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Evolution vs. Creation (again)

Hmm, wonder if you have to prove any points of the findings in nature. That would be quite in depth.

What are the repercussions of sending the email? Hopefully just learning on the professor's end, but the professor may just get defensive instead.

Any chances he can fired if he has a temper tantrum :)

What educational institution is that? To be trying to poo poo evolution like that?
 
Well I don´t know what the repercussion will be.
Maybe he just didn´t know better than writing that and is pleased that one of his students (1) knows better and (2) cares enough to correct him.
Maybe he really is a creationist, and will either write me off as "just another narrow-minded skeptic" (I couldn´t care less) or put me on his "black list" (which I would mind).
Or maybe this will spark a longer exchange. On one hand, it can´t hurt to show that I´m not just passively consuming what I am told; it´s difficult enough to stick out of a mass of 600 students this year, an in a positive way, too. On the other, I´m not that eager to get on a professor´s bad side within three weeks of starting to study.

The professor is a very smart guy. Studied philosophy, mathematics and economy - the latter in Cambridge. Has been teaching in Ed knows how many universities all over the world, in several languages. Has been - I heard it rumored - nominated for the Nobel Prize at one time. He´s considered brilliant, but an outsider, perhaps because of his teaching style. He focuses on the historical side of microeconomics instead of on the maths. I´m not sure if the other professors teach scientific theory (or what passes for it) in the Micro lecture.
 
Two coexisting paradigms:
Evolution theory and creation history

Both are belief systems. Nobody was there, there are no witnesses; everything beyond an age of 3000 is pure speculation.
I would very much hope no one would take a claim like that seriously. That kind of reasoning is a form of very irresponsible intellectual anarchy.

The claim might have some amount of credence if there existed no traces from the past older than 3000 years.


Nothing is achieved when trying to call Evolution and Creationism "belief systems" or say they require some amount of faith to believe.

There are 2 types of faith:

1. Blind Faith
2. And Evidenced Faith

The only thing Blind Faith requires is blind belief. Blind Faith can never be used to assert positive belief or disbelief, it is perfectly justifyable for "personal belief". It doesnt mean anything in terms of determining what is "true" or "untrue".

Evidenced Faith requires evidence. A good logical analysis of your observations or objective testable data makes for perfectly fine evidence.

However, when you assert a positive claim that requires evidence, but the Evidenced Faith is contradicted by currently existing evidence, you must reject the faith. Refusing to do so, and that Evidenced Faith becomes labeled with a term called "Willful Ignorance".

I often find using the "Blind Faith vs. Evidenced Faith" analogy is good for defeating arguments that sound like "Evolution requires just as much faith as Creationism". And that is absolutely correct, however readers of those kinds of arguments implicitly assume the faith being referred to is blind faith, but that is not the case. Evolution requires Evidenced Faith (or science), and I would hold Creationism to the same standards of Evidenced Faith. No evidence for Creationism, then Creationism must be abandoned.

200-year-old vulcanic rock has been dated as being 2 billion years old. The long periods of time (which evolution needs, or the construction of hypotheses collapses?) are purely speculative.
See TalkOrigins. The "dating is inaccurate" claims are just silly.

That 200-year-old rock is likely contaminated. Geochronologists are very well aware of the dangers of contamination, and they take many precautions against using such samples (i.e. dont use weathered rocks is a given).

The evolutionist Arthur Keith claims:
Evolution cannot be proven. We believe in in because the alternative would be an act of creaion by god, and that is unthinkable.
As noted above, that quote is just silly.

The computer scientist Werner Gitt says - paraphrased -:
Wherever we find Codes, Structure and Planning, we know from experience there there must be intelligence at work...there is no information by chance.
If this is another misquote, it doesnt matter at the moment. Most Creationists make very similar claims to this.

Not only is "structure and planning" a purely subjective notion, the word "information" vaguely defined, I would think Natural Selection (The Blind Watchmaker) predicts development over time. The problem arises when Creationists falsely assume evolution's blind design is pre-planned.

