Dancing in public while black

[cullennz]

Used to be.

There are so many videos that have come to light now, it's going to be hard for cops to keep lying about their bad behavior.

They could have just stopped and talked to the guy, he wasn't doing anything. So what's with the cops and their bizarre suspicions? People have a hard time believing this stuff happens. They think there must have been more to it, the cops must have some reason.

The only reason they had from what it looks like is the guy didn't grovel appropriately enough for the cops' taste. Once they got off on their "stop resisting" mentality, the guy became a criminal. It didn't dawn on them to deescalate and simply listen to the man, he was dancing in the street, period, end of story.

Or the alternative, he was black, must be up to something.

This was a couple months ago. It got very little attention. Now we see what goes on all the time all over the country.

BRING OUT THE VIDEOS! People need to see.

They got a call from some concerned citizen.

Personally have no issue with a couple of cops turning up to check it out, as if it happened to be an armed nutter in the street, people would be blaming them for not being vigilant if they didn't.

Then it turns into amateur hour from the cops and they don't even seem to care to check what the circumstances are.

Maybe they are just overhyped because of the protests. Or they could just be **** at their jobs.

 

[Shadowdweller]

It is a bit bizarre though, isn't it? Who cares about the man's color or race?
He did not have a home on that street and he did not just stop a minute or two while on an exercise route. He was doing these dance performances on this particular residential street on a regular basis?( At least long enough that he was still doing it when the call was made and when the police car arrived.)

If that happened in front of my home on a regular basis, especially with young children in my home, I would be somewhat concerned for the man's mental health. It is not illegal, but certainly not normal behavior.

That is some seriously pathological judgment. According to witnesses, the guy lived nearby. He pointed out his parked vehicle to police.

 

[Sherkeu]

That is some seriously pathological judgment. According to witnesses, the guy lived nearby. He pointed out his parked vehicle to police.

And?
If I live near you and go drive and park in your neighborhood, then dance in front of your home every day...

Not weird?
Not any concern at all? Just tell your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day?
Are you for real?

Humans are flawed. We need to look out for it. Not constantly kneel down and surrender to prevent every possible bias. It becomes social order run amok.

 

[dann]

The people living there don't seem to be concerned. They know him.
It has been described as dancing, but apparently it was just some kind of exercise.
(I would have expected better dancing from a black guy, but that's probably just my racial bias. Most of the black guys I know are Cubans. )
And he may not live on that exact street, but he lives in the area, according to the people who are used to seeing him there.

And yes, telling "your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day" would be a very good idea in this case.

 

[Darat]

And?
If I live near you and go drive and park in your neighborhood, then dance in front of your home every day...

Not weird?
Not any concern at all? Just tell your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day?
Are you for real?

Humans are flawed. We need to look out for it. Not constantly kneel down and surrender to prevent every possible bias. It becomes social order run amok.

Certainly would be unusual and yes weird to me but nothing wrong with people doing unusual and weird things. I don't think the issue here is really with someone calling the police but what happened when they turned up.

All that should have happened is the police should have seen someone doing nothing illegal and said to him "Sorry sir but we had a call of someone acting in an unusual way, are you OK?", when he said "I'm fine just dancing". That should have been the end of the interaction – the police should have said "That's fine sir, have a nice day" and then followed their standard police procedures. In the UK I know that would have usually been a quick visit to reassure the person who made the initial call that everything is fine, that the person in the street is OK and doing nothing wrong. Then they would call back into control to say they were resuming their usual duties. The incident would be noted in their notebooks and transferred into the computer system when they returned to the station.

Everyone goes about their lives, everyone’s concerns allayed and everyone happy with the police.

 

[Sherkeu]

And yes, telling "your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day" would be a very good idea in this case.

If they are used to it, sure. Just like my neighbors, but I do not expect everyone to understand right away. This guy is definitely 'out of the norm' for whatever reason.

And I live in a cul-de-sac so anyone here doing that would get a call from me for sure!! I have had police here 3x already for fugitives running through from the oil property berm behind my house.
I hear the sirens or helicopter, I sense they might be coming through any minute.

So,no, my kids do NOT ignore strangers here as normal.
ymmv.
Must be nice to live in such a safe place.

 

[The Common Potato]

In the U.K. there isn’t an offence of “resisting arrest”, it always seem strange that it is in other countries and seems to be used as a general catch all.

