by trained and motivated investigators to find useable or significant quantities of WMDs, precursor chemicals, production facilities etc is abundant evidence of the absence of such things.
 
Some questions regarding the Fallujah assault. Did the Americans believe that enough insurgents would be killed in their assault to alter the course of the Iraqi occupation in U.S. favor? Did not the U.S. intention to attack receive enough prior publicity to permit most of the insurgents in Fallujah to escape into the desert? Is it not likely that attacks by insurgents in other areas are staged by insurgents previously quartered in Fallujah? What would be the value in razing a city devoid of significant insurgent forces? How does the U.S. military tell whether a male corpse is civilian or insurgent?
 
originally posted by zenith-nadir[/I[
# 1958 - Saddam connived in a plot to kill the prime minister, Abdel-Karim Qassem. But the conspiracy was discovered, and Saddam fled the country.
# 1968 - In a coup Saddam Hussein gained a position on the ruling Revolutionary Command Council.
# 1980 - Saddam ordered a surprise cross-border attack on Iran.
# 1988 - In attempts to suppress the Kurds, Saddam systematically used chemical weapons.
# 1988-99 - Saddam's younger son Qusay authorized interrogation, jailing, and execution of political prisoners and their families. He periodically ordered during 1988-99 mass prison executions of several thousand inmates ("prison cleansing"), led crackdown against the al-Dulaym tribe in 1995 and local Shi'a revolt in 1997.

And despite knowing that the man was a mass murderer and terorising his own people the USA and others continued to supply him with aid and weapons.
 
originally posted by Lemastre[/I}How does the U.S. military tell whether a male corpse is civilian or insurgent?

This is a key question. UK news outlets have been reporting figures from the US military that 600 insurgents have been killed yet they list not one single innocent person as having been killed. The UK knows these figures are false because other press outlets have obtained evidence that children have been killed by US fire.

How can we believe the US figures when they don't even count civilian casualties?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

a_unique_person said:
Well, there's your first mistake. The UN thought he might have had WMD, and was invesitgating if he actually did or not. Part of the reason the invasion had to be hurried was so that the investigation was not finished with the conclusion that there were no WMD.

12 years was more than sufficient.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Nikk said:
Sigh, you really don't understand scepticism do you.


If you make a claim it is up to you to find the evidence to back up that claim. If you make a claim and undertake an investigation to search for evidence, and that investigation fails to find data supporting the claim then that is evidence that the claim is false. This is just an aspect of the well known ( but not to you apparently ) axiom that one cannot prove a negative.

In the case of Iraq the US made the claim that Iraq had WMDs. They failed to provide any significant evidence of that claim to the UN investigators and forced the investigators to leave before they had concluded their searches. This is evidence that the U.S. did not take it's own claim seriously but that it was merely a pretext for invasion.

The subsequent failure by trained and motivated investigators to find useable or significant quantities of WMDs, precursor chemicals, production facilities etc is abundant evidence of the absence of such things.
First of all WMD can fit in a vial, those vials can be put in a briefcase and stored away in a home safe. A 40 gallon drum can be filled with WMD and buried in a bunker the desert or transported on trucks to a neighboring country. Hell I can fill an envelope with WMD and mail it as we all know.

Now the same people who told us WMD exsisted and needed to be inspected for are now telling us they don't exsist after all. Even though Saddam used WMD on hs own people repeatedly I am now suppose to automatically believe that he gave up on WMD and there is not a shred of evidence.

Popular belief was that Coelacanths didn't exsist anymore until one was caught, I feel the same way about Saddam's WMD. I'll give it a few years before I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, call me a sceptic...oh wait...you just told me I really don't understand scepticism..;)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
First of all WMD can fit in a vial, those vials can be put in a briefcase and stored away in a home safe. A 40 gallon drum can be filled with WMD and buried in a bunker the desert or transported on trucks to a neighboring country. Hell I can fill an envelope with WMD and mail it as we all know.

Sure you can. Now try attacking another country with it. Tell me how many people you kill.

Now the same people who told us WMD exsisted and needed to be inspected for are now telling us they don't exsist after all. Even though Saddam used WMD on hs own people repeatedly I am now suppose to automatically believe that he gave up on WMD and there is not a shred of evidence.

There is plenty of evidence, you're just too stupid to look for it, first. This can be your little assignment: Find the evidence that Saddam destroyed his WMD's and programs pre-Gulf War II.

You don't need to find any pre-Gulf war II evidence (ie, articles, papers or reports that were written before 20 March 2003), although that existed, too. Anything after the war started will be fine.

Popular belief was that Coelacanths didn't exsist anymore until one was caught, I feel the same way about Saddam's WMD. I'll give it a few years before I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, call me a sceptic...oh wait...you just told me I really don't understand scepticism..;)

The 'Coelacanth' argument is exactly the same argument used by people seeking to prove the existence of Sasquatches and the Loch Ness Monster. It holds just as much water for those people as it will for you.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Mr Manifesto said:
Sure you can. Now try attacking another country with it. Tell me how many people you kill.
This morality lesson coming from a guy squatting on land stolen from slaughtered Aboriginies.