Here is an example I think works perfectly for refuting "there is structure and order, must be intelligent design" arguments:

A stream rushes down a dry river bed. As the stream runs by, it shifts the position of the rocks on the bed. The rocks of larger size are found in water where the steam moves the fastest, and an even grade of rocks (from largest to smallest) forms as the velocity of the water slows more and more. The completely meaningless, reasonless, rhymeless, unintelligent movement of water has sorted a bed of rocks with careful precision.

(Anecdote: I heard a Creationist respond to that with "how do we define 'sorted', thats subjective", and the irony from the statement put a bounce in my step for the rest of the day.)

The oldest human remains, the Cro-Magnon, are identical with modern-day humans. Therefore all "Neandertal developments" are lapsed.
Bwahahahahaaa!! :D

That is silliness if I've ever heard it.

Cro-Magnon man is a modern human. Its called Cro-Magnon Man because it was found in a cave in Cro-Magnon, France. The word "Cro-Magnon" is not species name.

Cro-Magnon Man is about 35 - 15 thousand years old.

According to Guinness World Records, the oldest modern human remains are about 160,000 years old.

ABCNews reports the oldest hominid remains found are about 6.7 million years old.

Furthermore, its unlikely Neaderthals are ancestors of humans at all.

More human evolution research if needed.

The current state of research: all remains found are either human or ape. (..) After countless fossil findings there is no link [betiween human and ape].
Homo habilus is our most recent ancestor.

The tutor's above statement is a perfect demonstration that she has never made an attempt at outside reading. Although there a few missing pieces, the evolution of humans is largely complete.

Although Wikipedia information should be taken with a grain of salt, this human evolution article is fairly accurate (it makes a B+ effort grade for providing a good introduction to human evolution, by far not a relevant source to provide a great deal of the known information on evolution). Go to the library, pick up any decent book titled "Human Evolution", flip to a page with nice tree chart, and ask the tutor to read a book sometime.
 
The Werner Gitt quote is just plain wrong, employs circular logic.

Also the guy is clearly biased and not an authority on anything but computer science, and on this wrong with that comment too.
 
Thanks, Yahweh.

FYI, it was homo habilis - "the skilled man".
We are homo sapiens - "the wise man".
 
Can someone explain how evolution can be scientifically valid in the face of the science of genetics? Do genes take in information about a species not needing an appendage or needing a different one and little by little producing offspring with new features? This might be more readily discussed using the 'NOT needed an appendage or feature', so we can skip the arguement of survival of the fittest for new features that were actually found to be useful after a single mishap in an offspring (which then in turn would then have to be a dominant gene mutation rather than a recessive). Eh...sorry for the run on sentence.

Jeepers
 
Jeepers said:
Do genes take in information about a species not needing an appendage or needing a different one and little by little producing offspring with new features?
Random mutations ensure that offspring are produced with slight differences to their parents. This happens entirely regardless of need. Then, since there is only a finite supply of resources, those offspring whose mutations are beneficial outcompete their disadvantaged brethren, increasing their chances of survival. Increased chance of survival means increased chance of reproduction, and so the successful mutations propogate.

To sum it up as simply as I can: random mutations provide variation, natural selection picks out the successful varieties. Repeat for 4 billion years...
 
Jeepers said:
Can someone explain how evolution can be scientifically valid in the face of the science of genetics? Do genes take in information about a species not needing an appendage or needing a different one and little by little producing offspring with new features? This might be more readily discussed using the 'NOT needed an appendage or feature', so we can skip the arguement of survival of the fittest for new features that were actually found to be useful after a single mishap in an offspring (which then in turn would then have to be a dominant gene mutation rather than a recessive). Eh...sorry for the run on sentence.

Jeepers


Martin sums it up well, I just don't know if it will make sense if you don't understand genetics that well.

