Debate! What debate?

[~enigma~]

the INTERNET did not create the non Logical universe of the Conspiracy-truth movement, it just exposed it.

Isn't the 9/11 conspiracy only a living conspiracy because of the internet? I seriously doubt it would even have gotten as well known as the Kennedy woo if it wern't for the exchange of woo on the internet.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

"Throws NIST off?" You don't even know where the particles come from, but you claim that their existence invalidates a major part of NIST's report about WTC 1 & 2.

That's flawed logic.

From Apollo20's post.

The sustained high temperatures of the rubble pile proved to be more problematic. The NIST Report indicates that about 100 tonnes of burning material and smoldering “embers”, at 500 - 700° C, fell into the rubble pile when the Twin Towers collapsed.

The problem is the Nist reports do not point to any reaction or series of reactions that could have produced the amount of spiracles. Spiracles can be produced by friction but tend to gather other elements while still molten and become deformed, no longer spiracles.
They seem to only have been created by a process like off gassing of carbon dioxide, from steel do to heat a process that does not involve any solid particles that they can attach to.
It points to another natural reaction that NIST Left out of its findings, it is actually a mystery.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think that is a bit hard on NIST really. They were charged to determine the mechanism that initiated the collapse and from that determine better ways to build a safer building. It wasn't their charge to explain every little oddity and reaction that was occuring in the buildings during the fires.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Isn't the 9/11 conspiracy only a living conspiracy because of the internet? I seriously doubt it would even have gotten as well known as the Kennedy woo if it wern't for the exchange of woo on the internet.

~enigma~ Conspiracies are as old as time, they simply find new means to spread, a lie always spreads faster than the truth.
How many Knights do you think actually slay-ed dragons, conspiracies are born of the imagination of man, the Kennedy Woo is just one example there are literally thousands from before even radio was invented.
The Internet is basically a tool, and if properly used it is a tool to fight the conspiracy nuts because the more that people actually know the less is left to Imagine.
Imagine if loose change was spread by copied video tapes back in the 80s people would be copying the tape and passing it on all the time believing it and not be exposed to screw loose change and the valient effort to set the record strait and highlight the actual facts and truth.
Before the internet there was the Proctor and Gamble satanic cult fairytail, in the 80s tha cost Proctor and Gamble millions of dollars from lost sells do to a boycott of its product over a symbol used on them.
Conspiracies do not need the internet, the truth does because the truth is always slower to spread than a lie.

 

[PhantomWolf]

the Kennedy Woo is just one example there are literally thousands from before even radio was invented.

Kennedy was assassinated before Radio was invented.....

 

[~enigma~]

~enigma~ Conspiracies are as old as time, they simply find new means to spread, a lie always spreads faster than the truth.
How many Knights do you think actually slay-ed dragons, conspiracies are born of the imagination of man, the Kennedy Woo is just one example there are literally thousands from before even radio was invented.
The Internet is basically a tool, and if properly used it is a tool to fight the conspiracy nuts because the more that people actually know the less is left to Imagine.
Imagine if loose change was spread by copied video tapes back in the 80s people would be copying the tape and passing it on all the time believing it and not be exposed to screw loose change and the valient effort to set the record strait and highlight the actual facts and truth.
Before the internet there was the Proctor and Gamble satanic cult fairytail, in the 80s tha cost Proctor and Gamble millions of dollars from lost sells do to a boycott of its product over a symbol used on them.
Conspiracies do not need the internet, the truth does because the truth is always slower to spread than a lie.

Are you saying that the LC crowd would exist without the internet? Really? What about all the views on google video and youtube that LC has and what about the many woo that don't ascribe any worth to LC but to other internet video. Without the internet in this case there would be no internet video. Where is the none internet distributed stuff? The books came after the internet popularity so they would not have been distributed without the internet first. So again I ask, where are the non-internet videos?

 

[~enigma~]

Kennedy was assassinated before Radio was invented.....

If by radio you mean XM...yes

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think that is a bit hard on NIST really. They were charged to determine the mechanism that initiated the collapse and from that determine better ways to build a safer building. It wasn't their charge to explain every little oddity and reaction that was occuring in the buildings during the fires.

