Falluja: Dire Results.....

Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:

Did you want to show the class your new-found research skills, or something? That's the only reason I can think of that would explain this post. It certainly wasn't because you were keeping up with the conversation.
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Oh, while we're at it? You're a moron on a second count. If you'd bothered to do any research, you'd realise that the boys were pushed into the water by US soldiers, who were subsequently charged with manslaughter. I believe if you search this forum for one of my 'hearts and minds' threads, you'll see I mentioned it at the time it happened.

ETA: Since you obviously don't know how to do a search...

And this does nothing but prove the only claim I've made about the Iraqi Body Count site being worthless. Their site says two boys swimming drowned. If you are sure that the links you've provided are in fact the specific incident they mention, then it shows their inability to accurately report on what they claim to be reporting on for an accurate count.

You're tripping on your attempts to feed your ego
 
Troll said:
And this does nothing but prove the only claim I've made about the Iraqi Body Count site being worthless. Their site says two boys swimming drowned. If you are sure that the links you've provided are in fact the specific incident they mention, then it shows their inability to accurately report on what they claim to be reporting on for an accurate count.

You're tripping on your attempts to feed your ego

You'll have to tell me where it says that. The bit I read said,

Iraqi cousins Zaidoun Fadel Hassoun and Marwan Fadel Hassoun, Zaidoun drowned

With


as the 'weapon'.

ETA Link
 
Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Mr Manifesto said:
Did you want to show the class your new-found research skills, or something? That's the only reason I can think of that would explain this post. It certainly wasn't because you were keeping up with the conversation.

I thought zenith-nadir's post had a nice 'subgenius'-like quality to it... :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Mr Manifesto said:
Did you want to show the class your new-found research skills, or something? That's the only reason I can think of that would explain this post. It certainly wasn't because you were keeping up with the conversation.
You're obviously right. How dare I impune the impeccable credentials of the Saddam supporters the Americans are "unjustly" fighting.


  • 1958 - Saddam connived in a plot to kill the prime minister, Abdel-Karim Qassem. But the conspiracy was discovered, and Saddam fled the country.
  • 1968 - In a coup Saddam Hussein gained a position on the ruling Revolutionary Command Council.
  • 1980 - Saddam ordered a surprise cross-border attack on Iran.
  • 1988 - In attempts to suppress the Kurds, Saddam systematically used chemical weapons.
  • 1988-99 - Saddam's younger son Qusay authorized interrogation, jailing, and execution of political prisoners and their families. He periodically ordered during 1988-99 mass prison executions of several thousand inmates ("prison cleansing"), led crackdown against the al-Dulaym tribe in 1995 and local Shi'a revolt in 1997.
  • 1990 - Saddam made another costly blunder by ordering his army into the Kuwait.
  • 1996 - Uday was credited with having a part in the killing of his two brothers-in-law, Hussein Kamel and Saddam Kamel, who were married to Uday's sisters Raghd and Rana.
  • 1998 - Uday killed Hanna Jajo, Saddam's most trusted food-taster and procurer of women.
  • 2001 - Saad Keis Naoman, an Iraqi soccer player who defected to Europe, reported that he and his teammates were beaten and humiliated at the order of Uday Saddam Hussein for poor performances.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
You're obviously right. How dare I impune the impeccable credentials of the Saddam supporters the Americans are "unjustly" fighting.


  • 1958 - Saddam connived in a plot to kill the prime minister, Abdel-Karim Qassem. But the conspiracy was discovered, and Saddam fled the country.
  • 1968 - In a CIA-backed coup Saddam Hussein gained a position on the ruling Revolutionary Command Council.
  • 1980 - Saddam ordered a surprise cross-border attack on Iran.
  • 1988 - In attempts to suppress the Kurds, Saddam systematically used chemical weapons.
  • 1988-99 - Saddam's younger son Qusay authorized interrogation, jailing, and execution of political prisoners and their families. He periodically ordered during 1988-99 mass prison executions of several thousand inmates ("prison cleansing"), led crackdown against the al-Dulaym tribe in 1995 and local Shi'a revolt in 1997.
  • 1990 - Saddam made another costly blunder by ordering his army into the Kuwait.
  • 1996 - Uday was credited with having a part in the killing of his two brothers-in-law, Hussein Kamel and Saddam Kamel, who were married to Uday's sisters Raghd and Rana.
  • 1998 - Uday killed Hanna Jajo, Saddam's most trusted food-taster and procurer of women.
  • 2001 - Saad Keis Naoman, an Iraqi soccer player who defected to Europe, reported that he and his teammates were beaten and humiliated at the order of Uday Saddam Hussein for poor performances.

Wow, a cut and paste without attribution! Nice work! Well, not your work, of course, but still!

