Does the bible directly shape US foreign policy?

[Matty1973]

I was reading this article and was quite shocked by this paragraph:

More worrying, the Republican embrace of Israel is fuelled in large part by the evangelical base, many of whom see the influx of Jews into the West Bank as a prerequisite for the doomsday scenario of End Times. If you want to hear what evangelical America thinks, ask Sarah Palin. “I believe that the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon, because that population of Israel is going to grow,” she said. “More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead. And I don’t think that the Obama administration has any right to tell Israel that the Jewish settlements cannot expand.”

Was Bush similarly influenced? Do evangelicals look forward to 'End Times'?

 

[Doctor Evil]

Was Bush similarly influenced? Do evangelicals look forward to 'End Times'?

No. You may be able to find some people with such weird beliefs. But I have not seen any evidence that they influenced US policy. In fact, all US administrations had the same positions regarding settlements. The most you can say about the Bush administration is that they promised to support territory exchanges that would keep some of the settlement blocks in Israel. (In return to the Israeli withdraw from Gaza, and the removal of four west bank settlements.) However, this was supposed to happen in a final peace deal, and Israel was supposed to compensate the Palestinians with land.

Bush middle east policy was based the usual politics. For instance, prior to 9/11 the administration considered the whole thing to be a hopeless mess, and so their policy was to ignore it as much as possible. (It was probably a mess, following the failure of the Camp David summit.) It is not difficult to explain also the changes in the Bush administration policies. I will do that if you are interested.

To summarise, they claim in the OP is exaggerated. Some people may believe that. In fact, I have met a few. But their beliefs have little to do with the policies of governments.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I was reading this article and was quite shocked by this paragraph:



Was Bush similarly influenced? Do evangelicals look forward to 'End Times'?

I differ with Dr Evil here. I think there is evidence Bush was at least influenced by the end times beliefs even if he wasn't a strong believer in the claim.

However, everyone in the Bush admin and the US military are not Evangelicals and they don't have overwhelming power in our government. Now they have even less. I doubt they were ever in the majority, but I wouldn't want to underestimate or rule out their influence entirely.

 

[Ziggurat]

I was reading this article and was quite shocked by this paragraph:

Funny, but the actual quote from Palin says nothing about end times or the bible. You really need to find a better source than excitable Andy. Especially about Palin. I've never seen a gay man so obsessed with a woman's vagina (not in this story, but in plenty of others).

 

[MG1962]

I just dont see. Bush could have triggered the events any time he wanted. He didn't, plain and simple. Obama is trying a different approach to the last 5 or so presidents I can think of

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I just dont see. Bush could have triggered the events any time he wanted. He didn't, plain and simple. Obama is trying a different approach to the last 5 or so presidents I can think of

I don't think you can say that Bush not taking [X] action meant he didn't believe in the end times or believe that God might use him to initiate the events.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Funny, but the actual quote from Palin says nothing about end times or the bible. You really need to find a better source than excitable Andy. Especially about Palin. I've never seen a gay man so obsessed with a woman's vagina (not in this story, but in plenty of others).

Oh boy, another pissing contest with Zig that I'm sure to win.

Here's the paragraph in question:

the Republican embrace of Israel is fuelled in large part by the evangelical base, many of whom see the influx of Jews into the West Bank as a prerequisite for the doomsday scenario of End Times. If you want to hear what evangelical America thinks, ask Sarah Palin. “I believe that the Jewish settlements should be allowed to be expanded upon, because that population of Israel is going to grow,” she said. “More and more Jewish people will be flocking to Israel in the days and weeks and months ahead. And I don’t think that the Obama administration has any right to tell Israel that the Jewish settlements cannot expand.”

Maybe there isn't a statement here that Palin believes she, rather than Bush, has been chosen by God to initiate the End Times. I doubt either of them had that detailed of a belief about starting a war between Israel and its enemies.

But there is plenty of evidence both Bush and Pain are sincere believers in the Evangelical version of Christianity. Within that religion is the belief about what is going to happen in the future. I would hope they are wise enough to refrain from acting on any conclusion the End Times are here or that the times can be brought about by pushing Israel into a war.

However, you would be hard pressed to say these beliefs did not influence how Bush, Palin, and many in the Republic* Party view Israel and the US's role in supporting Israel regardless of how horribly they oppress the Palestinians.

