Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[Dabop]

You're absolutely right, but these things are being addressed already. I'm seeing towing performance I wouldn't have believed a couple of years ago, and getting 7 kw AC chargers where cars are normally parked overnight is just a matter of logistics.

7-11kw is your 'base level' home charger on a single phase supply, the 20-22kw three phase ones are readily available (and not much more expensive than the single phase versions even)
Zappi from the UK is one of the more common home EV chargers here is Oz in both 7kw and 22kw versions (mostly due to its ready integration with home solar and 'smart' load balancing which some others (cough Tesla) can't do...)

 

[Dabop]

I think trucks are another angle where it makes sense to wait. Let the real enthusiasts play with the things for the moment and watch the capability improve.

Trucks are already mainstream (my sisters place has an EV pantech delivery truck (4 tonner JAC) doing their home grocery delivery runs from the local supermarket, my local courier company here has one EV delivery van (BYD T3) already and a second on the way... (and thats in (very) rural Qld...)
(the Atto3 I did a test drive in is charged completely offgrid by its owner, and when I get mine, it too will be charged completely offgrid...)

 

[acbytesla]

For most of the Australian public- you can't even DRIVE one of those 'trucks' legally (even unloaded) basically anything over a F150/Ram1500 is a nogo without a truck licence... and if you did and were caught (and you would be the first time you were pulled over at an RBT) then you are classified as an unlicenced driver (even if you have a valid car licence- you do not have a valid truck licence...)- 3 months licence suspension, and well over a grand in fines (and god help you if you are involved in an accident!!!)

So its a bit pointless even trying to sell them- here your rego costs go WAAAY up, they cost a small fortune (as in more than many peoples houses) to buy new (if you can even find one- Ford don't sell them in Australia, Dodge only sell the 1500 and the Chevvy isnt sold here either) when you could buy the Euro/Japanese trucks for quarter of the price, and get far better mileage with their diesels than the US 'monster trucks' (which use more diesel than my 8 tonner Mercedes tiltray does!!!)


An EV version is already available (several in fact)- theres the ECanter I showed before, the Hyundai Mighty, Isuzu ELF, the JAC N series, LDV EDeliver all are capable of towing 4.5 tonnes or more, some up to 9 tonnes if you have a MR truck licence all with 300-400km range and fast DC charging and cost less than the US 'trucks' anyway...

So your arguments may apply in the US- but not anywhere else... (and the US is well behind on EV uptake compared to many other countries, even here in Australia, they are taking off in a big way...)

I can't offer an informed rebuttal of Australian use of trucks. A trucker's license is not required in the US for even a F-550. The dividing line here is 26,000 lbs. In the US, particularly rural US, big pickups are everywhere. Do we need them? Probably not. But I loved my F350 with the 7.3 diesel.

 

[Dabop]

You can get a towbar for the MG4 here. It was one possibility if I couldn't get the e-bike in the car (mine is an MG4), I just didn't want to do it. But it's only rated for 500 kg so it's a bit limiting. You're not going to be towing a caravan or a horse trailer.

Hasn't been approved for Australia yet and even the Atto is double that lol (I can tow my car trailer or horse float legally empty with the Atto- which is what I want the towbar for- I run a small trailer hire company, and being able to tow the trailers is a must- even that 500kg is too low (the car trailer is 600kg empty, the float is 950kg empty)
The Atto couldn't handle my caravan (but then not many can, it weighs in at 3.2 tonnes lol) but mums little Robyn poptop would be quite legal behind the Atto...
(not hers, but identical)

Mum and my stepdad did the 'big lap' in theirs no problems... (its actually quite nice considering its size)

 

[Dabop]

I can't offer an informed rebuttal of Australian use of trucks. A trucker's license is not required in the US for even a F-550. The dividing line here is 26,000 lbs. In the US, particularly rural US, big pickups are everywhere. Do we need them? Probably not. But I loved my F350 with the 7.3 diesel.

They are ridiculously expensive, and incredibly thirsty to boot (I know a guy who was desperately trying to sell his Ram 1500- the one that was advertisised in Australia as 'eats utes for breakfast'- what they didn't mention was that their towing capacity is an outright lie in Australia- they were all registered with the 'car licence' 4500kg GVM limit- which considering their size and weight, meant that many Japanese utes could actually legally outtow them lol...

Payload limits RAM 1500 towing capacity - carsales.com.au

New RAM 1500’s 4500kg towing capacity is significantly restricted by GCM limits

www.carsales.com.au

If you’re buying a new RAM 1500 with plans to tow a trailer up to its maximum 4500kg, be prepared to go on a diet because there’s a good chance that your rig will be overweight once you hop aboard.

To not exceed maximum Gross Combined Mass (which is the maximum legal weight for vehicle and trailer combined, as specified by the manufacturer) while taking full advantage of the RAM 1500 Laramie’s maximum 4500kg tow capacity, you will have just 87kg of payload remaining.

Payload includes any occupants, including the driver, according to RAM Trucks Australia.

So if for example you weigh 100kg, your rig will be 13kg overloaded as soon as you climb onto the RAM’s side steps.