It seems rather illogical to me, being arrested for resisting being arrested for resisting arrest.

(Obviously if you assault a police officer whilst they are arresting you for something else that is as all assaults are an illegal offence for which you can be arrested.)

We have section 5 of the public order act instead.

 

[Darat]

We have section 5 of the public order act instead.

And thankfully our courts have pretty much shutdown abuse of that by the police. The courts told the police that the likes of swearing at a police offcier, shouting at one and so on (when not in the commision of an offence) is not an offence in itself and the police need to grow up!

 

[Shadowdweller]

And?
If I live near you and go drive and park in your neighborhood, then dance in front of your home every day...

Not weird?
Not any concern at all? Just tell your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day?
Are you for real?

No, kid, not the slightest little bit weird, let alone concerning. I live miles away from City limits, off in the country. My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and yet on a regular basis I see people dancing, jogging, sitting on lawn chairs by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, strangers walking down the road barefoot and in bathing suits a mile from the nearest water source, people walking without lights (nor anywhere within miles of street lamps) in the middle of the night, having conversations with themselves by my residence. Get some basic experience with human beings.

 

[Sherkeu]

No, kid, not the slightest little bit weird, let alone concerning. I live miles away from City limits, off in the country. My nearest neighbor is a quarter of a mile away and yet on a regular basis I see people dancing, jogging, sitting on lawn chairs by the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, strangers walking down the road barefoot and in bathing suits a mile from the nearest water source, people walking without lights (nor anywhere within miles of street lamps) in the middle of the night, having conversations with themselves by my residence. Get some basic experience with human beings.

I do not live where you live.
I have lived a long time on this planet in many different countries and places, cities and suburbs, from LA to Germany to Australia, to Baltimore and back to Disneyland.
My experience is not yours evidently. Most people are good. The vast majority are, but not all.
Perhaps your kids are grown. You sound like my sister whose kids are much older than mine. She forgets. Good for her. It's sometimes taxing mentally with all the potential influences now. Her kids are done at Harvard now. Good for them. Mine are barely in middle school.
I do NOT just allow any and all behavior just because it is not explicitly against the law. I protect my family from it. What was just silly eccentrics in the past are now unmedicated and untreated mental health patients who have been neglected and put through a revolving door or subpar treatments.
I would move from it if it were more endemic. I probably will just move from here soon in any case.
Mars sounds good about now.

 

[Lplus]

I think you missed my point, or maybe I didn't make it well, or maybe you or I misread Meadmaker's point. Meadmaker reports that he answered the initial, legitimate question the cop asked, and did so civilly. He did not initiate abuse. When he said he had stopped to make a phone call, the transaction should have been complete. If the cop had any further suspicion it was incumbent on him to say what it was and why.

MM then reports that when asked for information that he was not actually obligated to provide, he was nice, but avers that he need not have been. At this point, I think he's right. Whether or not it's department policy to ask for license and whatnot, in order to make a report, it's a violation of a citizen's right to be left alone when doing nothing wrong, and it really is not any of the cop's business to take (e.t.a. perhaps better put "to require" ) that information. It's still nice to be nice, and prudent, and MM probably made the right decision, but if a citizen is not nice when asked for things he should not be asked for, I contend that there's no double standard.

Even if a cop asks very nicely "may I please act inappropriately and violate your rights" I don't think the refusal needs to be polite.

As for respect, I think that's a red herring. Sure, MM is permitted not to respect the cop, and the cop is just as permitted not to respect him - as a person. But he's a cop, and if his personal dislike of MM leads him to act illegally or improperly, that's a different story. There's a whole lot of difference between saying something on the order of "same to you buddy," and the all-too-often equation cops seem to make, that mutual respect means you say "yassuh boss" or I kill you.

Far more relevant than you think. The cop in entrusted with great powers, not the least of which is broad discretion with deadly force. As such, he needs to keep a cool professional demeanor far more than the average person. So yes, a higher degree of politeness is mandatory. You seriously can't see that a cop pissy because of his wife or coffee can be taken as a standalone threatening demeanor?




No, I wouldn't. Something about that 9mm at my hip would allow me to not be phased at some random's rudeness. Who cares? Many people don't like or trust cops, and for damn goid reasons. Respect is earned.

Not in the least.

