Does the bible directly shape US foreign policy?

[ponderingturtle]

No. You may be able to find some people with such weird beliefs. But I have not seen any evidence that they influenced US policy. In fact, all US administrations had the same positions regarding settlements. The most you can say about the Bush administration is that they promised to support territory exchanges that would keep some of the settlement blocks in Israel. (In return to the Israeli withdraw from Gaza, and the removal of four west bank settlements.) However, this was supposed to happen in a final peace deal, and Israel was supposed to compensate the Palestinians with land.

And a lot of money for those settlements does come from america, and specifically evangelical christians.

Bush middle east policy was based the usual politics. For instance, prior to 9/11 the administration considered the whole thing to be a hopeless mess, and so their policy was to ignore it as much as possible. (It was probably a mess, following the failure of the Camp David summit.) It is not difficult to explain also the changes in the Bush administration policies. I will do that if you are interested.

I seem to remember something about a Roadmap, sure it detoured into crazyville but Bush was a part of that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Look, I don't give a damn what you think about Palin. You've clearly made up your mind. But whatever other evidence you might think exists to confirm your opinion, the fact remains that the quote that Sullivan put in that quote doesn't support his claim.

Well she makes a claim that seems to have no real basis in evidence, but if she draws her claim from religious dogma that would support it is open to question. My understanding of the demographics of the area has the jewish population is that it is not expanding as fast as others. So she seems to think that there will be some new massive emigration of jews to the area. That would seem to fit with prophecies better than the real world.

I think the effect this has had on policy is real, but not necessarily as direct as it is claimed.

 

[DC]

I remember George Bush senior saying this.
“No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”

and then they elect someone that even mention Atheists in his inaguration speech

 

[Doctor Evil]

Falwell was the spokesperson for the Evangelical group which had a large influence on Bush.

Are you familiar with the Regency Law School scandal, for example? Bush fired over 150 qualified experienced lawyers in the DoJ and replaced them with religious ideologues who were inexperienced graduates from the unaccredited law school which Jerry Falwell ran along with the rest of the university, Liberty University.

So your evidence is that Bush knows someone with such beliefs, instead of evidence that his policies were designed to promote such beliefs. That is not really impressive.

How about looking at the actual policies? The Bush administration had four different approaches to the I/P conflict in its eight years. As far as I can see the changes between approach were related to events, not to some preconceived religious belief. Furthermore, all of these approaches were never consistent with the policy of someone who wishes to bring the end of the world. We can discuss this if anyone is interested. (By the way, I am not implying that all of these approaches were free from mistakes. Far from it.)

So it is seems to me this kind of claim is not only unsupported. It is factually wrong. It also serves as an excuse to avoid discussing the actual policies.

 

[Doctor Evil]

And a lot of money for those settlements does come from america, and specifically evangelical christians.

Which is irrelevant to the subject of discussion, which is the policies of the US administration.

I seem to remember something about a Roadmap, sure it detoured into crazyville but Bush was a part of that.

Do you even know what was in the roadmap? Are you going to make a case that it was design to bring Armageddon? Or it was supposed to stabilize the situation and bring us closer to another round of peace talks?

 

[Ziggurat]

Well she makes a claim that seems to have no real basis in evidence,

Really? How would you know? Have you tried to find out about immigration to Israel?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1138110.html

but if she draws her claim from religious dogma that would support it is open to question.

That's a crap defense. It isn't enough to say Sullivan's hypothesis is not inconsistent with the quote. The quote must actually support the point he's trying to make. And it doesn't.

My understanding of the demographics of the area has the jewish population is that it is not expanding as fast as others.

Um... that's actually irrelevant.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So your evidence is that Bush knows someone with such beliefs, instead of evidence that his policies were designed to promote such beliefs. That is not really impressive.

How about looking at the actual policies? The Bush administration had four different approaches to the I/P conflict in its eight years. As far as I can see the changes between approach were related to events, not to some preconceived religious belief. Furthermore, all of these approaches were never consistent with the policy of someone who wishes to bring the end of the world. We can discuss this if anyone is interested. (By the way, I am not implying that all of these approaches were free from mistakes. Far from it.)

So it is seems to me this kind of claim is not only unsupported. It is factually wrong. It also serves as an excuse to avoid discussing the actual policies.

Did you ignore my whole post and just make up your own???????????


You seem to have missed this part: "Are you familiar with the Regency Law School scandal, for example? Bush fired over 150 qualified experienced lawyers in the DoJ and replaced them with religious ideologues who were inexperienced graduates from the unaccredited law school which Jerry Falwell ran along with the rest of the university, Liberty University."