You 'could' have a GVM upgrade done- but that basically doubles your yearly rego, and then you get stuck with the whole 'LR licence needed to drive it' hassles

And where diesel costs over $2 a litre in many places, those thirsty V8's are a wallet killer....
My local servo not that long ago (it was $2.05 a litre last time I filled up)

(thats 8.5 gallons for the yanks)

My eight tonne Merc tilt tray has the turbo diesel (4.2L 4 cylinder) and is legal to carry 6 tonne on its tray and up to 9 tonnes on the trailer... it easily keeps up with the traffic from a standing start, has a top speed in excess of the legal speed limit, and uses less fuel than any of the US 'trucks' aka utes on steroids...


US utes simply aren't good outside the US...

 

[Rolfe]

7-11kw is your 'base level' home charger on a single phase supply, the 20-22kw three phase ones are readily available (and not much more expensive than the single phase versions even)
Zappi from the UK is one of the more common home EV chargers here is Oz in both 7kw and 22kw versions (mostly due to its ready integration with home solar and 'smart' load balancing which some others (cough Tesla) can't do...)
View attachment 59044View attachment 59045

So? I'm talking about public infrastructure which will allow people in flats and terraced houses to have an EV. They're not going to be installing Zappis along the roadside. Lots and lots of cheap 7 kw units is the way to maximise access.

 

[Dabop]

Shame no-one has ever thought about that...

Oh wait...




Plus for many people, a 400-500km range EV would see them needing to recharge only once a week or even less... (do it while shopping lol)

(plus there already are 'Home EV charger sharing' systems in place- make money off your home EV charger when you aren't using it- rent it out via an app lol)
Here in Oz...


UK...

 

[Rolfe]

I'm just pointing out that a lot more of these are needed. Lots of places have none. Too much headline grabbing about ultra-rapids being installed all over the place and not enough attention to the real needs of ordinary motorists.

 

[Here_to_learn]

I'm starting to do some EV research and wanted to hear some opinions from those around here who have done theirs.

As far as range goes, I am trying to figure out what range I need to be aiming for. I have little faith in the range limits advertised by the manufacturers as these are likely done under ideal conditions and not real world.

I have a cottage that we like to travel to on weekends. This is one of the primary reasons for buying an EV, to eliminate the need to burn gas for these weekend trips. We frequently do this drive late at at night, with the kids asleep in the car so I don't like the idea of having to stop and charge along the way so I'd like something that will get us there in one go.

Its a 376km trip door to door and the latter portion is very hilly with a 200m elevation increase so a little more up than down. The car will be loaded to the gills for a longer trip. 2 adults, 2 kids as well as luggage and food. We will also be doing the trip in -20C temps at times although I'm not sure how much effect that has on the batteries anymore. My iphone will shut down pretty quick in those temps but I think most EVs have heat pumps now.

I was originally thinking that a 450km advertised range would probably be sufficient but given the above factors, that might have been too optimistic. 500km range might be an absolute minimum for what we want to do. And I suppose the other question is how will range in year 1 compare with year 7 for example. How much reduction can be expected?

I'd appreciate others thought on the matter.

I would recommend you to use Abetterrouteplanner to simulate your route. Try it with different EVs that fit your other requirement, like size and so on. You can then play around with all the parameters like extra load, road conditions, temperatures and battery degradation and see what cars will take you there with a resonable about of SOC left.

In my experience, the results you get from that site are very realistic, and I use whenever I'm planning long drives for vacations.

 

[Dabop]

I'm just pointing out that a lot more of these are needed. Lots of places have none. Too much headline grabbing about ultra-rapids being installed all over the place and not enough attention to the real needs of ordinary motorists.

They are just as much part of the solution as slow chargers- after all, even the Atto I am looking at takes about 20-25 mins to get 350km of charge into it (and its one of the older slower charging designs)- with those unable to have a home charger for whatever reason, and the average motorist doing only around 30km a day driving- you could literally in the Atto charge once a week while shopping and still have nearly another half a weeks worth of driving still available at the end of the week...

That's whats available now... today...

And there's only more going in every day...

I don't know about you- but my weekly shopping would see an Atto basically 'fully charged' long before I finished my shopping...

So those fast chargers could indeed be part of the solution for the problem you are describing....
Add in the majority of people having the potential to have a home charger, 'charge share' schemes like I showed above, slow street chargers, many employers putting in EV charge points as well as parking stations installing them as well, and the continuing rollout of fast chargers- you have to really struggle to point at 'I can't charge an EV' as a major issue...

 

[Filippo Lippi]

UK EV owners can temporarily avoid the increase in road tax with this one simple trick. Don't want to watch the video - declare SORN for an hour in March, then tax it again

 

[zooterkin]

UK EV owners can temporarily avoid the increase in road tax with this one simple trick. Don't want to watch the video - declare SORN for an hour in March, then tax it again

You don't need to SORN, just renew the tax. (I know, I did it.)

 

[Rolfe]

I did it last year. You don't have to SORN it at all! That's a pain because you have to wait several days to cancel the SORN unless you can visit a Post Office in person.