Anyway, two points.

First of all, the above reasons weren't the reasons why the US-led coaltion went to war with Iraq. If these had been the reasons given to the public, the support for a war against Iraq would not have been to little to make the decision tenable. Why?

Because, second, it isn't up to the US to decide how a nation is run. It's a reality the US has been very slow to face, which is a pity, because it may have prevented dictators like Hussein and Pinochet from getting into power in the first place. We can't turn back the clock, but you'd think a country would at least learn from its mistakes.

Where is the US going to go from here? Indonesia? Myanmar Republic? Phillipines? China? Half of Africa? Is the US going to keep invading countries, deposing leaders, and setting up puppet democracies until the whole world is made in the vision of whatever the US thinks is 'freedom'? Sorry, but I don't trust a country largely lead by insular sociopaths to tell the world what's right.
 
Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:

Ok, you can show, not that anyone had any doubt, that Saddamn and his boys were murderous, dishonest, power-mad thugs.

I think we all accept that.

Please explain how we get from there to WMD. What WMD?

We're all still waiting.

Now, taking down Saddamn wasn't a bad idea, but having a lot more support, both in Iraq and outside, wouldn't have been such a bad thing.
 
Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

jj said:
Ok, you can show, not that anyone had any doubt, that Saddamn and his boys were murderous, dishonest, power-mad thugs. I think we all accept that.
We've been over this a million times. The U.N. thought Saddam had WMD, European intelligence services thought Saddam had WMD and American intelligence thought Saddam had WMD. No one has found WMD, but then no one has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam didn't have WMD. Lack of evidence is not evidence. I don't need the WMD excuse to "justify" the removal of Saddam and his Baath party faithfuls. Nor do I use the WMD excuse to vilify America.

I have a big problem when guys like Mr. Manafizzle use the WMD excuse to say hey, America is the bad guy cuz they lied about WMD and they are exceptionally bad for removing a murderous, dishonest, power-mad thug like Saddam. How dare they.

Then he uses the old "slippery slope argument" and claims the next thing you know Americans will want to remove oppressive bad guys in other places. How evil those Americans must be. If only they would let the murderous, dishonest, power-mad thugs be....that is the ones they are not responsible for... ;)

For instance;

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Because, second, it isn't up to the US to decide how a nation is run. It's a reality the US has been very slow to face, which is a pity, because it may have prevented dictators like Hussein and Pinochet from getting into power in the first place. We can't turn back the clock, but you'd think a country would at least learn from its mistakes.
Saddam came into power because of a coup, not because America propped him up in Iraq. But try to tell that to Mr. Manafizzle.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
Well how can I argue with an article from "The Independent Institute". Time to change all the history books folks...;)

>sigh< They sure don't come much dumber than you.

First of all, that's just the website... The article is from the SF Chronicle.

Maybe you don't agree with the SF Chronicle, next. Because, I don't know, they use the wrong font for their headers or whatever dopey reason you need. Fine. Google 'CIA backed coup Iraq Saddam'. You'll find that it isn't disputed.

Your problem is you spend so much time listening to the sound of your own voice, echoing in your cavernous colon, that you don't actually bother to learn about the history of the events that you blather about. Do yourself a favour, do a little reading before posting next time. And, no, that doesn't mean skimming headline grabs from Yahoo!.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Mr Manifesto said:
>sigh< They sure don't come much dumber than you.

First of all, that's just the website... The article is from the SF Chronicle.
Well that's proves that "The Independent Institute" must be right. They quoted an article from a second-rate newspaper.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
Well that's proves that "The Independent Institute" must be right. They quoted an article from a second-rate newspaper.

It's very telling that you simply vilify the sources of facts that you find inconvenient.

Is there a reason for that? What is being pointed out about Saddamn is hardly a mystery or a surprise.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

jj said:
It's very telling that you simply vilify the sources of facts that you find inconvenient. Is there a reason for that? What is being pointed out about Saddamn is hardly a mystery or a surprise.
First of all lets look at who you are defending. Mr. Manafizzle is vilifying America for invading Iraq. Then he goes one step further and vilifies America for "creating" Saddam, or so the inconvenient source claims. So Mr. Manafizzle's argument is that America is evil for "creating" Saddam and evil for removing Saddam. Wow, can't argue with that line of logic.

And then out of the blue you're here to defend his sources. I know the CIA is into alot of things around the world. They are after all an external spy agency and external spy agencies can't lay down with dogs and not get a few fleas.

I have no problem with a CIA/Saddam connection, what I do have a problem with is Mr. Manafizzles endless tirades about how evil America is...or haven't you noticed that modus operandi. ;)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
First of all lets look at who you are defending.


