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Dancing in public while black

Thermal said:
Just a thought on the OP article: it identifies the dancer as a martial artist, which seems irrelevant to the story. Many traditional martial artists practice a set of choreographed moves called forms (or kata or hyungs) that They practice daily. They appear dance like, especially Capoeria (sp?) which is very acrobatic and dance like. Some styles even specifically call this dancing. I think it likely the guy was practicing his forms, rather than spontaneously getting his groove on.
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Take a look at the policemen's footage when they approach him, before they interrupt his practice, dance whatever. To me it doesn't quite look like dancing, but it also doesn't look like martial arts. I think people from the area describe it as dancing in the OP video.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Yea that is for the true heroes of the modern age, people who work in retail. They are the heroes we need, not these cops who will beat you are with in the first half shift in retail.

We need to give all people in retail guns and the right to shoot rude customers.
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Absolutely!
 
Lplus said:
It seems you are starting from the position that a cop will always escalate uncivil behaviour whereas I am starting from the position that he won't. USA vs UK perhaps.

Fair enough - my only comment on that is that I don't think you should have the right to be abusive to a cop without penalty, just as you shouldn't have the right to be abusive to anyone else without penalty, but I do think that the penalty for doing so should not be a bogus charge and should not put your life at risk.
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The goal of the police should be to de-escalate the situation, never to seek revenge for a perceived or even real abuse. If the abuse is real and substantial, so as to represent true assault or prevent the police from fulfilling their legitimate roles, than I presume it violated a law and the instigator can be legitimately arrested. But even then it should be done not in angry indignation by the police but in cool professionalism.

One should legally have a right to treat the police in a less-than-obsequious manner. The police may feel insulted or less than respected but they should shrug that off if they are acting professionally. Just as the rest of us must in similar situations. Respect is indeed earned; threats and punishment cannot generate true respect, but instead instill the opposite: seething hidden anger, fear, and resentment.
 
Giordano said:
The goal of the police should be to de-escalate the situation, never to seek revenge for a perceived or even real abuse. If the abuse is real and substantial, so as to represent true assault or prevent the police from fulfilling their legitimate roles, than I presume it violated a law and the instigator can be legitimately arrested. But even then it should be done not in angry indignation by the police but in cool professionalism.

One should legally have a right to treat the police in a less-than-obsequious manner. The police may feel insulted or less than respected but they should shrug that off if they are acting professionally. Just as the rest of us must in similar situations. Respect is indeed earned; threats and punishment cannot generate true respect, but instead instill the opposite: seething hidden anger, fear, and resentment.
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And I don't think anyone should have to shrug it off, because I don't think it should happen in the first place. Still - turn the other cheek eh?
 
Lplus said:
It seems you are starting from the position that a cop will always escalate uncivil behaviour whereas I am starting from the position that he won't. USA vs UK perhaps.

Fair enough - my only comment on that is that I don't think you should have the right to be abusive to a cop without penalty, just as you shouldn't have the right to be abusive to anyone else without penalty, but I do think that the penalty for doing so should not be a bogus charge and should not put your life at risk.
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"Always" would be putting it too strongly, and we do occasionally see videos and the like of fine and forbearing cops who calmly do their job despite abuse. Unfortunately, though, sometimes it's quite the opposite.

I do also think that there needs to be a distinction made somewhere between actionable abuse and simple impoliteness.
 
Lplus said:
And I don't think anyone should have to shrug it off, because I don't think it should happen in the first place. Still - turn the other cheek eh?
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In my experience it happens all the time to many people. Especially the more poor and less powerful. What choice is there? Punishing a lack of respect does not instill respect.

Turn the other cheek? A good idea.

Just to be clear I highly value treating everyone with respect and I dislike those who do not. But there are not many cures for being an entitled jerk.
 
Giordano said:
In my experience it happens all the time to many people. Especially the more poor and less powerful. What choice is there? Punishing a lack of respect does not instill respect.