What you do is just claim not to have received a renewal letter, even if you have, and it will let you renew the tax early using the number on the car's registration document. It will warn you that you'll lose money (the remaining part of the validity of your existing £0 road tax), you say you're fine about that, and it's done. Only takes a few minutes and at no point do you not have the use of the car.

 

[The Don]

I did it last year. You don't have to SORN it at all! That's a pain because you have to wait several days to cancel the SORN unless you can visit a Post Office in person.

What you do is just claim not to have received a renewal letter, even if you have, and it will let you renew the tax early using the number on the car's registration document. It will warn you that you'll lose money (the remaining part of the validity of your existing £0 road tax), you say you're fine about that, and it's done. Only takes a few minutes and at no point do you not have the use of the car.

Mrs Don's vehicle excise duty is due on 1 April. She intends to renew a few days early - which will enable her to retain her renewal date and maximise her £0 period.

 

[Rolfe]

That's exactly what I did last year. I bought my car on 13th April 2023, and some time in March 2024 I renewed. But the thing she has to do is to claim that she hasn't had a renewal letter. Then the web site will ask her for the number on the car's registration document. Put that in, and waive the £0 loss of a month's road tax, and you're done. If you enter the number on the letter it will renew from 1st April and you're back where you started. Do it any time in March.

 

[acbytesla]

That's exactly what I did last year. I bought my car on 13th April 2023, and some time in March 2024 I renewed. But the thing she has to do is to claim that she hasn't had a renewal letter. Then the web site will ask her for the number on the car's registration document. Put that in, and waive the £0 loss of a month's road tax, and you're done. If you enter the number on the letter it will renew from 1st April and you're back where you started. Do it any time in March.

This is a loophole that somehow must be closed. Roads require maintenance. And that maintenance must be paid for. It has typically been paid for with gasoline taxes. But if everyone is driving EVs, then there will be a shortage of necessary funds and maintenance. There was a time when it made sense to ignore this to encourage early adopters. But we have always known the day when ignoring this was going to have to come to an end.

My State of Washington has legislators discussing how to tax by the mile.

 

[LiteBright]

Well, you are risking a yellow card bringing up EV's in the "assessing slopes" thread. But, so will I by answering.

Firstly, where are you? As you are no doubt aware, not all models and manufacturers are available in all markets.

Heat pumps? Not being fitted as standard in all markets. Here, in the UK, they don't seem to be that common. I've been focused on "the next Kia," it keeps me from spending money I can't afford, for a while, and heat pumps seem to be an option on the top spec in the range. I've read a number of discussions about them, and most people feel that the payback in saved electrons only kicks in around 80,000 miles. Where you are sounds colder than here. Much colder.

Battery degradation. 1 year? 98-99%? Batteries are faring much better than was feared even 8 years ago, and newer technologies are more robust. 7 years? I have 80-90% on my 7 year old Leaf 40kW. Batteries are lasting so well that some manufacturers (Renault?) are cutting the warranty period on them.

Thanks for the response. I'm in Canada and where I live, block heaters have been pretty standard on ICE vehicles for years so I am assuming that heat pumps will be standard issue on EVs sold here as well but its worth looking into. The coldest temp my outdoor station has recorded over the past 10 years is -37C.

 

[LiteBright]

That's still a tough ask and you're right to think about the effects of cold and loading and gradient. I keep reading tales of woe from people who didn't take any of that into account and got a nasty surprise when the real world asserted itself. There are cars that will do that, but they're in the "big and expensive" bracket. I would honestly wait another year or two, while keeping an eye on what's available. Prices are going to come down and more cars with that sort of capability will come on the market.

I think you are right. Waiting another year or two would likely allow me to buy something with a 600+ km range where I wouldn't have to worry about charging on a cottage trip. But circumstances are forcing me to buy this spring so I will have to deal with what's on the market now.

 

[Rolfe]

This is a loophole that somehow must be closed. Roads require maintenance. And that maintenance must be paid for. It has typically been paid for with gasoline taxes. But if everyone is driving EVs, then there will be a shortage of necessary funds and maintenance. There was a time when it made sense to ignore this to encourage early adopters. But we have always known the day when ignoring this was going to have to come to an end.

My State of Washington has legislators discussing how to tax by the mile.

It has already almost closed. This is merely owners of EVs postponing when they personally have to start paying the tax until the last minute. If you didn't do it last year (to pre-empt possible closure of the loophole) then do it this year, because the loophole is still there. It closes for good on 31st March. From March 2026 everyone will be paying. It's just that the people who were smart on this one won't start paying until then.

Anyway, these funds aren't ring-fenced. It's all general taxation anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

I think you are right. Waiting another year or two would likely allow me to buy something with a 600+ km range where I wouldn't have to worry about charging on a cottage trip. But circumstances are forcing me to buy this spring so I will have to deal with what's on the market now.

If you can't postpone a change of car, then look for something in the used car market that will come as close as you can to your ideal. That way you won't lose too much if you trade it in for something a lot more suitable in a couple of years. It's amazing what good cars there are without a huge mileage on them and still fairly recent, that come on to the second-hand market.