I agree on that point, but to Dr. Greening a specialist in this exact science this is not a little oddity, it is a bid Abnormality.
One I spotted early on , as did Dr. Greening.

I can not say how Dr. Greening feels but this I feel might be an important safety issue, that went UN addressed and if it is NIST might have failed in the one aspect that is most important making future buildings safer.

IF there is an unknown aspect that could have intensified the fires, it could save lives to know it, not only of occupants of the building but of fire fighters who's job it is to extinguish it.

If you think a building might fall, or is in danger of major fires you might try to put the fires out, or get the people out before it falls or the people, are roasted to toast.
That is why it is important to know as best we can as much about the fires as possible.
That was what a fire fighter told me, about what I was doing, in investigating as I have.

 

[Gravy]

Kennedy was assassinated before Radio was invented.....

C'mon, that's not what he said. Don't take cheap shots.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Kennedy was assassinated before Radio was invented.....

I meant Internet sorry I have been getting a barrage of emails from Cters after the Apollo20 posts on Jerf, it is nuts around here right now.
They are treating this as the greatest development of the movement so far, the defection of Dr. Greening, and debunking of Nist and they continue to press for information none of which I am giving them at this time.
Though my brain feels like it will explode, from the Woo in the emails.
It is because I think of the strawberry question, how can you hide your identity on the INTERNET when your the only Crazy Chainsaw in the world?

 

[~enigma~]

how can you hide your identity on the INTERNET when your the only Crazy Chainsaw in the world?

That's why i am an enigma...not easily found unless you unwrap the secret and then i am still a mystery

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Are you saying that the LC crowd would exist without the internet? Really? What about all the views on google video and youtube that LC has and what about the many woo that don't ascribe any worth to LC but to other internet video. Without the internet in this case there would be no internet video. Where is the none internet distributed stuff? The books came after the internet popularity so they would not have been distributed without the internet first. So again I ask, where are the non-internet videos?

Think about it the INTERNET is only a communication medium, did Jones town exist without the INTERNET?

Did the Anti Semite movement of the 20-30s exist without the INTERNET?

He who controls the information controls the masses.

I believe the term is propoganda, or yellow Journalism, ever read the national inquirer, where ever there is a story someone will try to sell it, the story being true or false it does not matter as long as it sells.

You can fool some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, But you can not fool all the people all of the time. A. Lincoln

 

[~enigma~]

did Jones town exist without the INTERNET?

Jonestown was a local or should I say limited.

Did the Anti Semite movement of the 20-30s exist without the INTERNET?

That is a really stupid comparison...anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years and frankly i am ashamed you even have the nerve to compare that to the 9/11 woo.

Now kindly answer my questions? Where would the LC crowd be without the internet?

 

[Foolmewunz]

Jonestown was a local or should I say limited.
That is a really stupid comparison...anti-semitism has been around for thousands of years and frankly i am ashamed you even have the nerve to compare that to the 9/11 woo.

Now kindly answer my questions? Where would the LC crowd be without the internet?

Where would the Kennedy conspiracies be without the internet? Oops, that's right there was no internet back then.

Was Kennedy's assassination any more earth-shattering than 9/11? About the same on the WTF scale, if you ask me.

Back then we didn't even have cable. There were a couple of large chains of independent TV stations, i.e. not affiliated with the networks, but even those would be considered MSM today. Yet the voices on the conspiracy side about Kennedy found an audience. There were mock trials on TV, pamphlets, magazines, books.....

All of those would be what the truth movement would be up to, today. It might have taken a little longer to spread the word, but like the Kennedy conspiracies, only a couple of years, and by now, five and a half years later, they could conceivably have the same following. Actually, with cable and all the various requirements to allow community access to public broadcasting (which didn't exist in the mid-60's), it would've probably spread faster than the Kennedy stuff, which was well into the popular media by late '66, IIRC.

 

[~enigma~]

Where would the Kennedy conspiracies be without the internet? Oops, that's right there was no internet back then.

Was Kennedy's assassination any more earth-shattering than 9/11? About the same on the WTF scale, if you ask me.