I expect all people to be polite at all times. When I say "expect", what I mean is that being polite is the desired, ideal, behavior. So I expect the police to be polite to me. I expect me, and others, to be polite to policemen.

And if someone isn't polite, that isn't an excuse to hit someone, threaten someone, or commit any sort of act of violence against the impolite person.

It doesn't matter whether the impolite person is a cop, or someone being questioned by a cop. Being impolite is not a crime, and is not an excuse for violence or threats.

And being polite is not the same thing as being submissive.

What I'm getting from these is that you all feel you should be able to tell a cop to get lost if you think he's asking for more than the information you think he has a right to ask for - and he should put up and shut up because he's got a gun and "powers".

Really?

So much for the principle of treating others in the manner you would want them to treat you.

 

[Georg]

And?
If I live near you and go drive and park in your neighborhood, then dance in front of your home every day...

Not any concern at all?

Nope.

Just tell your kids to ignore the weird guy and go on about the day?

Yes, of course!
Why not?
Are dancing/exercising people known to be dangerous?

Humans are flawed. We need to look out for it. Not constantly kneel down and surrender to prevent every possible bias. It becomes social order run amok.

Sounds a bit paranoid to me.

By the way, my daughter is 14.

ETA: talked to her about this.
She said if he´s good she´d go out and ask him if he would be so nice to show her some of his dance moves.
And I would not mind.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Assaulting a police officer in most places while being arrested does you no favours.

Tbf it is virtually the same thing as resisting arrest and just worded differently.

Still police word against yours

Assaulting a cop would almost be certainly be charged as such in the US as that, not as resisting. Punching a cop in the face during an arrest is almost certainly not going to be charged as resisting arrest.

Resisting arrest can be as simple as not complying with officer's orders during an arrest or passively resisting being handcuffed.

A resisting arrest charge with no other crime is one of the many hallmarks of inappropriate policing in the US. It's one way that cops punish people who haven't really done anything wrong.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have often wondered how much cooperation you are required to give to police, and I really don't know the answer.

Mostly this depends on your State. In general if you are not driving then you only need to give your name and address. Some States might require ID or more identifying information. If you are driving then Licence, Registration, and Insurance can be asked for. It's usually best to check what the local State law requires.

Anything beyond these require the Officer to have a reasonable suspicion of a crime having been committed, and they must be able to articulate that suspicion. If they can articulate a reasonable suspicion of a crime then they do have the ability to detain you and question you further about your activities.

One thing that Freemen on the Land do get right is that if you have been stopped by a cop and you don't wish to cooperate voluntarily you can ask if you are being detained, and if they say yes, then you can ask them what crime they believe has been committed for them to do so. If they can't tell you, then they cannot detain you.

If they arrest you then they must explain why they are arresting you, what law you have broken for the arrest to occur, through there are a few exceptions such as it not be viable to do so at the time, of the breaking of the law was obvious (e.g. you just shot someone in front of the cop.)

Final bits of advice:

* Unless they have a warrant or have arrested you, the answer to "Can I check your pockets/phone/bag/car?" is always "No."

* The answer to "Do you know why I stopped you?" or "Do you know how fast you were going?" is always, "No I don't officer, please tell me."

* The answer to "We want to ask you some questions..." is always "I want a lawyer."

 

[Babbylonian]

What I'm getting from these is that you all feel you should be able to tell a cop to get lost if you think he's asking for more than the information you think he has a right to ask for - and he should put up and shut up because he's got a gun and "powers".

Really?

So much for the principle of treating others in the manner you would want them to treat you.

Yes, really. What the **** good is "freedom" if we have to answer questions of government representatives whenever they choose?

We're not talking about a random person stopping and engaging us in conversation. We're also not talking about a police officer stopping to ask if we need any help (a totally reasonable and nice thing if they find someone pulled over on the side of the road).

We're talking about cops with guns and the powers of arrest stopping us, asking what we're doing, getting the answer of "this perfectly legal thing, " and then insisting on continuing the questioning as if they're not satisfied and as if we're required to indulge their unearned suspicion.

The bottom line is that contempt of cop - which as a profession they've more than earned in the US - is not a crime and nobody should be hassled at a cop's whim.

 

[bruto]

What I'm getting from these is that you all feel you should be able to tell a cop to get lost if you think he's asking for more than the information you think he has a right to ask for - and he should put up and shut up because he's got a gun and "powers".

Really?

