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Evolution: the Facts.

We're talking about lineages here. The evo claim is novel genes arise through mutation, etc,....and are selected for, but the same mechanisms of natural selection, genetic drift, and subgroup isolation are powerful means of decreasing genetic variation.

Once again, my analogy is someone buying something for $100 and selling it for $5. You can talk about the $5 that comes in all day long but that's just part of the process. How about the $95 that was lost?

Neutralism was initially rejected Ant, by Darwinists. Why do you think that was?

Sure, it doesn't deny that selection takes place (nor does creationist, ID or anything else) but it significantly changes the darwinian narrative. You need to think about the processes envisioned.
 
We're talking about lineages here. The evo claim is novel genes arise through mutation, etc,....and are selected for, but the same mechanisms of natural selection, genetic drift, and subgroup isolation are powerful means of decreasing genetic variation.

Once again, my analogy is someone buying something for $100 and selling it for $5. You can talk about the $5 that comes in all day long but that's just part of the process. How about the $95 that was lost?

Neutralism was initially rejected Ant, by Darwinists. Why do you think that was?

Sure, it doesn't deny that selection takes place (nor does creationist, ID or anything else) but it significantly changes the darwinian narrative. You need to think about the processes envisioned.

Because, as has been pointed out repeatedly, you utterly misinterpret what the current genetic theories actually say.
Of the three examples you mention only subgroup isolation tends to decrease genetic variability over time in general, but errors in meiosis are able to re-introduce a massive amount of potential variablilty every single time within a single generation.
So your analogy would be more along the lines that every time you buy something for $1 you get to keep the rest, but at random moments the storekeeps make a mistake when giving back your money and actually give you more than you had before.

Natural selection acts on genetic drift to increase genetic variability and neither are therefore assumed to always cause a decrease in varibility. They can, but they don't need to as you seem to assume.
 
We're talking about lineages here. The evo claim is novel genes arise through mutation, etc,....and are selected for, but the same mechanisms of natural selection, genetic drift, and subgroup isolation are powerful means of decreasing genetic variation.

And I already showed you papers about how genetic variation can be increased by offsetting the gene loss via both increased retention of duplicated genes that have evolved divergent functionality, and by the accumulation of neutral mutations that aren't subject to selection pressures, especially in smaller populations. Then, selection acts on the occasional non-neutral mutation that arises, which is why even genetic drift can result in increased variation.

Michael Lynch even proposed that the relaxation of selection that resulted from the increased genetic drift in smaller populations is what allowed the neutral mutations to become fixed much sooner than in larger populations, allowing a buildup in the genome resulting in the expanded genome and the more complex genomic architecture of "higher" organisms (ie, the reason vertebrates evolved from their prokaryote ancestors).

Once again, my analogy is someone buying something for $100 and selling it for $5. You can talk about the $5 that comes in all day long but that's just part of the process. How about the $95 that was lost?

That's a bad analogy. A better one would be taking that $100 and depositing it in a bank account that gives, say, 10% interest every month. If you spend $95, you're left with $5. Then the next month that increases to $5.50. The month after that, it's at $6.05, and so on.

Wait long enough, and soon you'll have your $100 back.

Neutralism was initially rejected Ant, by Darwinists. Why do you think that was?

Mainly because molecular genetics was in its infancy back then. Nowadays, the discussion is over the relative influence each mechanism has in the overall evolutionary theory (neutralism explains some things that selectionism does not, and vice versa).

Sure, it doesn't deny that selection takes place (nor does creationist, ID or anything else) but it significantly changes the darwinian narrative.

It does no such thing.

You need to think about the processes envisioned.

You need to understand the processes.

Also, this is incorrect.

No, it's not. See Lynch and Andreas Wagner.
 
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And I already showed you papers about how genetic variation can be increased by offsetting the gene loss via both increased retention of duplicated genes that have evolved divergent functionality, and by the accumulation of neutral mutations that aren't subject to selection pressures, especially in smaller populations. Then, selection acts on the occasional non-neutral mutation that arises, which is why even genetic drift can result in increased variation

That's a nice claim but you haven't shown, nor has science, a comparison of expected loss via genetic drift and subgroup isolation with rates of gain. That's the point. Mutations, for example, are thought to happen slowly with most being deleterious. Isolation and genetic drift, however, decrease genetic variation rather quickly.

Assuming a large genome, this may not make a difference in producing a new species as gene loss can work, but the process serves to diminish genetic variation over time, and evos have not shown a comparison to verify their claims of gains offset the losses over time making the origin of gene families more tenuous as far as Darwinian and observed alternative mechanisms.