With genes you are born with is all the information to build you. This combination was arrived at through a bazillion years of evolution, and does not contain dna that will be selected for making you with OR without an arm. If you are born without an arm because of a genetic mutation, and that mutation was the kind that can be passed on in your making of sperm or egg dna, then it will be passed on if you successfully reproduce. That means there may have been a benefit to having only one arm.

That usually is not the case though. If you were born thousands of years ago like that, you probably wouldn't have gotten a mate unless you had some other overwhelmingly beneficial attribute to make up for it (very smart or whatever). So you do not pass on the gene.

In the cases where mutations do get passed on, it takes a lot of mutations selected for to get to the point where you are now a new species. That is why it takes so long to "evolve" It also matters when the mutation happens and where. It may not be beneficial in one place, but may be in another. Thus you have all these different things going on and you end up with a bunch of organisms with different attributes. Just as with selective breeding, you start seeing groups with strong similar attributes.


You at one time can see there were a bunch of large reptiles on the planet. Well, the planet changed, and not all the reptiles had attributes soon enough to allow them to survive the kind of changes that happened. Smaller reptiles did survive, and so did mammals who were just emerging on the scene. Being big was no longer a plus in order to beat out the competion for food and shelter.

These extreme changes are what drives evolution. If life could not cope with the changes via evolution, then life would cease to exist. If there were no changes at all, then there wouldn't be much evolution going on, just the mutation driven evolution.

There is mutation driven evolution (mandatory) and the trait driven evolution where certain traits at a certain time and place will cause big evolutionary jumps when there is a change in environment. Microevolution leading to macroevolution. Small changes leading to a big overall change from one point in time to another.

It is all very complicated, and I do hope you have more questions after reading all the posts here.
 
Another way of looking at it is that mutation "tops up" the normal variation in a population.

BTW, Jeepers the answer to this question is a resounding "No".
Do genes take in information about a species not needing an appendage or needing a different one and little by little producing offspring with new features?
There is no known mechanism for genes taking in information - the relationship between a gene and an organism is one-way: - Genes produce organisms. The view that acquired characteristics can be inherited is normally associated with Lamark, a contemporary of Darwin. Lamarkism was followed by the Soviet biologist Lysenko who held sway in the Stalin era. The consequences for Soviet biology and agriculture were disastrous.
 
Martin said:
Random mutations ensure that offspring are produced with slight differences to their parents. This happens entirely regardless of need.

I knew that...but therein lies my question (btw, thanks Eos for your response too.)
I guess I am looking at it from a dominant and recessive type gene mutation viewpoint. I can easily see how if a dominant gene mutates and makes a particular critter fitter to survive, that they would automatically pass it on to their offspring.
I am just trying to figure out the probability of say one critter getting a recessive gene mutation and then hooking up with another critter (of the same species i assume) with the exact same mutation and then producing little critters with double recessive. . . then I guess the little buggers could interbreed and propagate the trait. It's the first unlikely chance encounter I am wondering about. Unless I missed something in your explanations.

Jeepers
 
Dragon said:
Another way of looking at it is that mutation "tops up" the normal variation in a population.

BTW, Jeepers the answer to this question is a resounding "No".

There is no known mechanism for genes taking in information - the relationship between a gene and an organism is one-way: - Genes produce organisms. The view that acquired characteristics can be inherited is normally associated with Lamark, a contemporary of Darwin. Lamarkism was followed by the Soviet biologist Lysenko who held sway in the Stalin era. The consequences for Soviet biology and agriculture were disastrous.
Hey, you posted while I was replying to Eos and Martin, so I am not ignoring you. I guess that question of mine about genes taking in information wasmild sarcasm...because I didn't think so, but I've heard some who believe in evolution describe it like that. Sort of an fable type of thing I guess. (like how the elephant got its long trunk). Maybe they don't know how to explain it so they take the fairy tale approach. But my other ? on dominant and recessive genes is valid I think.

Jeepers
 
If a mutation is recessive and remains unexpressed in a particular individual, it is neutral with regards to fitness and will, in general, not be selected against. The individual may pass the mutation on to 50% of its offspring where it may be expressed or not, depending on whether the correspond gene from the other parent is dominant or not. Those descendants would continue to pass the trait on. As long as that subset of individuals is not differentially selected against, there's no reason to believe the trait would die out.