Mr Manifesto said:
The 'Coelacanth' argument is exactly the same argument used by people seeking to prove the existence of Sasquatches and the Loch Ness Monster. It holds just as much water for those people as it will for you.
Except for the uncomfortable fact that the Coelacanth was found. So in order to dismiss the fact that a Coelacanth was found you lump the Coelacanth discovery in with Sasquatches and the Loch Ness Monster. Typical Mr. Manafizzle tricks.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
This morality lesson coming from a guy squatting on land stolen from slaughtered Aboriginies.

Do you mind my asking... are you retarded? Your response had nothing whatsoever to do with my post. Which wasn't, incidentally, a morality lesson by any stretch of the imagination.

Assuming you do have some mental disability, let me give you a tip for an easier forum-using experience: If you don't understand what someone has said, feel free to ask for clarification. If, after that, you still don't understand, always remember that you don't have to answer.

Except for the uncomfortable fact that the Coelacanth was found. So in order to dismiss the fact that a Coelacanth was found you lump the Coelacanth discovery in with Sasquatches and the Loch Ness Monster. Typical Mr. Manafizzle tricks.
No, the discovery of the Coelacanth wasn't 'uncomfortable' at all. Because it doesn't prove anything except that sometimes something which is thought not to be the case turns out to be the case. However, this happens very, very rarely. If you live your life on the off-chance that Coelacanths are going to be discovered (or Sasquatches, Nessies, or WMD's), then you're going to find yourself making some very unfortunate decisions. As we've seen in the Iraqi war.

I noticed you avoided my second paragraph. Could it be that the dim confines of your mind have been ever-so-slightly lit by reality, and you're starting to realise that no credible source believes that Saddam had WMD's?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Mr Manifesto said:
Do you mind my asking... are you retarded?
Wow I haven't heard that zinger since junior high...
Mr Manifesto said:
I noticed you avoided my second paragraph.
Probably because it was unimportant, immaterial and pointless.
 
Someone, [i]please[/i], buy this guy a clue...

zenith-nadir said:
Wow I haven't heard that zinger since junior high...
I was not joking, it was a serious question. And I think you'll find that if you talk to those people you went to junior high with, you'll find that they were asking a serious question, too...

Probably because it was unimportant, immaterial and pointless.

...and that it's because of mental contortions like the above that they felt compelled to ask.
 
Re: Someone, [i]please[/i], buy this guy a clue...

Mr Manifesto said:
I was not joking, it was a serious question. And I think you'll find that if you talk to those people you went to junior high with, you'll find that they were asking a serious question, too......and that it's because of mental contortions like the above that they felt compelled to ask.
You don't faze me Mr.Manafizzle. Nor am I so child-like that I will put you on ignore.

The only thing you do for me is make me wonder why JREF has not removed a troll like you. Your M.O. is well documented. It consists of personal attacks and the derailing of threads. You are a troll in every sense of the word. You have alienated a large majority of the posters here - which is ALSO well documented - and if I was an Admin I would ask you to troll elsewhere. But hey... you will respond in your usual troll-like form and derail this thread even further with personal attacks towards me. That's ok I have broad shoulders.
 
Re: Re: Someone, [i]please[/i], buy this guy a clue...

zenith-nadir said:
You don't faze me Mr.Manafizzle. Nor am I so child-like that I will put you on ignore.

The only thing you do for me is make me wonder why JREF has not removed a troll like you. Your M.O. is well documented. It consists of personal attacks and the derailing of threads. You are a troll in every sense of the word. You have alienated a large majority of the posters here - which is ALSO well documented - and if I was an Admin I would ask you to troll elsewhere. But hey... you will respond in your usual troll-like form and derail this thread even further with personal attacks towards me. That's ok I have broad shoulders.

I see a lot of projection in this post.
 
originally posted by zenith-nadir
You have alienated a large majority of the posters here - which is ALSO well documented - and if I was an Admin I would ask you to troll elsewhere.

Large majority. Well documented. Interesting. Either zenith-nadir has: -

1/ evidence to justify this latest claim. If so, he will naturally want to provide it in detail so that the truth of this latest claim can be assessed. Or he

2/ just made it up. If so, he will fail to provide the detailed evidence needed to support his claim and he will be seen to be another Uri Geller clone, making random false claims with no regard, either for accuracy or the truth.
 
Re: Re: Re: Someone, [i]please[/i], buy this guy a clue...

Mr Manifesto said:
I see a lot of projection in this post.

Not to mention alot of truth! ;)
 
Lemastre said:
Some questions regarding the Fallujah assault. Did the Americans believe that enough insurgents would be killed in their assault to alter the course of the Iraqi occupation in U.S. favor? Did not the U.S. intention to attack receive enough prior publicity to permit most of the insurgents in Fallujah to escape into the desert? Is it not likely that attacks by insurgents in other areas are staged by insurgents previously quartered in Fallujah? What would be the value in razing a city devoid of significant insurgent forces? How does the U.S. military tell whether a male corpse is civilian or insurgent?

A very intelligent question which requires an answer of the same calibre. I've also been looking for a real answer to your question.

