Merged Does CERN prove Einstein wrong?

[Anders Lindman]

A map is a scale two dimensional rendering of a three dimensional object. The arbitrary reference lines used to locate objects on a map can change - and often does or can be used independently of the picture beneath the grid lines.

I meant that a calendar is a kind of map too.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Measurements as actions can only happen in the now. Data about measurements can be accumulated of course. My hypothesis that the past is ever growing amount of information still stands.

Yes, I measured data from the Web. That's only indirect measurement, yet still those are results from measurements in the moment too.

Can't someone who lives near the VAB in Florida do the direct measurements? That would be pretty interesting. I think the building can be measured fairly accurately (the length of the larger side) from the road next to it, if it's a public road: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFR6z7YuDW4

 

[JayUtah]

No, I think the VAB is smaller than they claim and the most likely reason is that the Saturn V rocket is smaller than NASA says it is. And the reason Saturn V is smaller is that it was meant for the NRO to put military satellites into orbit, not for moon travel which was just a peaceful public front.

Okay, I guess I have to ask. Even granting for the sake of argument that there were no valid Moon missions, why couldn't they just have used the full-sized Saturn V rockets for the secret military payloads?

Why change the size? What practical reason, in the context of your fantasy world, is there to do that? I have to ask because this creates a risk for the military. If they say the rocket is one size, but it's really another size, then someone will probably figure that out and start asking questions. It seems that if you want to keep something secret, it would be a good idea to minimize the ways in which it could be found out. And in my mind that means publishing the actual size of a rocket that everyone can see.

 

[JayUtah]

Can't someone who lives near the VAB in Florida do the direct measurements?

Why would you believe them? You don't believe me about nuclear power plants or the validity of Apollo. Why would you believe someone who contradicted your belief about the VAB?

You're the one claiming these rockets and their assembly facilities are smaller than published. Your burden of proof.

 

[Greedo]

Okay, I guess I have to ask. Even granting for the sake of argument that there were no valid Moon missions, why couldn't they just have used the full-sized Saturn V rockets for the secret military payloads?

Why change the size? What practical reason, in the context of your fantasy world, is there to do that? I have to ask because this creates a risk for the military. If they say the rocket is one size, but it's really another size, then someone will probably figure that out and start asking questions. It seems that if you want to keep something secret, it would be a good idea to minimize the ways in which it could be found out. And in my mind that means publishing the actual size of a rocket that everyone can see.

I've asked the same thing three times. Don't expect an answer. It's what blows his theory to pieces.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Okay, I guess I have to ask. Even granting for the sake of argument that there were no valid Moon missions, why couldn't they just have used the full-sized Saturn V rockets for the secret military payloads?

Why change the size? What practical reason, in the context of your fantasy world, is there to do that? I have to ask because this creates a risk for the military. If they say the rocket is one size, but it's really another size, then someone will probably figure that out and start asking questions. It seems that if you want to keep something secret, it would be a good idea to minimize the ways in which it could be found out. And in my mind that means publishing the actual size of a rocket that everyone can see.

Surely the difficulty and cost to make a bigger rocket grows exponentially? Maybe if they wanted to put really large military equipment into orbit or if the NRO satellites were very clunky back then a rocket big as the Saturn V would have been needed.

A conspiracy theory I came to think of is that the Saturn V rockets that really were functioning were smaller than the larger mockup used for public display.

 

[JayUtah]

I've asked the same thing three times. Don't expect an answer. It's what blows his theory to pieces.

You mean he ran out of hogwash? I'd expect someone with as fertile an imagination as he to be able to make up something that's at least a little entertaining. He's already managed to give us Disney animatronic astronauts at the proper scale. "They made the Saturn V smaller than they said, just to give me something to discover 40 years later and blow the whistle." I mean, how boring is that? Can't we at least get a vague handwaving reference to a New World Order?

 

[Anders Lindman]

Why would you believe them? You don't believe me about nuclear power plants or the validity of Apollo. Why would you believe someone who contradicted your belief about the VAB?

You're the one claiming these rockets and their assembly facilities are smaller than published. Your burden of proof.

If they video filmed how they did the measurements then that would make it more difficult to fake.

Speaking about fake, don't these Transformers cars look like fake computer graphics inserted into a real video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnWC0tFXtcw



And listen to the suspicious noise added to the video clip.

 

[twinstead]

Surely the difficulty and cost to make a bigger rocket grows exponentially? Maybe if they wanted to put really large military equipment into orbit or if the NRO satellites were very clunky back then a rocket big as the Saturn V would have been needed.

So you have both eventualities covered: if the actual rocket is the same size as the one on public display, it's because they needed the larger rocket to haul their secret military equipment, and if it was smaller it was because a bigger one would have cost more....okay. Got it

A conspiracy theory I came to think of is that the Saturn V rockets that really were functioning were smaller than the larger mockup used for public display.

Do you have any evidence to support this conspiracy theory?

 

[JayUtah]

...

Surely the difficulty and cost to make a bigger rocket grows exponentially?

Depends on how much bigger. And don't call me Shirley.

