Exarchia - It has begun

In the US, it goes more often like so:

MOVE, in the ironically named Philadelphia, PA: You can't tell us what to do!
Police: burns entire block to ground
USA: ...wait, what happened?

Also, anyone looking so much as sideways at a cop:
Police: BANG BANG BANG BANG
USA: you guys hear something?
 
Also, anyone looking so much as sideways at a cop:
Police: BANG BANG BANG BANG
USA: you guys hear something?

That happened once in Exarchia on 6 December 2008, where the cops executed 15 year old Alexandros Grigoropoulos. Led to generalized insurrection across Greece ("over 300 banks and luxury shops had burned and parliament had been besieged" from some post above) as well as solidarity riots in 70 cities all over the world.

Every year since a memorial service has been held on 6 december. One part, during the day, a demonstration at the place he was killed. The other part, during the night, consisting of "raining fire" on the MAT forces stationed at the perimeter of the district (where they used to be before the recent occupation) to remind them of what happens if they do that again. They haven't shot anyone since.

Just a couple weeks ago the cop who killed Alexis was released, even though he was sentenced to life, leading to more tensions:
 
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That happened once in Exarchia on 6 December 2008, where the cops executed 15 year old Alexandros Grigoropoulos. Led to generalized insurrection across Greece ("over 300 banks and luxury shops had burned and parliament had been besieged" from some post above) as well as solidarity riots in 70 cities all over the world.

Every year since a memorial service has been held on 6 december. One part, during the day, a demonstration at the place he was killed. The other part, during the night, consisting of "raining fire" on the MAT forces stationed at the perimeter of the district (where they used to be before the recent occupation) to remind them of what happens if they do that again. They haven't shot anyone since.

Just a couple weeks ago the cop who killed Alexis was released, even though he was sentenced to life, leading to more tensions:



And in the States, police kling people doesn't even warrant headlines. Seems we like it. Or are not outraged beyond a Facebook like, anyway
 
And in the States, police kling people doesn't even warrant headlines. Seems we like it. Or are not outraged beyond a Facebook like, anyway

It only doesn't warrant headlines because it happens so often, which begs the question, why do you let it happen so often? I think the answer is lack of class consciousness.
 
It only doesn't warrant headlines because it happens so often, which begs the question, why do you let it happen so often? I think the answer is lack of class consciousness.

That, or there is some truth to the maxim that people don't mind being slaves if they are fat and entertained.
 
That, or there is some truth to the maxim that people don't mind being slaves if they are fat and entertained.

There certainly is some truth to that, but poverty and inequality increases even in the US, and Aristotle also had a point:
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As did Diogenes when he told the emperor to get out of his damn sunlight already (told MAT forces to get out of their damn neighbourhood already, in the modern version).
 
True. The poor in America can be fat and entertained, though, but impoverished in the more substantial ways. Even our poor are cheering their football teams and have a McDonald's around the corner.

I think the difference here is that we are...used to...a boot calling the shots. Its so ingrained in the culture that it's like the sun rising in the east. I mean, we have concentration camps now, with people tut tutting, but no open revolt at the implications.

Eta: I always thought a lack of a sense of community (and maybe more importantly, commonality) was the base problem with our tolerance of what happens to 'others'
 
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True. The poor in America can be fat and entertained, though, but impoverished in the more substantial ways. Even our poor are cheering their football teams and have a McDonald's around the corner.

Nothing wrong with cheering for football teams. Seems though that in the US the football teams are all right-wing (liberal-nationalist to far-right nationalist) given their use of symbols during the events (national flag, national anthem, etc). You don't really see left-wing teams much, like this:


(the above is from Liège in Belgium, which incidentally has a self-managed social center that was going to be evicted last Tuesday, but a mobilization of over a hundred people who showed up in front of the squat made the cops decide it would be too much of a bother and they went away again. Resistance works :))

I think the difference here is that we are...used to...a boot calling the shots. Its so ingrained in the culture that it's like the sun rising in the east. I mean, we have concentration camps now, with people tut tutting, but no open revolt at the implications.

That's the thing about this whole Exarchia thing as well, it's basically just the government capturing migrants to throw them into concentration camps for no real reason whatsoever.

Eta: I always thought a lack of a sense of community (and maybe more importantly, commonality) was the base problem with our tolerance of what happens to 'others'

I think the problem is too much of a sense of community, which includes the ruling class, as opposed to a sense of class consciousness. That commonality is not found in community but in shared class interest.
 