Michael Lynch even proposed that the relaxation of selection that resulted from the increased genetic drift in smaller populations is what allowed the neutral mutations to become fixed much sooner than in larger populations

Which is exactly what critics of Darwinism said all along as far as selection being a conservative process limiting macroevolution. Whether Lynch's solution is adequate is intriguing but no proven. It just adds more hope to a failed Darwinian paradigm.

That's a bad analogy. A better one would be taking that $100 and depositing it in a bank account that gives, say, 10% interest every month. If you spend $95, you're left with $5. Then the next month that increases to $5.50. The month after that, it's at $6.05, and so on.

Wait long enough, and soon you'll have your $100 back.

Except that we know the bank's interest rate and that the mechanisms of mutation are slower and insufficient, or at best unsubstantiated.

And you are wrong to claim the Darwinian narrative isn't changed. By Darwinian, I refer to the Modern Synthesis. Lynch gives you the reason up front in arguing evolutionary progress results principally in terms of novel genes with a relaxation of selection pressures.
 
Because, as has been pointed out repeatedly, you utterly misinterpret what the current genetic theories actually say.
Of the three examples you mention only subgroup isolation tends to decrease genetic variability over time in general, but errors in meiosis are able to re-introduce a massive amount of potential variablilty every single time within a single generation.

Once again, you are ignoring the point. Just because men can walk does not mean they walked to the moon. You have the force of gravity to deal with. Same with this. Increasing variation is the walking. Decreasing variation is the gravity.
 
That's a nice claim but you haven't shown, nor has science, a comparison of expected loss via genetic drift and subgroup isolation with rates of gain. That's the point. Mutations, for example, are thought to happen slowly with most being deleterious.

Under a heavily selectionist view that's ignorant of actual genomic data, perhaps. But neutral theory and genetic study shows that's not the case at all.

A number of mutation pairs have been identified where one of those mutations or the other alone does effectively nothing, but both mutations together have a massive effect. Take, for instance, the mineralocorticoid receptor (MR, activated by the hormone aldosterone), and the glucocorticoid receptor (GR, activated by the hormone cortisol). Originally, there was only the MR receptor. Somewhere along the line, the gene for the MR receptor was duplicated, resulting in two genes coding for MR. This was a neutral mutation, since the functionality of the genes didn't change at all (duplicate genes for MR have no actual effect on aldosterone sensitivity when coded). Then came two changes in the duplicate MR: first, leucine was replaced by glutamine at position 111. This was also a neutral mutation, since while it created a new amino-acid chain, it virtually wiped out all sensitivity in that duplicate receptor (which, of course, did nothing at all to the organism, since the original copy of MR provided all the aldosterone sensitivity needed). Then came the second mutation, where serine was replaced by proline at position 106. This repositioned the amino-acid chain, allowing it to form a hydrogen bond with a hydroxyl group of cortisol (something aldosterone lacks). The end result is now the organism now has receptors for both cortisol and aldosterone, new genes with a novel function created via duplication and neutral mutations.

Other functions are separated by even larger mutational gaps. Erik Schultes and David Bartel transformed one ribozyme sequence into a completely different one, unrelated in sequence, structure, or enzymatic activity. And they did it by changing the first sequence one molecule at a time. It took only 40 mutations total. The first 18 or so of those changes did not change the enzymatic activity of that sequence (ie, it still functioned to encode the ribozyme). The next four changes suddenly swapped the function, so that it suddenly performed the enzymatic activity of the other ribozyme sequence, and kept that functionality all the way through the remaining mutations.

Isolation and genetic drift, however, decrease genetic variation rather quickly.

Losses which are made up for by things like duplication. Again, see Ohno and Rodin.

Assuming a large genome, this may not make a difference in producing a new species as gene loss can work, but the process serves to diminish genetic variation over time, and evos have not shown a comparison to verify their claims of gains offset the losses over time making the origin of gene families more tenuous as far as Darwinian and observed alternative mechanisms.

I gave you a study that made a direct comparison of gain vs. loss rate.

Which is exactly what critics of Darwinism said all along as far as selection being a conservative process limiting macroevolution.

No, this nothing like what you and your creationist buddies have been arguing.

Whether Lynch's solution is adequate is intriguing but no proven. It just adds more hope to a failed Darwinian paradigm.

No, it explains how things evolved using known processes as discovered and discussed by scientists working in their respective evolutionary fields.