Maybe if they wanted to put really large military equipment into orbit or if the NRO satellites were very clunky back then a rocket big as the Saturn V would have been needed.

I'm confused. What would be the point of building a smaller rocket then, and calling it the Saturn V. What about calling it the Saturn IV and publishing the actual dimensions of it so that no one gets suspicious?

A conspiracy theory I came to think of is that the Saturn V rockets that really were functioning were smaller than the larger mockup used for public display.

And we're right back to the same questions. The builders of the Saturn V say a Saturn V has certain dimensions. You say the real Saturn Vs that were flown secretly were actually smaller. But they were still called Saturn Vs. What would be the problem in publishing the actual dimensions of the actual rocket they actually built? Why pretend that the rocket you call the Saturn V is actually bigger?

And as long as we're on the "public display mockup" story, wouldn't the VAB and Launch Complex 39 then have to match the size of the published full-size mockup?

Your theory makes no sense, even for a conspiracy theory. I'm not going to embarrass you by asking if you have any facts to support it, since I know you don't. But I have to ask if you plan at any point to have any of your fairy tales actually make any sort of logical sense. I guess when you told people you really don't think things through, I had no idea how serious a problem that was for you.

 

[twinstead]

If they video filmed how they did the measurements then that would make it more difficult to fake.

Since when have you paid any attention to how easy or difficult something would be to fake when deciding it was faked? If you saw a video how they did the measurements do you really think you couldn't come up with a reason why it was faked, even if it made no sense to rational people at all?

 

[twinstead]

Depends on how much bigger. And don't call me Shirley.

Oh no he di'int!

 

[JayUtah]

...

If they video filmed how they did the measurements then that would make it more difficult to fake.

That's dodging the question. You're quite happy to call me a liar with absolutely no evidence to back up that accusation. What's to stop you from claiming that the video is fake if the measurements come back supporting a full-sized building?

You've demonstrated that you'll just ignore any fact that doesn't fit your belief. So what makes you think we care about your requests for further facts? Isn't that more likely just to be a dodge to keep you from being accountable? Aren't you just trying to perpetuate the debate by claiming more evidence is needed, rather than just admit you have absolutely no evidence that anything you've said here is true?

Evasive subject-changing noted.

 

[Roboramma]

You mean that a measurement is a process rather than a single snapshot? But if we by measurement mean when we get the result then that can only happen in the now. Even when a measurement is composed of separate sub-measurements each of those sub-measurements also only can be done in the now. The same with measurement of length. The same with any action of course. All actions happen in the now, never in the past, never in the future.

So? Every measurement is done here, never there. That doesn't mean that length isn't a dimension.

 

[Greedo]

...
A conspiracy theory I came to think of is that the Saturn V rockets that really were functioning were smaller than the larger mockup used for public display.

If you'd edit out the highlighted part, I'd believe you.

 

[Anders Lindman]

I'm confused. What would be the point of building a smaller rocket then, and calling it the Saturn V. What about calling it the Saturn IV and publishing the actual dimensions of it so that no one gets suspicious?

There are (at least) two conspiracy theory alternatives; 1) the Saturn V rockets were as large as they claim, or 2) the Saturn V rockets were in reality smaller than they claim. In both cases they could have been used for putting military equipment into space. I'm just hedging my bets here.

 

[Anders Lindman]

If they video filmed how they did the measurements then that would make it more difficult to fake.

That's dodging the question. You're quite happy to call me a liar with absolutely no evidence to back up that accusation. What's to stop you from claiming that the video is fake if the measurements come back supporting a full-sized building?

You've demonstrated that you'll just ignore any fact that doesn't fit your belief. So what makes you think we care about your requests for further facts? Isn't that more likely just to be a dodge to keep you from being accountable? Aren't you just trying to perpetuate the debate by claiming more evidence is needed, rather than just admit you have absolutely no evidence that anything you've said here is true?

Evasive subject-changing noted.

I have not called you a liar. And there could be many people doing these measurements and present different results.

I looked at several photos of the VAB and compared and it seems to be pretty much the correct size. So doing those measurements would probably only confirm that the size is correct, which is pretty boring from a conspiracy theory viewpoint.

 

[JayUtah]

There are (at least) two conspiracy theory alternatives; 1) the Saturn V rockets were as large as they claim, or 2) the Saturn V rockets were in reality smaller than they claim. In both cases they could have been used for putting military equipment into space. I'm just hedging my bets here.

So in other words, the actual dimensions of the Saturn V have nothing to do with whether there was a conspiracy. Correct?

 

[Greedo]

There are (at least) two conspiracy theory alternatives; 1) the Saturn V rockets were as large as they claim, or 2) the Saturn V rockets were in reality smaller than they claim. In both cases they could have been used for putting military equipment into space.

So in any case it has to be a conspiracy, huh?

I'm just hedging my bets here.

I just... wow. Gotta be troll, gotta be troll...

 

[JayUtah]

I have not called you a liar.

I said I have knowledgeably worked on nuclear power plants and know the principles by which they operate, and can attest to how they work. You have said that they are really zero-point energy plants instead. Please explain to everyone how you can profess that belief without calling me a liar.