Falluja: Dire Results.....

[DaveW]

If he does, then, well, so does everybody who ever seriously planned a military operation.

It´s called "considering all possibilities".

Remember, usually it´s not the stuff you know about that gets you, it´s the stuff you don´t know about. And a lot of the preparation for military operations is minimizing the "don´t know about" part.

I seriously hope you meant that they plan for failures, not that they hope for failure, as Kodiak said.

 

[Troll]

If you want to debate the site with yourself, please do, no one was asking your opinion about it. The question was, does the US count civilians deaths, the answer is 'no'.

Not debating the site. I made a comment on it. The comment i made was definitive and not up for debating.

I said the answer was no already.

What we have here now is you actually trying to carry on a conversation that doesn't need to be had at all and me making fun of you for it.

 

[jj]

And a General that does not anticipate the worst usually gets it--ask BGSPC (sic) about General Hooker and Chancellorsville.

Well, there's always George Armstrong Custer, too.

"I've got the I don't know where I'm going
But I'm goin' nowhere in a hurry blues"

 

[crocodile deathroll]

IMHO The biggest headache for Bush will not be al-Qaeda nor will it be foreign fighters fighting a so called "Jihad" but the biggest obstacle will be Iraqi trained troops defecting over to the insurgency. And I am sure the insurgency will have no shortage of volunteers after Fullujah is finished with. It is, and always will be kind of like the French resistance after Hitler had invaded.
The unwelcome foreign fighters from their point of view would be the Americans.

CDR

 

[a_unique_person]

IMHO The biggest headache for Bush will not be al-Qaeda nor will it be foreign fighters fighting a so called "Jihad" but the biggest obstacle will be Iraqi trained troops defecting over to the insurgency. And I am sure the insurgency will have no shortage of volunteers after Fullujah is finished with. It is, and always will be kind of like the French resistance after Hitler had invaded.
The unwelcome foreign fighters from their point of view would be the Americans.

CDR

Now you've done it, you've compared the Americans to the Nazis.

 

[demon]

I see the attacks at Baquba today were claimed by Signor al-Zarqawi. I keep waiting for one of the embeds to question the military about the ease with which the most wanted man in the world moves around Iraq.

Biking with one leg is a sod of a job.

 

[crocodile deathroll]

Rule #1 do not fire on your own compatriots

Now you've done it, you've compared the Americans to the Nazis.

Only in as much as they are an occupying power, but that is enough for large proportion of Iraqi nationals. It is only human nature to oppose an occupation no matter how good their intentions.
Just imagine how Americans would feel if an occupying military power like say the Chinese ordered them to fire on their own compatriots. I doubt if the majority of Americans and us Australians would ever allow foreigners to order them to fire on our own compatriots under any circumstances no matter what the cause. This is exactly what is happening in Fallujah at them moment.

In Iraq, Americans, British and Australians are considered to be foreigners
One must not ignore the fact as soon as you leave your country and step off the plane into another you are a foreigner.

CDR

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Well now it is confirmed. Have you ever skimmed through that site? They reported and counted 2 boys who drowned while swimming as a result of the US being there. That site is worthless and lacks credibility.

I don't know what's funnier- that you were too stupid to figure out why I linked to the site in the first place, or your half-assed attempts at trying to cover yourself after AUP called you.

 

[Troll]

I don't know what's funnier- that you were too stupid to figure out why I linked to the site in the first place, or your half-assed attempts at trying to cover yourself after AUP called you.

Personally I'd go with the love fest between you and AUP being the funniest.

Yes you posted it because it quotes Tommy Franks. But you could've posted any number of credible sources that quoted Franks. You didn't. You posted some piece of crap link like you have it saved for use.

So, again for the slow children. I fully understand the question and the answer. I know the answer. That does not disallow me to comment on the link. Use your brain.

 

[evildave]

Wikipedia is not really a good site for anything, imo.

What WOULD be a good site with a balanced selection of sources for counts, then? You do realise that if you know of a factual ommission, you can edit it right into the site? People will review it, and as appropriate, they'll keep, edit or discard your modifications.

I agree with the DOD regarding body counts. It is a lose/lose proposition for them.

Yes, I'm sure it is. Like a serial killer keeping track of their victims in a journal at their trial.

I still don't see how you can tell who is a civilian. Obviously I'd count most children as civilians, and probably most women, but even then we've all seen women and children take up arms.

Well, there you go. Little boys and girls who MIGHT possibly be terrorists because there was a case or two of them being used as bomb mules shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. Shoot and/or bomb first, ask questions later.

I think most Iraqis are very unhappy with the insurgents since they seem to be blowing up far more Iraqis than Americans.

Probably true. Most Americans are unhappy with gang members shooting up American streets.

Iraqbodycount appears to be counting those deliberately blown up by the insurgents as well as those killed during U.S. combat ops. That doesn't seem quite right to me.

