Exarchia - It has begun

GlennB said:
In Athens? Not really.

I spent one night in Exarcheia about 9 years ago. Needing to be in the city early for a hospital appointment I booked a random cheap hotel on the internet. Bad move. As I arrived at the hotel some dudes asked "Hey, what you want mister? Girl, boy, drugs?" That was during daytime. I was aiming to go out for a meal at night but just wrote off that idea.

Nice neighbourhood? Stop talking out of your arse, eh? There are neighbourhoods in Athens you might not enjoy visiting that are better than Exarcheia .
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Sounds like San Francisco and pretty much every major city on the US west coast. Drugs on the streets, squatters/homeless everywhere, city doing nothing about it.
 
GlennB said:
In Athens? Not really.

I spent one night in Exarcheia about 9 years ago. Needing to be in the city early for a hospital appointment I booked a random cheap hotel on the internet. Bad move. As I arrived at the hotel some dudes asked "Hey, what you want mister? Girl, boy, drugs?" That was during daytime. I was aiming to go out for a meal at night but just wrote off that idea.

Nice neighbourhood? Stop talking out of your arse, eh? There are neighbourhoods in Athens you might not enjoy visiting that are better than Exarcheia .
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Well out of 7 people I know who live in Exarchia 7 like the neighbourhood. The only reason I didn't participate in the latest visit to Exarchia from Belgium a few months ago is because I had other things to do, but I've heard that the people who did visit were very positive about it.

This, of course, is somewhat besides the point. Even the police admits that they found no drugs in any of the squats, and they seem to be changing their story from "they're bringing drugs" to "we are taking out the garbage." Sure, they still have a lot of garbage left to go, by my count there's at least still 700 refugees in various other squats, but if they couldn't even find a single joint in the first 4 squats then it's about time to stop pretending that this has anything to do with drugs or something.
 
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^ Goodness, perhaps it's also to do with several hundred people illegally occupying someone else's property, eh?
 
GlennB said:
^ Goodness, perhaps it's also to do with several hundred people illegally occupying someone else's property, eh?
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Doesn't look like it. Police and government statements have gone from "they're bringing drugs" to just "we are taking out the garbage" - nothing about anyone complaining about their property being "illegally occupied." Besides, why would your explanation require the government to abolish the university sanctuary law?

An extreme-right government takes power in Greece, immediately abolishes important civil freedoms such as the university sanctuary law, begins a whole propaganda campaign about refugees bringing drugs and crime while promising to "clean up" the country. Then goes ahead with "taking out the garbage" but it's all got nothing to do except with someone illegally occupying someone else's property, even though nobody heard of those purported property owners or them having made any sort of complaints about occupation or anything...LOL!
 
caveman1917 said:
Doesn't look like it. Police and government statements have gone from "they're bringing drugs" to just "we are taking out the garbage" - nothing about anyone complaining about their property being "illegally occupied." Besides, why would your explanation require the government to abolish the university sanctuary law?

An extreme-right government takes power in Greece, immediately abolishes important civil freedoms such as the university sanctuary law, begins a whole propaganda campaign about refugees bringing drugs and crime while promising to "clean up" the country. Then goes ahead with "taking out the garbage" but it's all got nothing to do except with someone illegally occupying someone else's property, even though nobody heard of those purported property owners or them having made any sort of complaints about occupation or anything...LOL!
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Question.

Is the link that GlennB gave in post 7 not accurate?
Or are the photos in there not from that neighbourhood?

I've just taken a 'stroll' through the area with Streetview and no way you would ever see me there. Especially at night!
 
erwinl said:
Question.

Is the link that GlennB gave in post 7 not accurate?
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Definitely not accurate in the more tendentious claims about children being locked up inside because they can't play outside. It may be accurate in the claims that someone once sold drugs near a school. It's also unverifiable, an anonymous letter by purported residents making a bunch of claims, at least some of which are obviously false (children play outside all the time in Exarchia). I mean, of course there's going to be at least some drug dealing, that's true everywhere. It should also be noted that there was a demonstration of at least 1000 residents last evening against the government's actions, but no demonstration or anything by residents in support of the government's actions, so there's that I guess...

Or are the photos in there not from that neighbourhood?
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I'm sure they are.

I've just taken a 'stroll' through the area with Streetview and no way you would ever see me there. Especially at night!
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Your loss. Now, some questions for you:

1. Even assuming that this whole story about drugs and crime is an accurate description, what does taking a bunch of refugees out of their homes help with that?

