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Evolution: the Facts.

Thanks again. I may take it like that, our instincts are our best teacher and companion.



Ok. I shall wait, if anyone can tell me about, relation between our instincs & logics. Whether logics(we are able to react & comment to anything even if we had never interected that anytime during our life...it looks right, it looks logical etc., how?

It sounds like you are talking about "intuition" here, something easily explained by an individual unconsciously drawing on its own past experiences. Again, no evidence such things are passed on.

ETA: It's still a very interesting question that you've asked about instincts and evolution though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
 
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It sounds like you are talking about "intuition" here, something easily explained by an individual unconsciously drawing on its own past experiences. Again, no evidence such things are passed on.

ETA: It's still a very interesting question that you've asked about instincts and evolution though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct

Thanks. Actually I am trying to know, what & how inharent informations are passed to next genarations. Otherwise, it can also be considered as "nature vs nurtue", phyenotype, constitution(a person's physical make up & disposition of mind; temperament
) etc.

Following aspect can be relevant:-

The simplest example of an instinctive behavior is a fixed action pattern, in which a short sequence of actions, without variation, are carried out in response to a clearly defined stimulus. However, instinctive behaviors can also be variable and responsive to the environment. Any behavior is instinctive if it is performed without being based upon prior experience, that is, in the absence of learning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
The nature versus nurture debate concerns the relative importance of an individual's innate qualities ("nature," i.e. nativism, or innatism) versus personal experiences ("nurture," i.e. empiricism or behaviorism) in determining or causing individual differences in physical and behavioral traits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_Nurture

Phenotype is any observable characteristic or trait of an organism: such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, behavior, and products of behavior (such as a bird's nest). Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.

genotype + environment → phenotype A slightly more nuanced version of the relationships is:
genotype + environment + random-variation → phenotype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

IN SOME SENSE IT CAN ALSO BE RELEVANT:-

According to Jainism, Universe and its constituents are uncreated and everlasting. These constituents behave according to the natural laws and their nature without interference from external entities. Dharma or true religion according to Jainism is vatthu sahāvo dhammo translated as "the intrinsic nature of a substance is its true dharma." Kārtikeyānupreksā (478) explains it as : “Dharma is nothing but the real nature of an object. Just as the nature of fire is to burn and the nature of water is to produce a cooling effect, in the same manner, the essential nature of the soul is to seek self-realization and spiritual elevation.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_(Jainism)
 
"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

I was just interested in knowing, how Instinct is is passed from one genaration to other? Memory seems not being transfered.

[Note: I do not claim to be an expert in this, and am merely speculating wildly.]

I would suppose that the mode of transfer depends entirely on what specific instinct is being considered. The term "instinct" seems to be much too broad for your answer to have a single, or even general, answer. I many cases, Sideroxylon's explanation could certainly be valid, but I am not sure that it covers all forms of instinct.

For instance, the example with the bees could be classified as an instinct through which a beneficial outcome is only incidentally reached through a behaviour which is essentially unrelated to the actual event, but which still solves the problem. That is, if the explanation offered is correct, then the bees would eat this form of fouled wax even in cases where this was not the result of a foul brood, for instance in an experimental setting. The instinct to eat the fouled wax therefore could be said not to have anything to do with the existence of foul broods at all. In fact, the action as such need not be an instinct at all, but a learned behaviour in which the bee will eat things that taste pleasant to it, but where each individual bee would have to learn that fouled wax tastes good. Conceivably, there may be bees in the same hive that don't think fouled wax taste good -- though I have no idea if there are -- which, if true, would show that it is a learned behaviour, or is at least a behaviour that has elements of learning.

Regardless of the specifics of this example, this seems to me to be a different class of instinct than, for instance, contraction instinct in sea anemones or in our own arms when touching a hot plate, or for instinct relating to relocation in case the immediate environment is somehow inadvantageous. This could be a class of instincts that are chemically bonded to an ordinary process within the organism, which causes the organism to react when exposed to a chemical or physical imbalance.

This class of instincts could have both learned and inherited elements, which could even reinforce each other, but the instinct itself need not be necessarily related to the stimuli. For instance, if a cell- or organ-level system within an organism bases its functionality on a certain ion balance, any environmental factor which disrupts this balance may cause the organism to relocate, whether this is a novel factor or a "known" one. The purportedly instinctual reaction could then be an expression of a more general class of instincts -- which are more easily explained in terms of inheritance -- triggered by a novel factor.