It's my belief Israel is its own worst enemy. If they would recognize you cannot oppress a population into submission, it goes against human nature, things might eventually change. But that is not likely to happen because Israel is not interested in giving up water and land rights.

Maybe, however, if we have a President who recognizes you have to separate the perpetrators of the violence from the rest of the population, and, you cannot punish the whole population and expect to quit creating new terrorists, we at least won't be part of the problem. Bush and Palin, viewing Israel as part of God's plan, would be seriously influenced by that version of reality.

 

[MG1962]

I don't think you can say that Bush not taking [X] action meant he didn't believe in the end times or believe that God might use him to initiate the events.

But you well know I cant prove a negative. All I have to work with are his actions. And in my mind they dont point to any belief in end times or what part he was going to play in them.

Regardless of opinion, most Christians who follow the trend towards the end times agree that a major component is the building of the third temple. That has not happened. So even if Bush truely believed he was to be the one. The lack of a temple is problamatic.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

But you well know I cant prove a negative. All I have to work with are his actions. And in my mind they dont point to any belief in end times or what part he was going to play in them.

Regardless of opinion, most Christians who follow the trend towards the end times agree that a major component is the building of the third temple. That has not happened. So even if Bush truely believed he was to be the one. The lack of a temple is problamatic.

I'm not asking you to prove any negatives. I'm saying your conclusion is not supported by the evidence you cite.

Bush has said he believes the Evangelical dogma. His charitable donations went to a church that uses donations mostly to proselytize. He verbalized his beliefs on a regular basis, he added lots of religion to the Federal government like creating a faith based web page on every department web site and so on.

I think there is more than sufficient evidence both Palin and Bush believe the Biblical prediction of the End Times as is in Evangelical dogma. Whether either of them believes the end times are near is another matter. But one cannot ignore how these two people's beliefs might influence Mid-East policies if/when they are in a position to affect those policies.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I remember seeing a Reagan quote about his beliefs about End Times and Israel, and I thought it was chilling. Anyone know what I'm talking about? (I'm sorry, I can't remember where I saw it or exactly what it said, but I think it said that he believed the End was coming in his lifetime and that it would be kicked off by a massive war in the Mideast.)

Now, whether or not his belief influenced any policy decisions is another issue, I suppose.

ETA: Apparently my memory isn't so great. I just found this:

In one of the most peculiar twists of the 1984 campaign, St. John's apocalyptic vision of the "End Times" emerged last week as a political issue. During the final presidential debate, Panelist Marvin Kalb of NBC asked Ronald Reagan, "Do you feel that we are now heading, perhaps, for some kind of nuclear Armageddon?" While Nancy Reagan gasped, "Oh, no!" to companions, the President answered that, yes, he had chatted with people about "the biblical prophecies of what would portend the coming of Armageddon and so forth, and the fact that a number of theologians for the last decade or more have believed that this was true, that the prophecies are coming together that portend that." But, he added soothingly, "no one knows whether those prophecies mean that Armageddon is a thousand years away or day after tomorrow. So I have never seriously warned and said we must plan according to Armageddon."

So he believed in the End Times, but not necessarily coming right away (though I wonder if he said otherwise to other audiences).


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,954482,00.html

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Sorry to stack on, but I found this on my favorite collection of doomsday prophecies:

Ronald Reagan, in a 1980 interview with Jim Bakker, said, "We may be the generation that sees Armageddon." Before that, in 1971, Reagan commented to James Mills regarding events in Libya, "For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ." Obviously, Reagan thought that the end would come SOON! And to think that a man with apocalyptic delusions like this had his finger on the nuclear button for 8 years. (Grosso p.8)

This may have been the original quote I was thinking of.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Regardless of opinion, most Christians who follow the trend towards the end times agree that a major component is the building of the third temple. That has not happened. So even if Bush truely believed he was to be the one. The lack of a temple is problamatic.

Really? You think people with such delusions can't explain away something like that? I think the most common theme espoused by believers in End Times prophecies is that the end is coming soon, and logic has nothing to do with it.

Read through the history of doomsday predictions, and I think you'll find there is no rationality to them at all.

 

[Doctor Evil]

I think there is more than sufficient evidence both Palin and Bush believe the Biblical prediction of the End Times as is in Evangelical dogma. Whether either of them believes the end times are near is another matter. But one cannot ignore how these two people's beliefs might influence Mid-East policies if/when they are in a position to affect those policies.