So much for the principle of treating others in the manner you would want them to treat you.

I would expect a policeman to treat me with a reasonable courtesy and also with a modicum of rationality and legality, and I, like MM, would also expect to reciprocate. The question here is not what is appropriate or desirable, but what is permissible or tolerable. I should be able to be discourteous to a cop and not expect that it will result in arrest for a bogus charge, assault or death.

The news, recent and not so recent, abounds with instances in which police have over-reacted with their presumption of unquestionable authority, and in some cases used that automatic presumption to manipulate people into a situation where any action by their victims would constitute such a violation. Kick a surrendering man from behind and accuse him of noncompliance for complaining.

Perhaps more is being made of this that either party intended, but what it sounds as if you're saying is that a policeman's special position entitles him to respect even at the cost of people's rights, if not of their very lives.

My position, once again, is not about how people ought to behave to each other, but about whether the police have some special status that allows them to escalate uncivil behavior toward them into a crime.

 

[Thermal]

Just a thought on the OP article: it identifies the dancer as a martial artist, which seems irrelevant to the story. Many traditional martial artists practice a set of choreographed moves called forms (or kata or hyungs) that They practice daily. They appear dance like, especially Capoeria (sp?) which is very acrobatic and dance like. Some styles even specifically call this dancing. I think it likely the guy was practicing his forms, rather than spontaneously getting his groove on.

 

[Meadmaker]

If they are used to it, sure. Just like my neighbors, but I do not expect everyone to understand right away. This guy is definitely 'out of the norm' for whatever reason.

And I live in a cul-de-sac so anyone here doing that would get a call from me for sure!! I have had police here 3x already for fugitives running through from the oil property berm behind my house.
I hear the sirens or helicopter, I sense they might be coming through any minute.

So,no, my kids do NOT ignore strangers here as normal.
ymmv.
Must be nice to live in such a safe place.

I think the issue is not with, or at least mostly not with, the initial call to the police. While it wasn't necessary, I don't think many people would say that calling the police was an awful thing. I called it "stupid", and possibly racist, but even that's a hasty judgement based on incomplete knowledge. Depending on exactly where or how he was "dancing", I can see how there might be suspicion by whoever called it in.

The issue was the attitude of the cops once they got there. They immediately came on with the "you are detained", and no explanation other than "you are dancing in the street". They eventually arrested him without charge, and then charged him with resisting arrest.

That happens a lot these days, and it's wrong.

 

[Lplus]

I would expect a policeman to treat me with a reasonable courtesy and also with a modicum of rationality and legality, and I, like MM, would also expect to reciprocate. The question here is not what is appropriate or desirable, but what is permissible or tolerable. I should be able to be discourteous to a cop and not expect that it will result in arrest for a bogus charge, assault or death.

The news, recent and not so recent, abounds with instances in which police have over-reacted with their presumption of unquestionable authority, and in some cases used that automatic presumption to manipulate people into a situation where any action by their victims would constitute such a violation. Kick a surrendering man from behind and accuse him of noncompliance for complaining.

Perhaps more is being made of this that either party intended, but what it sounds as if you're saying is that a policeman's special position entitles him to respect even at the cost of people's rights, if not of their very lives.

My position, once again, is not about how people ought to behave to each other, but about whether the police have some special status that allows them to escalate uncivil behavior toward them into a crime.

It seems you are starting from the position that a cop will always escalate uncivil behaviour whereas I am starting from the position that he won't. USA vs UK perhaps.

Fair enough - my only comment on that is that I don't think you should have the right to be abusive to a cop without penalty, just as you shouldn't have the right to be abusive to anyone else without penalty, but I do think that the penalty for doing so should not be a bogus charge and should not put your life at risk.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Meadmaker reckons he should be able to tell the cop to get lost if he feels like it - ok fine, but perhaps he can expect the cop to get shirty if he does. It's called bad manners. If he doesn't respect the cop, why should the cop respect him? Simply saying the cop is paid to take the abuse and has lots of perks doesn't cut it. No wonder the cops hate joe public if that's the case.

Wouldn't you hate the public if you were told you had to take all their abuse and keep your mouth shut? Damn sure I would.

Yea that is for the true heroes of the modern age, people who work in retail. They are the heroes we need, not these cops who will beat you are with in the first half shift in retail.

We need to give all people in retail guns and the right to shoot rude customers.