Related to this is of course instincts that are caused by a release of chemicals from one individual that serves to warn other individuals. The contraction or relocation instinct this triggers may very easily be explained within the framework of inheritance, for instance by assuming that muscular control of an organism is related to a large number of receptors, each of which can trigger the opening of ion channels, which in turn will cause the muscle to contract. If predation of one individual somehow releases a chemical substance for which all other individuals of the species have muscle-related receptors, this could cause contraction of muscles, causing the non-predated individuals to close shells, hide in burrows, or similar. On a macroscopic level, we might see this as clams hiding in the presence of a predator, whereas on a molecular level, this is simply a muscle contraction caused entirely by a chemical stimulus. It is trivial to understand how such a system might have evolved, even in the absence of inheritance of memory.

This system could of course be expanded to include the examples above. A human arm retracts from a hot plate because of biochemical processes which can be explained evolutionarily, whether or not the specific individual or its direct ancestors have any kind of memory of hot plates. Similarly, hiding or relocation instinct could be caused by changes in light, movement, sound, temperature changes, gravitational changes, or any other change which has the capacity to interact with the organism's nervous system (if any). In these cases, the release of a compound (for instance) that causes a behavioural effect would be analogous to that in the free-living example above, but be contained within the individual.

However, I have the feeling even these explanations would cover only a subset of the possible actions that would be covered by the term "instinct".
 
Hello Kotatsu,

Thanks for explaination. Yes instinct should be automatic without conscious mind. I think mother-children relationship. Mother nurses her child. It is different from the memory. It is different type of make up. It can just be an inharent sense. One question will be there. Whatever mother teach to her children esp. in early childhood. If we look at wild animals, probably we can say that they do all things due to their instict. But human have conscious mind, so whatever they do with their conscious mind that is not instinct. Ok?
 
Um, instincts are stereotypic behaviors that apply to members of a species in a specific situation. They are now called Modal Action Patterns, they specifically DO NOT include learned behaviors. Humans have no instincts after 6 weeks of age.

:)
 
Um, instincts are stereotypic behaviors that apply to members of a species in a specific situation. They are now called Modal Action Patterns, they specifically DO NOT include learned behaviors. Humans have no instincts after 6 weeks of age.

:)

How can you say that Humans have no instincts after 6 weeks of age?
 
Innatism is a philosophical doctrine that holds that the mind is born with ideas/knowledge, and that therefore the mind is not a 'blank slate' at birth, as early empiricists such as John Locke claimed. It asserts therefore that not all knowledge is obtained from experience and the senses.

The difference between innatism and nativismIn general usage the terms innatism and nativism are synonymous as they both refer to notions of preexisting ideas present in the mind. However, more correctly innatism refers to the philosophy of Plato and Descartes who assumed that innate ideas and principles are placed in the human mind by a God or an equivalent being or process.

Nativism represents an adaptation of this, grounded in the fields of genetics, cognitive psychology and psycholinguistics. Nativists hold that innate beliefs are in some way genetically programmed to arise in our mind, that is to say that innate beliefs are the phenotypes of certain genotypes that all humans have in common.
Innatism is invoked to explain how we can have knowledge of certain propositions that seem to go beyond experience, either (i) because of its universal applicability, or because (ii) its subject matter transcends experiential reality. Examples of the notions include:

Ethical truths
The notion of causality, that all events have a cause
Notions of good and evil
Logical and mathematical truths
Metaphysical notions concerning transcendent objects like God or souls
Avoidance of hazards (such as heights or potential sources of contagious disease)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innatism

Above is also relevant to instict.

However learned behaviour on account of instinct of teacher(mother etc.) shouls also be considered as Instict. Not so?
 
Really? No flight instinct? No instinct to love and protect their children? This is all learned behaviour?

"Not all instincts appear at birth
Some instinctive behaviors depend on maturational processes to appear. For instance, we commonly refer to birds "learning" to fly. However, young birds have been experimentally reared in devices that prevent them from moving their wings until they reached the age at which their cohorts were flying. These birds flew immediately and normally when released, showing that their improvement resulted from neuromuscular maturation and not true learning."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
 
Hello Kotatsu,

Hello.

Thanks for explaination. Yes instinct should be automatic without conscious mind. I think mother-children relationship. Mother nurses her child.