Turn the other cheek? A good idea.

Just to be clear I highly value treating everyone with respect and I dislike those who do not. But there are not many cures for being an entitled jerk.
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I don't necessarily advocate being impolite to police (especially for non-white people who are that much more likely to suffer horrifying consequences) but, again, being approached by a police officer generally carries the implication that the person being approached is doing something wrong. That's a fundamentally impolite way to start an interaction. Unless it's immediately defused by the officer with an expression of concern for the citizen, the urge to tell the officer to **** off is totally understandable.
 
Babbylonian said:
I don't necessarily advocate being impolite to police (especially for non-white people who are that much more likely to suffer horrifying consequences) but, again, being approached by a police officer generally carries the implication that the person being approached is doing something wrong. That's a fundamentally impolite way to start an interaction. Unless it's immediately defused by the officer with an expression of concern for the citizen, the urge to tell the officer to **** off is totally understandable.
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My kids had lots of tales of their friends cars being searched by police while heading home from closing up late at their retail or restaurant jobs. Cop pulls them over for not coming to a complete stop at a yield sign or not having their blinker on long enough (or too long) or for driving too slowly for the conditions (aka the speed limit) as a pretext to search their car for drugs, alcohol or drunk or high friends. The cops never had a reason to search the car, always asked for permission and the kids always gave them permission. It was ********. The message was clear: be polite about us violating your constitutional rights or we will make your evening very uncomfortable.

I told my kids to never allow a search of their vehicle without me present or a warrant. So far as I know they stuck to that, but honestly it was a ****** position I put them in. The cop has all the power and they can make a long night longer if the kids refuse a search.

If it were the town I lived in I would have made a big stink of it after my kids moved off to college, but it was a neighboring town and we rarely go there now that the kids are off to school.
 
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cullennz said:
They got a call from some concerned citizen.

Personally have no issue with a couple of cops turning up to check it out, as if it happened to be an armed nutter in the street, people would be blaming them for not being vigilant if they didn't.

Then it turns into amateur hour from the cops and they don't even seem to care to check what the circumstances are.

Maybe they are just overhyped because of the protests. Or they could just be **** at their jobs.
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Check the date, it was before the protests.
It was May 23, before 9 a.m. on a Saturday.
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How about cops take a deep breath and consider the caller maybe was the one in the wrong. It could have saved Tamir Rice's life.


BTW, in my neighborhood if a person I did not recognize was dancing/exercising in the street near my house, I'd go ask him what was up. I'd be embarrassed to call the cops.
 
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Dr. Keith said:
My kids had lots of tales of their friends cars being searched by police while heading home from closing up late at their retail or restaurant jobs. Cop pulls them over for not coming to a complete stop at a yield sign or not having their blinker on long enough (or too long) or for driving too slowly for the conditions (aka the speed limit) as a pretext to search their car for drugs, alcohol or drunk or high friends. The cops never had a reason to search the car, always asked for permission and the kids always gave them permission. It was ********. The message was clear: be polite about us violating your constitutional rights or we will make your evening very uncomfortable.

I told my kids to never allow a search of their vehicle without me present or a warrant. So far as I know they stuck to that, but honestly it was a ****** position I put them in. The cop has all the power and they can make a long night longer if the kids refuse a search.

If it were the town I lived in I would have made a big stink of it after my kids moved off to college, but it was a neighboring town and we rarely go there now that the kids are off to school.
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Back i the day when I was a teen, one time cops pulled us over for "bald tires" a common excuse. We sat on the curb while they not only searched the car, they removed the back seat and put it on the sidewalk. When they were done and had found no drugs, they left with the seat still on the sidewalk. We drove home with the unbolted back seat. (This was before seat belts were much of a thing.)
 