Back then we didn't even have cable. There were a couple of large chains of independent TV stations, i.e. not affiliated with the networks, but even those would be considered MSM today. Yet the voices on the conspiracy side about Kennedy found an audience. There were mock trials on TV, pamphlets, magazines, books.....

All of those would be what the truth movement would be up to, today. It might have taken a little longer to spread the word, but like the Kennedy conspiracies, only a couple of years, and by now, five and a half years later, they could conceivably have the same following. Actually, with cable and all the various requirements to allow community access to public broadcasting (which didn't exist in the mid-60's), it would've probably spread faster than the Kennedy stuff, which was well into the popular media by late '66, IIRC.

I will ask you what i asked Chainsaw, please show me the non-internet videos about the 9/11 conspiracy. There is a bigger non-internet following of the moon landing bs.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I will ask you what i asked Chainsaw, please show me the non-internet videos about the 9/11 conspiracy. There is a bigger non-internet following of the moon landing bs.

When you show me the articles on Kennedy written with stylus in cuneiform on clay tablets. They used print, television, radio.... BECAUSE IT WAS AVAILABLE.

I didn't say they haven't used the internet. They clearly have. But you were suggesting that the "movement" wouldn't have spread without the internet, and Crazy and I were both saying that there are plenty of other conspiracies that managed to do so, thus this one would've found its way.

 

[~enigma~]

When you show me the articles on Kennedy written with stylus in cuneiform on clay tablets. They used print, television, radio.... BECAUSE IT WAS AVAILABLE.

I didn't think you would answer.

I didn't say they haven't used the internet.

I never thought you did.

But you were suggesting that the "movement" wouldn't have spread without the internet, and Crazy and I were both saying that there are plenty of other conspiracies that managed to do so, thus this one would've found its way.

And I asked you to provide evidence which you refused to do. Are you claiming that without the internet LC would have been seen 3 million times?

 

[humingbrd]

I meant Internet sorry I have been getting a barrage of emails from Cters after the Apollo20 posts on Jerf, it is nuts around here right now.

Hang in there, Crazy. Despite some contentiousness, I've enjoyed the thread enormously. You managed to keep it informative and on topic, and I think we should all be grateful.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I didn't think you would answer.

I never thought you did.
And I asked you to provide evidence which you refused to do. Are you claiming that without the internet LC would have been seen 3 million times?

You're just being stubborn. How the Hell can anyone provide evidence of something that hasn't occurred? I provided logic and history of a similar event forty years ago. If the conspiracy theories on the Kennedy assassinaiton could spread in two and a half years through "antique" means, then so could have the 911 conspiracies. How many millions of dollars have been spent on JFK conspiracy crap?

They would have found their audience. It is a virtual certainty based on what we've seen from the past. They might not have found it so quickly, but they would have found it. And the non-internet videos and cd's nearly don't exist (although a whole lot of hard copies are being sold and distributed) simply because the internet was available to them. Just as Rush to Judgment wasn't written on papyrus because movable type and photo offset was availalbe in the 60s, Dylan and friends would have no reason to ignore a technology and medium that was available to them.

You'd be astonished. There was a surprising amount of commerce and communication prior to the WWW.

 

[~enigma~]

You're just being stubborn. How the Hell can anyone provide evidence of something that hasn't occurred?

Good point so why are you arguing that it has?

I provided logic and history of a similar event forty years ago. If the conspiracy theories on the Kennedy assassinaiton could spread in two and a half years through "antique" means, then so could have the 911 conspiracies.

Ok...tell me that the entire set of circumstances were similar. Circumstances meaning media coverage, duration of incident, availability of film of the event, etc. The US now is a MUCH smaller place because of the media and the internet. Do you deny that? Were the circumstances surrounding Kennedy the same as the circumstances surrounding 9/11?

They would have found their audience.

Yes and without the internet it would still be years before they had enough to fill an event as was claimed in Ann Arbor.

It is a virtual certainty based on what we've seen from the past. They might not have found it so quickly, but they would have found it.

Virtual does not mean sure thing or has the definition changed?

And the non-internet videos and cd's nearly don't exist (although a whole lot of hard copies are being sold and distributed) simply because the internet was available to them.

thank you for finally agreeing with me. What exactly are you arguing for, you still holding a grudge because of my to you when I first got here? I'm flattered