I think this is definitely a learned behaviour, rather than an instinct, as many women throughout history have not nursed their children, and many women even today don't breast-feed them at least. I would guess that the sucking reflex of the baby might be an instinct, though.

If we look at wild animals, probably we can say that they do all things due to their instict.

We most certainly cannot say that of all animals, given that there are many kinds of animals that do actually exhibit learned behaviour. I saw a documentary about monkeys once that detailed how a certain cohort of baboons had figured out a way to catch flamingos, and taught all new-born baboons this method, while baboons in other family-groups within the same area didn't catch flamingos at all.

But human have conscious mind, so whatever they do with their conscious mind that is not instinct. Ok?

I am not qualified to answer this question.

Um, instincts are stereotypic behaviors that apply to members of a species in a specific situation. They are now called Modal Action Patterns, they specifically DO NOT include learned behaviors. Humans have no instincts after 6 weeks of age.

This is a sufficiently broad statement to require evidence. Is retracting your arm from an electric fence or a hot plate entirely and exclusively a learned behaviour? What about throwing up bad food? Rebalancing yourself by shifting your weight?
 
It can be a matter of debate that learned behaviour from mother as a result of instinct of mother is instinct or learned behaviour?
 
I do not believe in "creation". However every scientist must be aware of the error probability of his calculations. "Science" is nothing but attempting to have an explanation for occurences (a model or hypothesis) and to find constants in those self repeating or experimentally repeated observations. If the model behaves as expected, we accept the hypothesis and confirm the model. From knowing how the model works in general we then try to find constants and factors influencing how it reacts and how many degrees of freedom it has. What we gain is predictability. However, all our confirmed hypothesis are accepted with 95%, 99%, 99.9% or let it be "very close to 100%" probability.Our predictions suffer from all influences we do not know or which are to complicated to be taken into account in our models and calculations. We never come around having to say: a "meter" is the x fold of the wavelength emitted by the isotope y, which we have calculated to be z nanometer +/- t pico-, femto-; atto-,zepto- or yoctometer. In addition we must accept that one or more alternative "models" could exist, explaining the effect with equal predictability and we never can exclude that even billions of similar occurences in an ordinary row are caused by chance. Finally constants we are able to manage are far away from infinity. We cannot observe effects which are too fast even for our most intelligent brain's imagination and also effects which are so "slow" that they repeat all billions of years. We most likely haven't seen one of those effects or one single at maximum. That neither excludes that those effects do exist nor that the effects do not repeat.
Based on that error probabiity all "alternative models" have a legitime right to exist, including religion, god and "creationism". Let the statistical error be as small as you like - the probability of alternative and /or religious models small as it can be, it can be a huge number in the coordinate system of universe or in time frames of near-eternity. Only bad scientists exclude those alternative models with absolute certainity. Creating dogmas is unscientific. The world lives from the exception of the rule, not from the rule. We wouldn't even have invented the wheel without the one having the idea of a wheel as antithesis of the popular dogma during his time. And finally: even the Evolution strictly according to Darwin couldn't exist without the "flaw" in the (genetic) rule. "Genetic Dogmatism" would have killed Darwin's evolution. Scientific dogmatism kills our all progress.

In very short: Science has nothing to offer for effects which do not repeat or have not repeated yet or which cannot be forced to repeat and also nothing for repeating effects which's latency time is beyond the time of our own univers' existence.

In some other words: Any singullar occurence or "effect" does not create a "rule" (an experiment is an attempt to force an effect to repeat). Without "rule" science cannot explain (or predict) the effect. If science cannot explain or predict an effect, it also cannot exclude it. The only scientific way to come around that dilemma, is to wait until it repeats. Until then both sides: the ones believing that the effect doesn' exist (was a misinterpretation or some singular occurence produced by chance) and the ones believing it did exist and will repeat, was not produced by chance and has own intelligence or "rule", both have equal rights to persist on their opinions. Both opinions are scientifically accurate.
 
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In very short: Science has nothing to offer for effects which do not repeat or have not repeated yet or which cannot be forced to repeat and also nothing for repeating effects which's latency time is beyond the time of our own univers' existence.

Wrong. Example : big bang. Science has to offer explanation for it, and we even have evidence for it.

Furthermore :
Based on that error probabiity all "alternative models" have a legitime right to exist, including religion, god and "creationism".

