Electric Vehicles

[jadebox]

Pretty much. Hell a very small generator might actually be more practical, but I haven't crunched the numbers on that.

It's called a "Range Extender." My i3 has one built in. I chose the model with the REX to avoid anxiety about the issues being discussed. But, after owning the car for almost two years, I have used it three times and those times were really just because I had it - not because I was going to be stuck somewhere without it.

If I were making the purchase decision now, I would buy the non-REX (BEV) model which is a little less expensive, has less to maintain/break, and gets a little more range.

 

[gnome]

I'm all for safety features. I've never driven without seatbelts except in old cars that had none. I don't mind airbags though I'd just as soon skip them and wear a good belt. I certainly appreciate crush zones and door rails, better bumpers, dual brake systems, and that sort of thing.

But I'm not so sold on some of the other features. I've been utterly stuck on back roads when my traction control would not allow my tires to spin a little. I'd just as soon be rid of ABS too, and go back to knowing how to apply the brakes, which I've done with great success since 1965. I'd rather have good side view mirrors and a proper rear window than a bunch of buzzers and cameras and more electronics to go wrong.

I do use cruise control occasionally on long trips, just to ease the leg cramps, and do nowadays (reluctantly) have an automatic transmission, though that is only because since my 2012 cycling accident I can no longer drive very long distances myself, so need a car my wife is comfortable driving too. But for most purposes I'd just as soon ditch the cruise and go back to a stick shift.

Of course I know I'm an outlying old curmudgeon, but there it is. I still wish (vainly) that someone someday would design an electric economy hot rod with all that luxo crap left off. Bring back my 1985 Honda hatchback with an electric power train. No air, no traction control or abs, manual windows, big rear window you could see out of. Handled well, went fast enough, great gas mileage. If the camshaft had not snapped in half at 185 thousand miles I'd probably have it still (rust patches and all).

Possibly not all of them, but many of the features do have off switches--or possibly different solutions to the same problems. I can support having manual override. Like how some automatics let you choose your own gear anyway.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Both my cars with traction control have a button to turn it off.

Traction control was something I was concerned with when I wanted to get a Prius V. I had read of a lot of people having issues with their Priuseseseses in icy conditions where they'd have issues with tracking control making it hard to get going at times. There was some weird way to turn it off if you wanted to.

Thankfully, mine ended up just having a button. I've only needed to use that button once when going up a snowy hill.

 

[acbytesla]

Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged Youtube channel (the thing that seeded my interest in EV's) is sure that we're already there. Batteries are close to $100 a Kwh, and you can buy an EV for under £10k in China, now. He is sure that it is legacy manufacturers inflating the cost of their EV's to protect sales of their ICE cars, because they can't transition the plants quickly enough.

Not cheap enough. That's $7,000 for a 70Kwh. And that doesn't include installation cost. I don't have money to burn. $50 seems about where we need to be.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

There are plenty of people that need a car, but don't require 70Kwh of range

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There are plenty of people that need a car, but don't require 70Kwh of range

Or perhaps "who *rarely* require more than X miles range". It's one of those observations that seems simple and obvious when we're thinking about other people, but maybe less so for ourselves because we fret about the times when our own car won't do the job rather than the bulk of short trips where a small battery would be fine.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well yeah because a car is a major investment, probably the second biggest one in most people's lives and one that is only going to get you where you need to go "most" of the time isn't worth it.

It's like saying a house without a roof is a viable option for some people because it... well it doesn't rain the bulk of the days I'm in my house.

"I want to go further then the the fuel-carry-range of my car therefore will need a way to refuel the vehicle away from my home" is not a niche market.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

No, it's not. However, as someone who had that range anxiety, I can say that it soon passes once you become familiar with the car, and my Leaf has issues accepting more than one rapid charge per day

 

[malbui]

The range anxiety thing was one of the reasons I went for the TM3 LR (maximum theoretical range around 540km, practical usage into the 400s because I very very rarely charge above 80%), but in practice it doesn't affect me at all. I'm lucky that I can slow charge at 18km/h in my garage during commuting times, just to keep topped up, but for the small number of really long journeys I do range doesn't come into consideration apart from looking for a supercharger 300km ahead so I can top up the car while emptying myself.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I think people underestimate how much "infrastructure saturation" gasoline has and how little electric car charging has.

There are 16 gas stations within a one mile drive of my house. 3 within what I would call "walking distance." All but one of them (according to the GasBuddy app) have diesel. Most have E85. 1 has liquid propane and CNG.