A demonstration of 4000-7000 people against the State repression took place near parliament in Athens. (from the facebook page of K*Vox). The demonstration ended in Exarchia where some minor clashes took place with the MAT occupation forces. Yesterday the cops have removed all the garbage containers from Exarchia, which are usually the material barricades are made out of. Presumably to attempt to sabotage the solidarity from the neighbourhood's residents since now the only real barricade material left is the cars, and people don't really like it if you use their car for a barricade.
 
While we're discussing political philosophy for a moment anyway:

they have no actual right to be in anyway

What you're missing is that property rights are a spook.
Max Stirner said:
Whoever knows how to take, to defend, the thing, to him belongs property.

(I'll bet you a crate of beer that you'll find the above Stirner quote written on the walls of Exarchia as well. It is a literate neighbourhood after all, no wonder the liberals and the fash want its writings removed)

696795d7d244ea0565.jpg
 
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A demonstration of 4000-7000 people against the State repression took place near parliament in Athens.

In Nantes, France as well at the same time. Video
Nantes Révoltée said:
Saturday 14 September in Nantes, in a few numbers:

- 30° in the shade
- 2 military tanks
- 1 stolen lobster
- 11 preventive arrest
- 4000 protesters
- about 1000 law forces
- dozens of umbrellas
- two forced gendarmes blocks
- the matraqueurs in free wheel
- at least 33 arrest
- hundreds of grenades fired
- 1 Ultra-violent and liar prefect, who closed the only street he claimed to allow

ETA: Here's the story of the stolen lobster (yes that was not a mistranslation) :D
Nantes Révoltée said:
Mind-blowing: Police trap to capture a giant lobster!

This is a barely credible event that took place today in nantes. A funny, sad, and scary information. But real. A huge trap organized by the police to steal a paper lobster.

{...}
 
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While we're discussing political philosophy for a moment anyway:



What you're missing is that property rights are a spook.


(I'll bet you a crate of beer that you'll find the above Stirner quote written on the walls of Exarchia as well. It is a literate neighbourhood after all, no wonder the liberals and the fash want its writings removed)

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/696795d7d244ea0565.jpg[/qimg]

The problem is, that is the rationale of the thief or the rapist. If that philosophy is accepted (that we can just declare our own beliefs upon others), then there is no logical objection to the State dropping the hammer. That's their belief, and anyone's belief is valid, right?

Also, I'd disagree with Max on property. When you squat property, you are also stealing the fruits of a life's work. In essence, stealing his life at the threat of violence. Someone else shares that philosophy.
 
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I once had a housemate idiot claim "all property is theft" at me when I objected to his grabbing my last tin of tomatoes from the kitchen cupboard.

Next morning I drove his car round the corner and told him I'd sold it and donated the money to Oxfam. Man ... the swearing singed even my ears.
 
The problem is, that is the rationale of the thief or the rapist.

True, that is also the rationale of the bourgeoisie and its State.

But then of course, it is also the rationale behind some of the squats being free clinics (nobody goes without free healthcare in Exarchia, not even refugees who are denied access to healthcare by the State) and some of them being community kitchens (nobody goes hungry in Exarchia, not even refugees), etc. If I were in Exarchia it would be in my interest to get free healthcare if needed, and it's also in the interest of the other people there, so we come together and make it happen.

If that philosophy is accepted (that we can just declare our own beliefs upon others), then there is no logical objection to the State dropping the hammer.

Obviously, the objection isn't logical but physical. There is no logical way to go from an ought to an is, objections are not, in the final analysis, logical. This holds true just as much for the bourgeoisie and its State btw, it has no logical objection to the working and underclass dropping the hammer, all it has is an application of its might (MAT in particular in this case).

Just to be clear, those objections don't necessarily need to take the form of throwing Molotov cocktails on State forces, but also things like labour strikes and stuff like that. The point is that it's not a battle of ideas but one of political might.

That's their belief, and anyone's belief is valid, right?

No idea where you got that conclusion from, this isn't about beliefs being valid or not. Fundamentally the struggle isn't fought in the so-called marketplace of ideas (which, as the name already suggests, is structured so as to reinforce ideas which are profitable to capital) but on the streets and in the workplaces. There may be many people in Greece watching their TV's and believing all that government BS about the illegals bringing drugs and stuff, but they're mostly not going to come out in the streets to actually contest the point.

How idiotic it would be to choose to fight in disadvantageous terrain.

Also, I'd disagree with Max on property. When you squat property, you are also stealing the fruits of a life's work. In essence, stealing his life at the threat of violence. Someone else shares that philosophy.