Complain to them about their methodology. If you go into L.A., disband the police department and then the streets run red with blood, wouldn't you feel just a little bit responsible?

 

[Kodiak]

If he does, then, well, so does everybody who ever seriously planned a military operation.

It´s called "considering all possibilities".

Remember, usually it´s not the stuff you know about that gets you, it´s the stuff you don´t know about. And a lot of the preparation for military operations is minimizing the "don´t know about" part.

It's not what he said, but his attitude. Hell, I admit I could be wrong...

 

[Kodiak]

Hello, bear-brain, I'm an acoustician, right? Remember? I do signal processing for a living, remember? Who's telling WHO about sonar, guy? Tell you what, Fraunhoffer Diffraction Integrals at 50 paces.

It's not all that simple, especially in "busy" ground with lots of ground workings or unstable regions.

It's also not infallable. I give the infiltrators as much value as I do the ground sonar. That doesn't mean either is useless, but depending on the local terrain either may be better. (Note, I don't know what kind of ground/rock the city sits on, and that makes a great big difference. Sand, for instance, could be a real pain.)

I never said it was simple, or infallible. I simply attempted to inform you (since you did ask...) that the commanders in charge of the attack on Falluja are doing everything possible to make this mission as complete a success as is technologically and humanly possible.

You just gotta vilify, don't you? Couldn't help yourself, could you? Just had to imply something dishonorable about your opponent.

No, I was indicating a sense I was getting from the tone of your posts. As I've already conceded, I could be wrong (but I don't think I am ).

You're another example of the "compassionate conservative", I see.

Who the hell ever said I was compassionate?!?

 

[jj]

I never said it was simple, or infallible. I simply attempted to inform you (since you did ask...) that the commanders in charge of the attack on Falluja are doing everything possible to make this mission as complete a success as is technologically and humanly possible.

I hardly doubt that. Anyone over there, with their neck or whatever on the line, is going to grab every tool they can, and I can't blame them for a second.

The problem I see is that it's hard to tell a civilian from an insurgent, unless you catch the insurgent actually shooting.

As to seismic tools, etc, I'd say MUCH less than infallable. Much better at detection than locating, too. Of course, detecting beats the living (*&*( out of not detecting.

As to your insistance on my political position, you, like the proven liar Patrick, should do their homework before they make such claims. It's irresponsible to do otherwise. Unlike Patrick, you admit that you might be wrong. That's good, I suppose, but you did make an accusation of sorts, and you ought to do your homework first. (And anyone who has done that will be much less likely to say what you did.)

 

[Kodiak]

As to your insistance on my political position, you, like the proven liar Patrick, should do their homework before they make such claims. It's irresponsible to do otherwise. Unlike Patrick, you admit that you might be wrong. That's good, I suppose, but you did make an accusation of sorts, and you ought to do your homework first. (And anyone who has done that will be much less likely to say what you did.)

I made no claims. I simply commented (publicly, for all to see and comment on) on the sense I was getting from the tone of your posts. I've been duly chastised by yourself and others, and apologize if I've concluded wrongly.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Well now it is confirmed. Have you ever skimmed through that site? They reported and counted 2 boys who drowned while swimming as a result of the US being there. That site is worthless and lacks credibility.

Oh, while we're at it? You're a moron on a second count. If you'd bothered to do any research, you'd realise that the boys were pushed into the water by US soldiers, who were subsequently charged with manslaughter. I believe if you search this forum for one of my 'hearts and minds' threads, you'll see I mentioned it at the time it happened.

ETA: Since you obviously don't know how to do a search...

 

[rikzilla]

What WOULD be a good site with a balanced selection of sources for counts, then? You do realise that if you know of a factual ommission, you can edit it right into the site? People will review it, and as appropriate, they'll keep, edit or discard your modifications.Yes, I'm sure it is. Like a serial killer keeping track of their victims in a journal at their trial.Well, there you go. Little boys and girls who MIGHT possibly be terrorists because there was a case or two of them being used as bomb mules shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. Shoot and/or bomb first, ask questions later.Probably true. Most Americans are unhappy with gang members shooting up American streets.

Complain to them about their methodology. If you go into L.A., disband the police department and then the streets run red with blood, wouldn't you feel just a little bit responsible?

Tell me Dave, are you an American? If you aren't then I can understand your pathetic need to make Americans appear to be more bloodthirsty and evil than the average human. It's a pseudo-subtle form of demonization. If you ARE an American and still wish to demonize the US military you are likely a leftist pissed off by your marginalized position. Get over it. The people have spoken. Your rights to speak freely are still intact, but your insistence on making pathetic attempts to demonize our military in a time of war border on the treasonous.