The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).

The nearest Tesla Supercharger is 27 miles away.

Currently for the purposes of charging a vehicle electricity is least accessible option for me unless I'm at my house.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think people underestimate how much "infrastructure saturation" gasoline has and how little electric car charging has.

There are 16 gas stations within a one mile drive of my house. 3 within what I would call "walking distance." All but one of them (according to the GasBuddy app) have diesel. Most have E85. 1 has liquid propane and CNG.

The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).

The nearest Tesla Supercharger is 27 miles away.

Currently for the purposes of charging a vehicle electricity is least accessible option for me unless I'm at my house.

That is, again, judging future possibilities from past conditions. You have this gas pump to charger ratio because just a few years ago, EV's were rare and exotic. A charger network is far simpler and cheaper to build, maintain, and supply than fuel stations. No underground tanks, no tank trucks, no fire hazard, no pollution hazards.

Hans

 

[TurkeysGhost]

That is, again, judging future possibilities from past conditions. You have this gas pump to charger ratio because just a few years ago, EV's were rare and exotic. A charger network is far simpler and cheaper to build, maintain, and supply than fuel stations. No underground tanks, no tank trucks, no fire hazard, no pollution hazards.

Hans

If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually as EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?

 

[JoeMorgue]

If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually if EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?

True the gas station, which I'm recalling correctly make almost none of their profit off of the actual gas, probably won't care.

Until we can get charging times (and full charging not hummingbirding "I'll charge just enough to make it to my next location" charging) down to about 15 or fewer minutes in a universally accepted standard though it still won't happen.

 

[jadebox]

The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).

You really are comparing apples and something much more different than oranges. As an EV owner, you don't need charging stations near your house. It is better when they are farther away.

 

[Dr. Keith]

If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually as EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?

I travel a fair bit and I have spent maybe $100 total in convenience stores over the last 2 years. If I had to sit for 15-20 minutes and they had some tables set up to make that a reasonable proposition, I could spend that much per trip. Electric charging could be huge for convenience stores. Especially the nicer ones.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You really are comparing apples and something much more different than oranges. As an EV owner, you don't need charging stations near your house. It is better when they are farther away.

I imagine the point was that they are very common, and similarly common farther away, rather than to boast that they are all clustered around ST's house.

Go back 110 years or so and you'd have to plan your route to know where there were hardware stores or chemist's shops where you could buy tin cans of petroleum spirit. Though of course you could load up with extra tins before you set off to extend your range.

 

[malbui]

I think it's important to reiterate as well that we're still in the early stages of the roll-out of high-power EV charging stations. The first drive-in service station in the US opened in 1913 and by 1935 there were more than 200,000 of them. Given, as Hans mentions above, the lesser technical challenges in installing electric chargers than in constructing gas stations, I would imagine that in another 20 years the landscape will be significantly different and that range anxiety and charger-hopping will be forgotten.


ETA: I see someone had similar thought processes to me.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Go back 110 years or so and you'd have to plan your route to know where there were hardware stores or chemist's shops where you could buy tin cans of petroleum spirit. Though of course you could load up with extra tins before you set off to extend your range.

And that's my point.

I want to drive cross country. I don't have to download an app or sit down and draft what basically amounts to a flight plan where I map out the distance between refueling stops. I just... go knowing that I'm always, outside of rare one offs, going to be near enough a gas station that I can pretty much fill up / top off my tank anytime I want. I don't have to plan stops, hotels, restaurants, sight seeing around what's closest to an gas station like I would if I was planning around electric car charging.

It's not "range anxiety" per se, it's it not being a factor at all. I know I'm always close enough to a gas station so that unless I intentionally put effort into trying to wait to the last possible moment I can just notice I need gas whenever and fill up.

 

[Lplus]

I assume you have a ten inch tungsten spike mounted to your steering wheel to keep you alert while driving. That little pressure in the middle of your chest as you brake a little too hard is a great reminder of how important safe driving is.

That's why it's vitally important that you never tell your children to be quiet so you can concentrate on driving. Real drivers only drive manual cars with no traction control, no ABS, no seatbelts, no airbags, and with their trunks filled with nitroglycerin so they are always completely on while driving.

Sarcasm is the resort of someone who can't actually think of a sensible argument.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Sarcasm is the resort of someone who can't actually think of a sensible argument.

"Safety features don't make cars less safe, that's stupid."

There, no sarcasm in that sentence.