And you are wrong to claim the Darwinian narrative isn't changed. By Darwinian, I refer to the Modern Synthesis. Lynch gives you the reason up front in arguing evolutionary progress results principally in terms of novel genes with a relaxation of selection pressures.

The Synthetic Model is not a set theory with a single explanation for everything, despite your repeated attempts to claim otherwise (viz your constant use of the term "NeoDarwinism" to refer to the whole theory, when that term is properly applied to one small aspect of it). There are a number of different mechanisms, all acting at different times on different things in different circumstances, with the relative function and importance of each mechanism changing depending on what part of evolution you're looking at.
 
(In case anyone was wondering, the reason I've been away recently is that I have started digging into the other Davison papers, which are pretty amazing (1). My favourite is still "Ontogeny" for its blatant craziness, but both "Blind Alley" and "Evolution" are pretty good. They are actually more science-y than "Ontogeny", but that's not saying much. Largely, they suffer from the same main drawbacks, though, such as not really referencing any data after the 1970s. There are some references later than that, and they are actually used in the text to support specific points, but there's not many of them, and they aren't always used to support the points you'd want to have support for.

I am really starting to look forward to the large one: "An Evolutionary Manifesto". It doesn't mention that a Creator is a logical necessity until page 3, which is always a better sign than a purportedly scientific paper that asserts this already on page 2. From what I can see by leafing through it, it seems to elaborate a lot on Davison's views, which is a good sign, because his other papers (2) are often quite thin on details, but if Manifesto -- which has more pictures -- live up to my expectation, I think this will be a very good read, actually!

It also has substantially more references (45), but many (c. 8, depending on what you count as "popular science") of those, again, are to popular science books, and many (31) are from before 1980. Still, on the face of it, it appears to be more well-researched -- or at least extensive -- than the others, and I hope this means that it actually is better.)


---
(1) And as randman has simply ignored all my last comments here and elsewhere, this seemed a good time to take a break and study the opposition a bit. Another reason is that I've actually been away collecting parasites from Bald Ibis, Great Grey Owl, Lesser White-fronted Goose and Peregrine Falcon, resulting in one new species and genus for my country: Ardeicola exilis from the Ibis. Not so impressive, perhaps, when you consider that the last time anyone did a survey of lice here was in 1910...
(2) Note: I haven't looked at the ones specifically dedicated to semi-meiosis yet.
 
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randman said:
That's a nice claim but you haven't shown, nor has science, a comparison of expected loss via genetic drift and subgroup isolation with rates of gain. That's the point. Mutations, for example, are thought to happen slowly with most being deleterious. Isolation and genetic drift, however, decrease genetic variation rather quickly.
randman hasn't shown that genetic diversity NECESSARILY decreases during subpopulation isolation either. Furthermore, he drastically underestimates the frequency of mutations, and their effects. In fact, we simply don't know what most mutations do--I'm not aware of anyone counting up the potentials and estimating it. There are a number of mutations (to the third "letter" in most codons [I think that's the right term; I may be getting the term wrong, though...], for example) that don't change a thing. And as for the rate, mutations, transcription errors, and other errors (crossovers, double crossovers, etc) happen frequently enough that we can expect multiple errors between generations for an organism with a genome as long as a human (and by "multiple" I mean "more than 100, but I don't remember the exact amount"; I think it's 130 or so).

So yeah, there's ample opportunity for genetic variation to increase within a population, even assuming merely statistical phenomena are operating on it.

Which is exactly what critics of Darwinism said all along as far as selection being a conservative process limiting macroevolution. Whether Lynch's solution is adequate is intriguing but no proven. It just adds more hope to a failed Darwinian paradigm.
No, they haven't. Critics of evolution have historically argued for a steady (divinely-inspired) state, which is no where NEAR the same thing as arguing that natural selection is predominantly a conservative force. This is pure equivocation.

Except that we know the bank's interest rate and that the mechanisms of mutation are slower and insufficient, or at best unsubstantiated.
Again, randman is remarkably ignorant of the actual data (it's in the genetics book I cited earlier). Mutations are common enough that we each have over one hundred new mutations which were not found in our parents. It's both substantiated and fast enough.

And you are wrong to claim the Darwinian narrative isn't changed. By Darwinian, I refer to the Modern Synthesis. Lynch gives you the reason up front in arguing evolutionary progress results principally in terms of novel genes with a relaxation of selection pressures.
The theory of evolution has been updated to include new data. That's what happens with scientific theories. Only pseudoscientists use this as evidence that a theory is flawed.