Wars are cruel, dirty, and unjust. In the past war had at least a veneer of honor among the officers and gentlemen of both sides, as well as a real attempt to limit war to combatants on a defined battlefield. Todays WOT pits an honorable uniformed military that traces it's roots in history to such time honored rules of war against a rabble of civilian-disguised murderers who cower in mosques, or behind women and children. These terrorist/insurgents have no internal system of justice. They murder anyone they please...their tactics produce civilian death PURPOSELY. Then these civilian deaths are self-righteously trumpeted by the enemies of America. Enemies both foreign and domestic.

You Dave...if you are American...are either an unwitting tool of our terrorist enemies while thinking yourself an honorable dissenter, or you're a crass traitor to your own people. Either way you personally disgust me. Just MHO.

However...as our election results show...democracy has prevailed. Bush's policies have been vindicated at the ballot box. The US has avenged itself upon Al Qaeda and the Taliban. We have also seen the worth of bringing democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq (and perhaps then to the wider Arab world). The true liberal position would be to create a world where ALL people are free...as free as you Dave...to voice their opinions, to vote their minds without fear of reprisals.

You Dave, have followed your liberal impulses in a skewed way. Your concern for innocent death is being manipulated by our enemies. We are at war. War means innocent death. Terrorists purposely target civilians to enlarge this effect far beyond what has ocurred in previous wars. In such a war "civilian" deaths cannot possibly be accurately quantified. As an avowed skeptic you should know this. Instead you have become the very definition of "useful idiot".

On 9/11 we were attacked by terrorists who used commercial aircraft filled with your random countrymen to hit civilian targets filled with more of your random countrymen. (only possible exception being the Pentagon) Both invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq stemmed from the effect of the 9/11 attack upon our country.

Now that we have invaded and destroyed the corrupt governments of both countries we are attempting to help the people of these nations put in place properly elected and representative governments. This is the big picture worldview. It's a bold and momentous stroke to bring democracy, tolerance, and enlightenment to the Arab world. If successful, it means nothing less than a sea-change in Iraq and Afghanistan that would act as a beacon and example to the rest of the Arab world. It's success would mean the stability, success, and liberal freedoms that you enjoy would also be enjoyed by millions of newly free Arab people...and their children yet unborn. By focusing on the bogus numbers of "innocent civilians" provided by enemies of the US, you are doing your best to subvert this process while doing your best to appear "compassionate". Real liberal compassion for Iraqi people (women and children especially) would entail a support for the democratization of Iraq.

Some skeptic. You focus on demonstrably bogus casualty numbers, the intended effect of us all doing so would be to end the fighting...not on the part of those targeting civilians, but only on the part of those fighting the terrorists. Thereby dooming the process of freeing the people of fundamentalist Islamic tyranny, and increasing the frequency of terrorism worldwide.

You are not a skeptic Dave,...just a shortsighted tool being used by anti-western terrorists. If you really feel this way you should go to Iraq and give yourself to Al Zarqawi as a human shield.

-z

 

[rikzilla]

Oh, while we're at it? You're a moron on a second count. If you'd bothered to do any research, you'd realise that the boys were pushed into the water by US soldiers, who were subsequently charged with manslaughter. I believe if you search this forum for one of my 'hearts and minds' threads, you'll see I mentioned it at the time it happened.

ETA: Since you obviously don't know how to do a search...

Okay, fair enough. Now tell us, when will the "Iraqi Freedom Fighters" be trying Al Zarqawi for his many murders??

You are a moon-bat of the highest order Manifesto.

-z

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

Okay, fair enough. Now tell us, when will the "Iraqi Freedom Fighters" be trying Al Zarqawi for his many murders??

You are a moon-bat of the highest order Manifesto.

-z

If you think the actions of the people you're fighting justify what the US military are doing then you must be fuc...

Oh, wait... You are.

Nevermind.

 

[IllegalArgument]

Before I get labeled as being "anti-American". I would like to say that I understand what scum these insurgents are, undemocratic, oppressive, fascist scum.

My worry is that we are fighting the wrong kind of war, that we might make more enemies than destory. The USA will always beat the insurgents in a stand up fight, we have a first rate military, at least below the Colonel level, it's well lead, trained and equiped.

The problem is they aren't going to give us a lot of stand up fights, much like the Viet Cong.

It's the leadership that worries me, not the troops.

I'm quite happy that very few soliders died in the assault, I just hope the insurgents don't get a propaganda victory out of this.

Anyone else here about the Sarin gas they found? Interestingly NPR reported that the vials were clearly labeled in English. I hope that will make it easy to track to the source.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Re: Hail, hail, the gang's all here...

If you think the actions of the people you're fighting justify what the US military are doing then you must be fuc...

Yes. As a matter of fact the actions of the people Americans are fighting do justify what the US military are doing.

Iraqi hostages found in Falluja

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Fallujah 'Hostage Slaughterhouses' Found

Iraqi PM's Cousin Kidnapped, Islamists Threaten

Iraq rebels attack Baquba police

Islamist group orders militants to attack Iraqi targets

Militants Bomb Orthodox Church in Baghdad

Iraq Declares Martial Law, 23 Police Killed