How is filling the DoJ with religious ideologues not "evidence that [Bush's] policies were designed to promote such beliefs"

 

[ponderingturtle]

Which is irrelevant to the subject of discussion, which is the policies of the US administration.

And why shouldn't strong political groups in the US have some effect on foreign policy? It is rather like how Cubans in America are very responsible for policy is made about Cuba.

Do you even know what was in the roadmap? Are you going to make a case that it was design to bring Armageddon? Or it was supposed to stabilize the situation and bring us closer to another round of peace talks?

Oh goalpost moving. The original post was about how Bush ignored the middle east, so now when shown to be an incorrect statement it is being revised.

 

[Doctor Evil]

And why shouldn't strong political groups in the US have some effect on foreign policy? It is rather like how Cubans in America are very responsible for policy is made about Cuba.

And? People's opinions may change policy. But this is hardly the issue. The op asks whether belief in and times have influenced US policy. If you think this is so, make a case.

Now, stating that it is possible does not count as much of a case. Identifying specific policies driven by this goal would. So, which policies were driven by this goal?

Oh goalpost moving. The original post was about how Bush ignored the middle east, so now when shown to be an incorrect statement it is being revised.

Actually no. The original post was about how belief in end times may influence policy. I am still waiting for evidence on that. As I mentioned earlier, the Bush team initially ignored the middle east, but this had nothing to do with belief in end times. I had also stated, twice, that this was only their initial policy.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Did you ignore my whole post and just make up your own???????????


You seem to have missed this part: "Are you familiar with the Regency Law School scandal, for example? Bush fired over 150 qualified experienced lawyers in the DoJ and replaced them with religious ideologues who were inexperienced graduates from the unaccredited law school which Jerry Falwell ran along with the rest of the university, Liberty University."

How is filling the DoJ with religious ideologues not "evidence that [Bush's] policies were designed to promote such beliefs"

Lets see.

I do not know whether said people were religious ideologies. Can you make the case for that.

But as it happens this is completely irrelevant, since the relevant middle east policies are determined by the white house and state department.

I will repeat, can you make a case that the US middle east policies had the goal of bringing end times. If so, which policies. Do not change the subject.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Lets see.

I do not know whether said people were religious ideologies. Can you make the case for that.

You may want to bring yourself up to speed here on this old news.

Scandal puts spotlight on Christian law school - Grads influential in Justice Dept.

Regent has had no better friend than the Bush administration. Graduates of the law school have been among the most influential of the more than 150 Regent University alumni hired to federal government positions since President Bush took office in 2001, according to a university website.

One of those graduates is Monica Goodling , the former top aide to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales who is at the center of the storm over the firing of US attorneys. Goodling, who resigned on Friday, has become the face of Regent overnight -- and drawn a harsh spotlight to the administration's hiring of officials educated at smaller, conservative schools with sometimes marginal academic reputations.

Documents show that Goodling, who has asserted her Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying before Congress, was one of a handful of officials overseeing the firings. She helped install Timothy Griffin , the Karl Rove aide and her former boss at the Republican National Committee, as a replacement US attorney in Arkansas.

Correction: I've been saying the Law School was Falwell's when it was Pat Robertson's. Falwell did found Liberty University which has a law school and is in Lynchburg, Virginia. Regent Law School is in Virginia Beach. Guess I have my Evangelicals blurred.

But as it happens this is completely irrelevant, since the relevant middle east policies are determined by the white house and state department.

I will repeat, can you make a case that the US middle east policies had the goal of bringing end times. If so, which policies. Do not change the subject.

I told you, I wasn't making that case. I merely said Bush was a believer in a religion whose dogma includes end times beliefs and it is no secret his religious beliefs influenced many of his Presidential decisions. More specific than that, I have not made such claims.

 

[stilicho]

I remember George Bush senior saying this.
“No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”

That quote was invented by some guy in Chicago. He admits freely that there is no corroboration that the words were ever said or that the questions said to elicit them were ever spoken.

Fail.

 

[stilicho]

I merely said Bush was a believer in a religion whose dogma includes end times beliefs and it is no secret his religious beliefs influenced many of his Presidential decisions. More specific than that, I have not made such claims.

Isn't your current president a believer in a religion whose dogma includes end times beliefs?

Name one presidential decision that has ever been influenced purely by religious beliefs instead of by combined political and economic reasons. If you can't come up with any then Jesus will start eating babies again.