Also, I don't like Lynch's conclusion. It seems to me that radiations happen under drastically different (from the norm) selection regiems, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that these differences were relaxation of selection pressure. It's difficult to imagine any justification for calling a mass extinction or the recovery period a relaxation of selection pressures.
 
As if the theory validates itself. That is a broad, ignorant statement.

He didn't say that, there is evidence to support it, and that is why it is a scientific-theory. And either evolution-deniers’ don't understand the theory, and/or they are just plain lying.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

I was just interested in knowing, how Instinct is is passed from one genaration to other? Memory seems not being transfered.
 
"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

I was just interested in knowing, how Instinct is is passed from one genaration to other? Memory seems not being transfered.

good question. shame i can't answer it.
 
"Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular behavior."

I was just interested in knowing, how Instinct is is passed from one genaration to other? Memory seems not being transfered.

Through complex interactions of genes, and perhaps those that lead to encouragement of particular behaviours through reward.

From Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene":
This story [how bees deal with the infectious disease called foul brood] illustrates a number of important points which came up in the previous chapter. It shows that it can be perfectly proper to speak of a 'gene for behaviour so-and-so' even if we haven't the faintest idea of the chemical chain of embryonic causes leading from gene to behaviour. The chain of causes could even turn out to involve learning. For example, it could be that the uncapping gene exerts its effect by giving bees a taste for infected wax. This means they will find the eating of the wax caps covering disease-victims rewarding, and will therefore tend to repeat it. Even if this is how the gene works, it is still truly a gene 'for uncapping' provided that, other things being equal, bees possessing the gene end up by uncapping, and bees not possessing the gene do not uncap.
Secondly it illustrates the fact that genes 'cooperate' in their effects on the behaviour of the communal survival machine. The throwing-out gene is useless unless it is accompanied by the uncapping gene and vice versa. Yet the genetic experiments show equally clearly that the two genes are in principle quite separable in their journey through the generations.

As far as their useful work is concerned you can think of them as a single cooperating unit, but as replicating genes they are two free and independent agents.

Read the preceding here:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=13189.0;wap2
 
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Through complex interactions of genes, and perhaps those that lead to encouragement of particular behaviours through reward.

From Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene":


Read the preceding here:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=13189.0;wap2

Thanks. Estimates of population increase is horrible.

Can you better explain it;-

" perhaps those that lead to encouragement of particular behaviours through reward."

Another question will be whether memory is transfered to next generations? On cloning, I think, only memory is not transfered. Then, what should we take to Instinct?
 
Thanks. Estimates of population increase is horrible.

Can you better explain it;-

" perhaps those that lead to encouragement of particular behaviours through reward."

An animal receives a pleasure sense reward for particular behaviour.

Another question will be whether memory is transfered to next generations? On cloning, I think, only memory is not transfered. Then, what should we take to Instinct?

There isn't any reason to believe memory is or can be passed on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism

The instinctive behaviours would first appear within an individual and then be selected for if they were beneficial, becoming a feature of subsequent populations.
 
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An animal receives a pleasure sense reward for particular behaviour.

Means, that pleasure sence reward can lead to getting intincts?



There isn't any reason to believe memory is or can be passed on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism

The instinctive behaviours would first appear within an individual and then be selected for if they were beneficial, becoming a feature of subsequent populations.

Thanks. Does it mean we got whatever were beneficial to us since our evolution--as intinct?

Whether instict is related to logic?
 
Means, that pleasure sence reward can lead to getting intincts?


Thanks. Does it mean we got whatever were beneficial to us since our evolution--as intinct?

Whether instict is related to logic?

Yes, tendencies towards beneficial behaviours will be selected for (or rather a gene or combination of genes that makes such behaviours pleasurable would be).

I am not an expert and that is about as much as I can say. If you wait a bit, I am sure one of the clever science forum denizens will be able to offer a greater insight or perhaps correct me.
 
Yes, tendencies towards beneficial behaviours will be selected for (or rather a gene or combination of genes that makes such behaviours pleasurable would be).

Thanks again. I may take it like that, our instincts are our best teacher and companion.

I am not an expert and that is about as much as I can say. If you wait a bit, I am sure one of the clever science forum denizens will be able to offer a greater insight or perhaps correct me.

Ok. I shall wait, if anyone can tell me about, relation between our instincs & logics. Whether logics(we are able to react & comment to anything even if we had never interected that anytime during our life...it looks right, it looks logical etc., how?
 

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