2. The government went in to take a bunch of refugees, finding no drugs, leaving any actual drug dealers alone. The local anarchists have on several occasions taken on the Albanian mafia who were dealing drugs in the central square, leaving the refugees alone. Which of these two groups is actually doing something about drug dealing in the neighbourhood and which is merely using drug dealing as an excuse for different purposes?
 
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caveman1917 said:
Definitely not accurate in the more tendentious claims about children being locked up inside because they can't play outside. It may be accurate in the claims that someone once sold drugs near a school. It's also unverifiable, an anonymous letter by purported residents making a bunch of claims, at least some of which are obviously false (children play outside all the time in Exarchia). I mean, of course there's going to be at least some drug dealing, that's true everywhere. It should also be noted that there was a demonstration of at least 1000 residents last evening against the government's actions, but no demonstration or anything by residents in support of the government's actions, so there's that I guess...



I'm sure they are.



Your loss. Now, some questions for you:

1. Even assuming that this whole story about drugs and crime is an accurate description, what does taking a bunch of refugees out of their homes help with that?
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That's a strange question.
Assuming in this case that the drugs and crime is indeed an accurate description. What is gained by not doing anything about it? That it could have been done before, so that it wouldn't have gone this far is another discussion.

2. The government went in to take a bunch of refugees, finding no drugs, leaving any actual drug dealers alone. The local anarchists have on several occasions taken on the Albanian mafia who were dealing drugs in the central square, leaving the refugees alone. Which of these two groups is actually doing something about drug dealing in the neighbourhood and which is merely using drug dealing as an excuse for different purposes?
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The inaction of a government in taking a stand in preventing the rundown of a neighbourhood via drugs, crime etc, is no excuse for self styled vigilantes to take the law in their own hands. Pressure the government to get of their lazy hands and do something, hold demonstrations and such, so that they do something.

I do note however that you do acknowledge that there is a serious problem in that neighbourhood, because of the 'need' of the anarchists to take on the mafia.

Now. Seeing the images on Street view, I do think the government is partially responsible for the rundown of Exarcheia in letting things go too far and basicly abandoning the neighbourhood. That still doesn't give any rights to anarchists movements (or mafia, or...) to take over.
 
erwinl said:
That's a strange question.
Assuming in this case that the drugs and crime is indeed an accurate description. What is gained by not doing anything about it? That it could have been done before, so that it wouldn't have gone this far is another discussion.

The inaction of a government in taking a stand in preventing the rundown of a neighbourhood via drugs, crime etc, is no excuse for self styled vigilantes to take the law in their own hands. Pressure the government to get of their lazy hands and do something, hold demonstrations and such, so that they do something.

I do note however that you do acknowledge that there is a serious problem in that neighbourhood, because of the 'need' of the anarchists to take on the mafia.

Now. Seeing the images on Street view, I do think the government is partially responsible for the rundown of Exarcheia in letting things go too far and basicly abandoning the neighbourhood. That still doesn't give any rights to anarchists movements (or mafia, or...) to take over.
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I'm sorry but I'm not interested in your personal philosophy. You were asked two questions and answered neither, but instead chose to give a sermon about your philosophical beliefs. I don't see any point to continue this conversation.
 
caveman1917 said:
I'm sorry but I'm not interested in your personal philosophy. You were asked two questions and answered neither, but instead chose to give a sermon about your philosophical beliefs. I don't see any point to continue this conversation.
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Suit yourself [shrug]
 
caveman1917 said:
...
An extreme-right government takes power in Greece, immediately abolishes important civil freedoms such as the university sanctuary law ...
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"Extreme right"? Are you kidding? They're centre left, and no more extreme than the UK Tories, possibly less so.

And of the University sanctuary law - how many countries specifically ban police from Uni campuses?

"The law was established in 1982 and largely kept the police off university grounds, although the law has been repealed and reinstated by different governments since then.

It was reinstated most recently in 2017."

the latter after a few years of Syriza government that had left it repealed.
 
GlennB said:
"Extreme right"? Are you kidding? They're centre left, and no more extreme than the UK Tories, possibly less so.
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Yes, they're on the left and even less extreme than the UK Tories, who are obviously known for being on the extreme-left end of the spectrum :rolleyes: ETA: though I suppose whether something's left or right depends on from what point you're looking at it. After all, Mussolini was quite the leftie, as far as Hitler was concerned.