The bourgeoisie doesn't work, by definition. Your vulgar interpretation is also slightly ridiculous, as if people are going to squat granma's little apartment. Consider, on the other hand, the rich businessman who has bought 100 apartments in Exarchia to turn them into luxury AirBnb's and is now petitioning the government to "clean up" Exarchia so his investment pays off well (buy low, get the government to help increase the pricing, rent out high...profit!). Suppose 98 of them get squatted and turned into social centers, refugee accommodations, etc. That still leaves everyone with at least two apartments in the neighbourhood.

Now suppose that granma's apartment isn't just left alone, but that granma, when she has a health problem, can visit the local free clinic. When her pension has been slashed or unpaid and she's having financial problems she can eat at the local community kitchen. Even suppose that, when granma needs surgery, some corrupt doctor demands a bribe she can't pay with her small pension, and somehow a bunch of people show up at the doctor's office to tell him what's up.

At this point it should be noted that the particular philosophy you're disagreeing with does not include normative claims, you can be as altruistic as you want.[*] The point is that you're being altruistic because you want to, not because you're serving some higher ideal of your own creation, as if you're enslaved to an idea that only exists in your head anyway ("I'm being altruistic because I'm serving God's will", "I'm being altruistic because I'm serving a moral code", etc).

But even if we accept your vulgar interpretation, then your reasoning is still ridiculous. Which do you think will be the better option:

- Squatting granma's apartment and getting everyone against you and nobody helps you out when you get evicted and thrown in camps.

- Squatting the rich businessman's apartments.

- Squatting the rich businessman's apartments as well as everything in the paragraphs above about granma getting free healthcare etc. Note that this taking care of granma, even in purely amoral power terms, also means yet another door in the neighbourhood that opens for insurgents and closes again for the cops (how do you think those groups of neighbourhood residents who've attacked MAT positions simply "disappear" again into the streets without getting caught? Remember that physics tells us that there is no such thing as actual disappearance.)

Come to think of it, maybe that's another reason that the liberals and fash want the writings removed, since the trivially correct solution to the underlying social problems tends to quickly get published in Exarchia. Or at least a better solution than the State's "If we throw random migrants into concentration camps then that will solve everything, because reasons":

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[*] See for example here:
John Beverley Robinson said:
In brief, egoism in its modern interpretation, is the antithesis, not of altruism, but of idealism. The ordinary person — the idealist — subordinates their interests to the interests of their ideals, and usually suffers for it. The egoist is fooled by no ideals: she/he discards them or uses them, as may suit his own interest. If he/she likes to be altruistic, they will sacrifice themselves for others; but only because they like to do so; they demand no gratitude nor glory in return
 
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I once had a housemate idiot claim "all property is theft" at me when I objected to his grabbing my last tin of tomatoes from the kitchen cupboard.

Next morning I drove his car round the corner and told him I'd sold it and donated the money to Oxfam. Man ... the swearing singed even my ears.

Wait, he didn't just nod and then went ahead to sell your furniture and buy a new car with it? Sounds like you've had some weird housemates.
 
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Him and what army?

And why the rigamarole with the furniture? Why not just take the car?

He was told that the car was sold off. This implies that no army would be needed to sell each other's things off, as GlennB had sold his car off. It is hence to be expected to be within his power to sell GlennB's furniture off (or other valuables, not necessarily furniture) until he regained sufficient funds to buy a new car. The point is, why did he choose to just make a fuss about it rather than do something about it? Protest doesn't work, resistance does. I agree that GlennB's housemate was an idiot, no idea why GlennB found it necessary to bring it up.
 
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I once had a housemate idiot claim "all property is theft" at me when I objected to his grabbing my last tin of tomatoes from the kitchen cupboard.

Next morning I drove his car round the corner and told him I'd sold it and donated the money to Oxfam. Man ... the swearing singed even my ears.

So what's this anecdote supposed to prove?
 
So what's this anecdote supposed to prove?

That the ownership of personal property is a reasonable concept. That appropriating the property of others by (for example) squatting in their houses is not reasonable. In fact the reasonable course of action, in such a case, is to vacate when asked.
 
That the ownership of personal property is a reasonable concept. That appropriating the property of others by (for example) squatting in their houses is not reasonable. In fact the reasonable course of action, in such a case, is to vacate when asked.

And yet still, in the end, your housemate got your tin of tomatoes but you didn't get his car. Your appeals to so-called "reasonableness" make one wonder who, in the final analysis, was the most idiotic of the two in your anecdote. ETA: and it's patently obvious that your use of the term "reasonable" doesn't denote rational or logical thought but merely whatever you choose to believe.
 
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