Falsified straw man. I'm attacking YOUR claims, no more. I'm not DEFENDING anyone.


Mr. Manafizzle is vilifying America for invading Iraq.


Then take that up with him, why don't you.


Then he goes one step further and vilifies America for "creating" Saddam, or so the inconvenient source claims.


You ought to be doing more reading. That "inconvenient" source isn't the only comment to that effect. Try the "Economist", perhaps, or even some good conservative news magazine.


So Mr. Manafizzle's argument is that America is evil for "creating" Saddam and evil for removing Saddam. Wow, can't argue with that line of logic.


Whatever your problem with Manifesto is, it doesn't justify your vilifying an organization for saying something that's been said in many places, softly to loudly, and with at least some shreds of what look like actual evidence.

Take your problems with Manifesto out on Manifesto.


And then out of the blue you're here to defend his sources. I know the CIA is into alot of things around the world. They are after all an external spy agency and external spy agencies can't lay down with dogs and not get a few fleas.


I agree, but that doesn't deny what he's pointed out.

The CIA has a very hard job, and their crystal ball, just like everyone else's, is completely cloudy.

On the other hand, there was a time in our foreign policy, and you should see who was running CIA at the time, when we had some apparently very ill-advised covert actions in many places, not just Iraq. It's something you have to admit, I think, if you've read the details.

Some I can ascribe to the cloudy crystal ball, of course, but some appears to be a more basic arrogance, or perhaps ignorance, at work. Of course, nobody here (well, I think, nobody, at least) has enough information to know for sure.


I have no problem with a CIA/Saddam connection, what I do have a problem with is Mr. Manafizzles endless tirades about how evil America is...or haven't you noticed that modus operandi. ;)

Well, in case you haven't noticed, I mostly ignore Manifesto, except when he gets into my face, and then I trash him quite directly. He's like Al Sharpton, Ann Coulter, and Rush Limbaugh, he should just be ignored.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

zenith-nadir said:
We've been over this a million times. The U.N. thought Saddam had WMD, European intelligence services thought Saddam had WMD and American intelligence thought Saddam had WMD. No one has found WMD, but then no one has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Saddam didn't have WMD. Lack of evidence is not evidence. I don't need the WMD excuse to "justify" the removal of Saddam and his Baath party faithfuls. Nor do I use the WMD excuse to vilify America.

On the other hand, the evidence is out regarding WMD's, and it seems pretty clear that it should have been obvious that our chain was being yanked from here to there.

You must not read the same European reports that I do, the WMD information was already questioned in lots of places.

This, of course, doesn't mean that Saddamn had a reason to exist. That's a separate question, but one that allows for a lot more preparation, politically, socially, and strategically, and one that potentially, at least, allows for many more allies.
 
jj said:
On the other hand, the evidence is out regarding WMD's, and it seems pretty clear that it should have been obvious that our chain was being yanked from here to there.
So who was yanking whos chain? Cuz if memory serves me correctly the U.N. also thought Saddam had WMD which they desired to inspect for.
jj said:
You must not read the same European reports that I do, the WMD information was already questioned in lots of places.
Questioned, sure...proven not to exsist, not in the slightest. Everyone is a Monday morning quarterback when it comes to the Iraqi WMD...especially some Europeans and most Democrats. I would rather my government err on the side of caution than believe Saddam's endless promises or Chirac's promses or Kofi Annan's promises. Look what Kofi Annan's promises have brought to Sudan or Kosovo or Rwanda.

Anyhow I am not going to get into the Iraq debate. That has been debated ten ways to sunday. I find Mr. Manafizzle objectionable. I also find that his constant America bashing exsists only to support his delusional world view. Perhaps that is why I interpreted your position regarding his obscure source as defence for him.
 
War

I think that this war will eventually rank right up there with one of the stupidest wars ever.

And certainly it is dire results for those that lose their lives in fighting for places like Fallujah and so some Iraqi can vote.

I got an idea, why not let countries such as Iraq be responsible for their own liberation?

I'm not sure how many we have lost so far, but I am sure it is over a 1000. And for what?

Thanks a lot George W. Bush.
 
Overwhelming military force is not the answer

One more thing I can add is that Fallujah IMO demonstrates that overwhelming military force is not the answer. If it was then Iraq should be by this time one of the most peaceful places on Earth. It clearly isn't, and the Coalition is losing its grip on winning the peace more than ever before.

Sad but true:(
 
Now that we are focusing our efforts on Fallujah, Samarra, which US military officials reported was "recaptured" and "pacified" last month, has erupted into chaos again.

It does not appear that U.S. military strategy in Iraq is doing anything to curb the insurgency. The frequency and intensity of insurgent attacks across Iraq are as high now as they have been since the fall of Saddam's regime. WTF?
 

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