The following sounds like the best explanation of the actual "big-picture" strategic situation in the Sunni Triangle.

Ba'ath General "Resistance" leader Speaks:

We are very satisfied indeed concerning the reality of the resistance and its results on the terrain. The Resistance in fact has become an every day popular state no one can ignore. We can speak about the Resistance in two terms: First in Iraqi terms: the Resistance has spread its complete control over a great number of Iraqi towns. What is happening in Fallujah, Samaraa, Qaem, Baaquba, Hawijah, Tallafar, Heet, Saqlawyia, Ramadi, Anah, Rawa, Haditha, Balad, Beiji, Bahraz, Baladruz, and other cities and towns of Iraq, confirm perfectly this reality. The Resistance also controls totally some areas in Baghdad and its suburbs such as Yusufya, Latifya, Abu Ghraib, and Mahmudya, which shows the political and the security impasse encountered by the Occupiers and their agents. Here we have to mention the widespread popular cover the Resistance enjoys in these areas and elsewhere, rendering all Iraqi resistance fighters in the confrontation moments with the enemy.

... After this rapid and summary lecture of the Iraqi resistance reality, I can say that we are very confident about the future. What we planned before the Occupation is being achieved on the terrain in a good way. This shows the correct political and military Iraqi leadership long-term vision, when it planned the Resistance and started its fire. There is a unified military leadership, which leads the operations in the terrain in every town of Iraq. This leadership includes the best officers of the Iraqi Army, the Republican Guard, Saddam’s Fidayyins, and the Security and Intelligence services. What is happening in the Provinces of al Anbar, Diyala, Mosul, and Salah el Din, Babel and elsewhere is a bright sign of what I am telling you.
LINK

This bit of propaganda has been rendered down to it's real meaning here:

There are two factual nuggets in this screed. First, it gives us a map of the the towns which the enemy considers its bastions. Second, it hints of a fallback plan conceived before the launch of Operation Iraqi Freedom, a subject earlier discussed in War Plan Orange. By plotting the enemy strongholds on the map it is at once evident that they are coextensive with two pathways. The first goes northward along the Euphrates from western Baghdad, Fallujah, Ramadi, Hadithah, Anah and Qusabayah -- along the river and road from Baghdad to the Syrian border. The omission of Qusabayah from mention is very peculiar, since it has been the scene of battalion sized battles between infiltrators and Marines guarding the Syrian frontier since the earliest post-OIF days, but I include it here on that account. The second set of towns goes northeast along the Tigris towards Tikrit and parts of Kurdistan: Hawijah, Balad and Samarra. A spur runs off toward the Iranian border: Baqubah and Baladruz, on the road to the Iran. It is hard not to think that we are looking at their lines of communication.

The towns along these pathways are probably waystations where men and weapons can be smuggled by stages, a kind of Sunni Ho Chi Minh Trail. My own guess is they are probably superimposed on traditional smuggling routes from Syria and Iran which have now been converted to serve the enemy cause. I caution the reader that this is guesswork, but I think it is correct. The discovery of carbomb factories in Fallujah suggests that town was the easternmost terminus of a finger that extended straight from the Syrian border, a final launching pad where enemy delivery systems were "bombed up" for their sorties at US targets in the city or as convoys made their way along the highways west of Baghdad.

Taking Fallujah then, was not merely a symbolic political act to reduce a 'symbol of defiance', but a sound operational move. It interdicts the conveyor belt of destruction that flowed from the Syrian border towards Baghdad. The logical next step is to cut the line again near the Syrian border, perhaps at Anah, so that by taking out both ends the middle is left unsupported. Alternatively, the US could roll up the enemy line of communication going north by taking out Ramadi which would force the enemy to sortie from Haditha, a little ville a lot farther from Baghdad. Although this will not totally destroy the insurgency, it will throttle movement along their lines of communication considerably. Guerilla warfare, like all warfare, is logistics. It just takes different forms.

So, follow those links and tell me what you think. That page has many permalinks to sites which back up the assessment. Does it answer your question?

-z
 
rikzilla said:
So, follow those links and tell me what you think. That page has many permalinks to sites which back up the assessment. Does it answer your question?

Well, reading his questions, you answered only number 4 of the five (also a bit of #1), but you answered it so well I haven't the heart to razz you about it....:p

I would note that if what is said in your post is correct, and it certainly sounds plausible, is that a lighter and more mobile force (not faster, per se, but not having to bring tanks, artillery, and support vehicles to the party makes them easily to re-deploy) can find new routes easier than an attacking force can close them--particularily if they have 'friends' over the border who have already scoped out some replacement routes pending this attack.

I think the last question of Lemastre "How do you tell a male corpse is civilian or insurgent?" deserves a slight amendment, in that one needs to add "...if said corpse is unarmed." as someone lying dead with an RPG in his possession is a pretty good bet to be an insurgent. Problem is, US troops (or fellow insurgents) tend to remove these before the pictures get taken, so the question is left dangling.

Hopefully the body counts are not being done by the same folks who helped General Westmoreland's career....

edited to correct the more appalling typos..
 

Back
Top Bottom