Please answer the following questions:
caveman1917 said:
1. Even assuming that this whole story about drugs and crime is an accurate description, what does taking a bunch of refugees out of their homes help with that?

2. The government went in to take a bunch of refugees, finding no drugs, leaving any actual drug dealers alone. The local anarchists have on several occasions taken on the Albanian mafia who were dealing drugs in the central square, leaving the refugees alone. Which of these two groups is actually doing something about drug dealing in the neighbourhood and which is merely using drug dealing as an excuse for different purposes?
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GlennB said:
Six arrested for drugs in Athens' Exarchia district

Four arrested in ongoing crackdown on drug dealing in Exarchia

Exarchia: Police arrest 21, breaking up drug trafficking ring

Those arrested included 13 Albanians, 4 Greeks, 2 Georgians, a Moldavian, and a Bulgarian, all aged between 19 and 37 years.

etc ...
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A couple of anecdotes, spanning over a year, of some arrests for drugs of some foreigners. What exactly is this supposed to prove? That they indeed "bring drugs" and indiscriminately taking large groups of refugees out of their homes to camps does indeed constitute "combating drugs"?
 
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caveman1917 said:
A couple of anecdotes, spanning over a year, of some arrests for drugs of some foreigners. What exactly is this supposed to prove? That they indeed "bring drugs" and indiscriminately taking large groups of refugees out of their homes to camps does indeed constitute "combating drugs"?
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That if they're combating the drug problem, bust a squat suspected in that respect, and find a bunch of illegal immigrants that they're bound to do something about them? What else? "Oh, sorry to have bothered you, have a nice day" ?

Conditions in Greek refugee camps are bad, but there is a system for claiming asylum at the point of entry. It doesn't involve getting smuggled across the Turkish border and lying low in a squat in a dodgy part of a city.
 
GlennB said:
That if they're combating the drug problem, bust a squat suspected in that respect, and find a bunch of illegal immigrants that they're bound to do something about them? What else? "Oh, sorry to have bothered you, have a nice day" ?
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Which squat was suspected in respect of the so-called drug problem? The squats have a strict no drug policy, which the government is well aware of. And they didn't "find" a bunch of refugees, they knew very well they were there, they were open refugee accommodations.

Conditions in Greek refugee camps are bad
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The worst in the world according to an MSF worker interviewed by the BBC. You thought Trump's camps were bad? Wait till you see the Greek ones...

but there is a system for claiming asylum at the point of entry. It doesn't involve getting smuggled across the Turkish border and lying low in a squat in a dodgy part of a city.
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Who got smuggled across the Turkish border? Lying low? Again, these were open refugee accommodations, completely in public and governmental view.
 
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caveman1917 said:
Which squat was suspected in respect of the so-called drug problem? The squats have a strict no drug policy, which the government is well aware of. And they didn't "find" a bunch of refugees, they knew very well they were there, they were open refugee accommodations.

The worst in the world according to an MSF worker interviewed by the BBC. You thought Trump's camps were bad? Wait till you see the Greek ones...

Who got smuggled across the Turkish border? Lying low? Again, these were open refugee accommodations, completely in public and governmental view.
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They're illegal squats, not official refugee centres.
 
GlennB said:
They're illegal squats, not official refugee centres.
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Nobody ever claimed they were official refugee centers. Good thing that they're not official refugee centers either, one can easily compare the living conditions between government refugee centers and self-organized refugee centers from interviews by the Guardian and the BCC as linked above:
“I am so happy here, I feel safe,” explains Sana*, a squat resident from Afghanistan. “Here we work together and have a good life.”
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"We are always ready to escape, 24 hours a day we have our children ready," says Sara Khan, originally from Afghanistan.

"The violence means our little ones don't get to sleep."

Sara explains that her family spend all day queuing for food at the camp and all night ready to run - in fear of the fights that break out constantly.
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Either way, the government describes their operations as "an electric vacuum cleaner hoovering dirt from Exarchia" - should there still be any confusion about motives (is it drugs? is it illegal squatting? ..?)
 
Some information in French. Of particular note here is the symbols of various neo-nazi groups on the uniforms of some of the cops involved, combined with the fact that the new prime minister first had to do a special hiring session for 1500 cops for the operation in the previous month (the new government came into power on 7 July).
 
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