Bush was president for eight years. What, in your opinion where the steps he have taken which were influenced by such beliefs? Can you make a case?

 

[Ziggurat]

But there is plenty of evidence both Bush and Pain are sincere believers in the Evangelical version of Christianity. Within that religion is the belief about what is going to happen in the future.

Look, I don't give a damn what you think about Palin. You've clearly made up your mind. But whatever other evidence you might think exists to confirm your opinion, the fact remains that the quote that Sullivan put in that quote doesn't support his claim.

However, you would be hard pressed to say these beliefs did not influence how Bush, Palin, and many in the Republic* Party view Israel and the US's role in supporting Israel regardless of how horribly they oppress the Palestinians.

Evidently someone doesn't understand that the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. I don't have to prove that such beliefs didn't influence Bush, Palin, or anyone else, because I didn't make that claim. Sullivan made the claim that such beliefs DID influence them, and he didn't provide evidence of that. Nothing you've said even suggests otherwise. Logic fail, skeptic ginger. In fact, even if proof positive existed elsewhere that his claim was correct, the quote in question still doesn't back up Sullivan's claim.

It's my belief Israel is its own worst enemy.

That's nice, skeptic ginger. But this thread isn't about Israel, and my post wasn't about Israel. Go start your own thread if you want a soap box to rant about how terrible it is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Bush was president for eight years. What, in your opinion where the steps he have taken which were influenced by such beliefs? Can you make a case?

Jerry Falwell, a great proselytizer of the Rapture and the End Times spoke often of supporting Israel unconditionally because the war between Israel and their cultural enemies would be the sign the End Times had begun.

I don't know if that influenced Bush more than the political benefit of supporting Israel alone (because the Israeli's have a tremendous lobby machine), but I have read Bush's unconditional support for Israel was in keeping with his religious beliefs about the End Times.

It's hard for any US politician to go up against any Israeli policies that are not helpful to the peace process, so sorting out what caused which decision is not possible. But it is really unlikely that a US President would go against Israeli policies if that President had both the Israeli lobby and the End Times beliefs to deal with together.

I'll see if I can dig up anything more specific when I have more time. I'm not saying this was some major driving force for Bush. His unfortunate use of language such as "Crusade" was the result of his ignorant religious beliefs. And his religious beliefs were, in my opinion, very destructive when it came to breaking down the policy of separation of church and state.

I'm not one claiming Bush was actively trying to bring on the End Times. I think it is more likely he might have made a bad rash decision about escalating the MidEast wars given the right circumstances, and he might have made that rash decision believing it fit with the advice he imagined he got from his "higher father". But I didn't see Bush out there actively trying to make things worse than he made them by invading Iraq.

 

[MG1962]

I'm not asking you to prove any negatives. I'm saying your conclusion is not supported by the evidence you cite.

Bush has said he believes the Evangelical dogma. His charitable donations went to a church that uses donations mostly to proselytize. He verbalized his beliefs on a regular basis, he added lots of religion to the Federal government like creating a faith based web page on every department web site and so on.

I think there is more than sufficient evidence both Palin and Bush believe the Biblical prediction of the End Times as is in Evangelical dogma. Whether either of them believes the end times are near is another matter. But one cannot ignore how these two people's beliefs might influence Mid-East policies if/when they are in a position to affect those policies.

Then we will agree to disagree

 

[MG1962]

Really? You think people with such delusions can't explain away something like that? I think the most common theme espoused by believers in End Times prophecies is that the end is coming soon, and logic has nothing to do with it.

Read through the history of doomsday predictions, and I think you'll find there is no rationality to them at all.

This topic is dealing specifically with the battle of Armageddon

 

[Doctor Evil]

Jerry Falwell, a great proselytizer of the Rapture and the End Times spoke often of supporting Israel unconditionally because the war between Israel and their cultural enemies would be the sign the End Times had begun.

So? How this is supposed to be related to US policies?

 

[dafydd]

I remember George Bush senior saying this.
“No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So? How this is supposed to be related to US policies?

Falwell was the spokesperson for the Evangelical group which had a large influence on Bush.

Are you familiar with the Regency Law School scandal, for example? Bush fired over 150 qualified experienced lawyers in the DoJ and replaced them with religious ideologues who were inexperienced graduates from the unaccredited law school which Jerry Falwell ran along with the rest of the university, Liberty University.