That is not even wrong. Everything which is not a scientific model has nothing lost in science. A model is not any "made up assertion". Creationism is *NOT* a scientific model. "Gods did it" never was. It is nonsense.
 
I do not believe in "creation". However every scientist must be aware of the error probability of his calculations.


That is nice that you don't believe in "creation", but scientist ARE aware that they may be in error, that is why theories are always under the gun, and to think otherwise is to not understand the workings of science.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
That is nice that you don't believe in "creation", but scientist ARE aware that they may be in error, that is why theories are always under the gun, and to think otherwise is to not understand the workings of science.

Paul

:) :) :)

Besides, the possibility of evolution being wrong doesn't make any number of ideas like creation or ID right. Competing ideas have to stand on their own merits, but ID fails.
 
Besides, the possibility of evolution being wrong doesn't make any number of ideas like creation or ID right. Competing ideas have to stand on their own merits, but ID fails.

As you know, any theory stands on its merits, it does not stand on belief.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
I do not believe in "creation". However every scientist must be aware of the error probability of his calculations. "Science" is nothing but attempting to have an explanation for occurences (a model or hypothesis) and to find constants in those self repeating or experimentally repeated observations. If the model behaves as expected, we accept the hypothesis and confirm the model. From knowing how the model works in general we then try to find constants and factors influencing how it reacts and how many degrees of freedom it has. What we gain is predictability. However, all our confirmed hypothesis are accepted with 95%, 99%, 99.9% or let it be "very close to 100%" probability.Our predictions suffer from all influences we do not know or which are to complicated to be taken into account in our models and calculations. We never come around having to say: a "meter" is the x fold of the wavelength emitted by the isotope y, which we have calculated to be z nanometer +/- t pico-, femto-; atto-,zepto- or yoctometer. In addition we must accept that one or more alternative "models" could exist, explaining the effect with equal predictability and we never can exclude that even billions of similar occurences in an ordinary row are caused by chance. Finally constants we are able to manage are far away from infinity. We cannot observe effects which are too fast even for our most intelligent brain's imagination and also effects which are so "slow" that they repeat all billions of years. We most likely haven't seen one of those effects or one single at maximum. That neither excludes that those effects do exist nor that the effects do not repeat.
Based on that error probabiity all "alternative models" have a legitime right to exist, including religion, god and "creationism". Let the statistical error be as small as you like - the probability of alternative and /or religious models small as it can be, it can be a huge number in the coordinate system of universe or in time frames of near-eternity. Only bad scientists exclude those alternative models with absolute certainity. Creating dogmas is unscientific. The world lives from the exception of the rule, not from the rule. We wouldn't even have invented the wheel without the one having the idea of a wheel as antithesis of the popular dogma during his time. And finally: even the Evolution strictly according to Darwin couldn't exist without the "flaw" in the (genetic) rule. "Genetic Dogmatism" would have killed Darwin's evolution. Scientific dogmatism kills our all progress.

In very short: Science has nothing to offer for effects which do not repeat or have not repeated yet or which cannot be forced to repeat and also nothing for repeating effects which's latency time is beyond the time of our own univers' existence.

In some other words: Any singullar occurence or "effect" does not create a "rule" (an experiment is an attempt to force an effect to repeat). Without "rule" science cannot explain (or predict) the effect. If science cannot explain or predict an effect, it also cannot exclude it. The only scientific way to come around that dilemma, is to wait until it repeats. Until then both sides: the ones believing that the effect doesn' exist (was a misinterpretation or some singular occurence produced by chance) and the ones believing it did exist and will repeat, was not produced by chance and has own intelligence or "rule", both have equal rights to persist on their opinions. Both opinions are scientifically accurate.

Very well explained with equanimity. Thanks. Therefore I use words "yet unclear" "its science could yet be understood etc. etc. I also use science as not yet absolute & final or miss & weaknesses can still be there. So my signature;
"Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear.Till then, don't leave hopes & just continue, untill it could either be known or dies naturally, in full."

Regards.
 
Based on that error probabiity all "alternative models" have a legitime right to exist, including religion, god and "creationism".

For an alternative model to be taken seriously by science, it needs something a bit more substantial than "hey, you never know!" arguments.

People do have the right to contemplate their own pet theories, even if they are not considered productive to anyone else, even Intelligent Design. But, don't expect other scientists to accept them. Not unless something productive can come out of them.
 
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