Sherkeu said:
I do not live where you live.
I have lived a long time on this planet in many different countries and places, cities and suburbs, from LA to Germany to Australia, to Baltimore and back to Disneyland.
My experience is not yours evidently. Most people are good. The vast majority are, but not all.
Perhaps your kids are grown. You sound like my sister whose kids are much older than mine. She forgets. Good for her. It's sometimes taxing mentally with all the potential influences now. Her kids are done at Harvard now. Good for them. Mine are barely in middle school.
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I take care of an 8 yo, a 7 yo, and a 4 yo on a regular basis. Your children are overwhelmingly more likely to suffer harm from drivers who are reckless, inattentive, or impaired; or accidents with bikes, fire, water, firearms, and/or motor appliances and utilities. Even as far as crime victimization goes, your children are overwhelmingly more likely to suffer at the hands of family, friends, and acquaintances than from strangers. And very much less likely to be victimized by the mentally ill than from the neurotypical (considering the incidence of mental illness relative to other factors).

Dancing is not an indication of criminal intent or mental illness. Even within the purview of mental illness, dancing is not an indication of danger (FTR - you want to know what is? High stress, drug addiction, violent emotional reactions to hallucinations, paranoia targeted toward the potential victim)

Skeptic Ginger said:
BTW, in my neighborhood if a person I did not recognize was dancing/exercising in the street near my house, I'd go ask him what was up. I'd be embarrassed to call the cops.
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The very best solution for a situation where you are concerned and ignorant...is to remove the ignorance.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Back i the day when I was a teen, one time cops pulled us over for "bald tires" a common excuse. We sat on the curb while they not only searched the car, they removed the back seat and put it on the sidewalk. When they were done and had found no drugs, they left with the seat still on the sidewalk. We drove home with the unbolted back seat. (This was before seat belts were much of a thing.)
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The good thing is that you were polite with them as they trampled on your constitutional rights. Because being rude is a crime, while warrantless searches are just good policing.
 
Shadowdweller said:
The very best solution for a situation where you are concerned and ignorant...is to remove the ignorance.
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Indeed.

And remember always that no other citizen actually owes you an education. You can ask, but there is no obligation to answer.
 
Lplus said:
Not relevant to the point I was making.



Meadmaker reckons he should be able to tell the cop to get lost if he feels like it - ok fine, but perhaps he can expect the cop to get shirty if he does. It's called bad manners. If he doesn't respect the cop, why should the cop respect him? Simply saying the cop is paid to take the abuse and has lots of perks doesn't cut it. No wonder the cops hate joe public if that's the case.

Wouldn't you hate the public if you were told you had to take all their abuse and keep your mouth shut? Damn sure I would.
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Much of the work cops are supposed to do involves dealing with scared or angry or otherwise upset people. It is an integral part of the job they were hired to do. It is only to be expected that some of these people are going to be less than courteous.

If they are not prepared to accept this, and to respond with their best effort at disarming the situation regardless of the attitude of the people they are interacting with then they are in the wrong line of work.

So yes, simply saying that they are paid to do it actually does cut it. No one is forcing them to be cops. It's a job they sought out. They ought to be prepared to accept the consequences.
 
Sherkeu said:
I do not live where you live.
I have lived a long time on this planet in many different countries and places, cities and suburbs, from LA to Germany to Australia, to Baltimore and back to Disneyland.
My experience is not yours evidently. Most people are good. The vast majority are, but not all.
Perhaps your kids are grown. You sound like my sister whose kids are much older than mine. She forgets. Good for her. It's sometimes taxing mentally with all the potential influences now. Her kids are done at Harvard now. Good for them. Mine are barely in middle school.
I do NOT just allow any and all behavior just because it is not explicitly against the law. I protect my family from it. What was just silly eccentrics in the past are now unmedicated and untreated mental health patients who have been neglected and put through a revolving door or subpar treatments.
I would move from it if it were more endemic. I probably will just move from here soon in any case.
Mars sounds good about now.
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With the degree of paranoia you are expressing I'm not sure that even Mars would do the trick. You are carrying your certainty of danger around with you like a set of weights around your neck. There's no way to outrun that.
 
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