Even if you require the gene meet an exact duplicate of itself in order to be expressed, this could happen. A recessive mutation trait could spread unexpressed in some fraction of the original mutant's descendants for a few generations. If two descendants of the original organism mate, their offspring might finally express the trait (25% of the time if both have the recessive trait). Selection would then be able to act on that individual: the trait would increase or decrease the fitness of that individual relative to others in the same environment, and therefore increase or decrease its chances of successfully breeding.
 
Jeepers said:
I am just trying to figure out the probability of say one critter getting a recessive gene mutation and then hooking up with another critter (of the same species i assume) with the exact same mutation and then producing little critters with double recessive. . . then I guess the little buggers could interbreed and propagate the trait. It's the first unlikely chance encounter I am wondering about. Unless I missed something in your explanations.

Jeepers

Assuming that the recesive version doesn't give any disadvantages then what will happen is that at least initialy the gene will get spred or not spred by random chance. However once it has reached even a relitly low level double recesives will start to appear and if this recesive mutation gives an advantge these double rescives will start to dominate the population.
 
Jeepers said:

but I've heard some who believe in evolution describe it like that.

Believe in evolution?
 
Holy Krap! I'm trying to get off my computer and I keep getting message pop-ups that there's been another new reply on any one of a number of topics. It's Sunday! Don't you people have to to church or anything? (Just playing with ya!). :D

Jeepers
 
Jeepers said:


I knew that...but therein lies my question (btw, thanks Eos for your response too.)
I guess I am looking at it from a dominant and recessive type gene mutation viewpoint. I can easily see how if a dominant gene mutates and makes a particular critter fitter to survive, that they would automatically pass it on to their offspring.
I am just trying to figure out the probability of say one critter getting a recessive gene mutation and then hooking up with another critter (of the same species i assume) with the exact same mutation and then producing little critters with double recessive. . . then I guess the little buggers could interbreed and propagate the trait. It's the first unlikely chance encounter I am wondering about. Unless I missed something in your explanations.

Jeepers


You're welcome :)

Hmmm. This is getting into stats, where I am weak. I have done those charts in genetics classes eons ago. There we getting homozygous, heterozygous, P generation, F1 and F2 generations, phenotype and genotype.
This is where my memory gets fuzzy.

Basically though, we do see genes expressed in males that are abnormal because they don't have the second x chromosome to make up for any problems in the other x chromosome. Fragile X syndrome is more common in males because of this. Haemophilia (sp?) is the same sort of example. The women become carriers because they don't express the problem. This allows the mutation to be moved on-the women are able to make it to adulthood and pass it on.

Now if it were a beneficial trait, the males would survive to pass it on as well, and the gene would become more prevalent in the gene pools. Then you would see women expressing them as well.

I hope that helps.
 
Terms to look up

Genotype, phenotype

Dominant, recessive, incomplete dominance, dihybrid cross

Epistasis, Polygenic, Pleiotropy, mulltiple alleles, intermediate inheritance

Consanguinity-why you don't marry relatives.

White cross eyed tigers are homozygous for a recessive allele that causes both albino coloration and the eye problem.
 
geni said:


Believe in evolution?

Follow evolution? Teach evolution? (except if someone teaches it...they arent' giving that story, except maybe in elementary school). I bailed out of my Biology Major in college just before Zoology and Evolution classes. I don't know how else to put it.
Jeepers
 
Eos of the Eons said:
Terms to look up

Genotype, phenotype

Dominant, recessive, incomplete dominance, dihybrid cross

Epistasis, Polygenic, Pleiotropy, mulltiple alleles, intermediate inheritance

Consanguinity-why you don't marry relatives.

White cross eyed tigers are homozygous for a recessive allele that causes both albino coloration and the eye problem.

Stop it your giving me flashbacks to A level biology
 

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