Crop circle debunking help needed

[Akhenaten]

The middle part of the "M" is missing, there's not enough room for capitol "T"'s, and why isn't the "N" capitolized instead of a tall "n", no 100 lbs. from me either, and as far as the "harmless", I haven't checked to see if it grew back like the authentic. Heres a link with a pic better describing what I'm saying. Scroll down to the image, it's already flipped and mirror reversed.


http://www.richardbird.info/CROP CIRCLES/field_guide review.htm#Note 2

As has already been explained to you, the design only shows the bottom half of the letters, it's 'capital' and 'capitalised', the abbreviation for pounds (currency) is £ and your comment "grew back like the authentic" is gibberish.

It's possible, chuck, that you aren't the best person to be trying to interpret these things.

 

[Aepervius]

Interesting posts Stray Cat. You seem like the resident expert on crop circle making. How Many crop circles have you made and how many people do you know that make crop circles?

Are there any other people who make crop circles on here, or is it just you?

AS said a bit above, I used to make some of the simplest one (smiling faces, disney outline, geometricaly spaced form, nothing too hard), for fun, with roleplaying friends, but only with the agreement of the farmer, and only during day. That was , what, 2 1/2 decade ago. And as far as I can tell nobody ever saw one of them, and we never figured how to take a photo. That was 20km north of compiegne a town north of Paris. Out of privacy reason I won't say more.

Nowaday I would not bother doing one, but I can tell you point by point how to do the one we did if you wish.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Maybe:

• It would spoil the whole joke.
  
  
• It didn't actually mean anything.
  
  
• It was such a non-event that the perps were unaware of the fuss.
  
  
• The fine was £110.
  
  
• I don't know and neither do you.

You forgot "the mothership had already returned home".

 

[chuck4842]

It's possible, chuck, that you aren't the best person to be trying to interpret these things.

Ya think? lol! At least I know a helicopter when I see one.
I'm just saying maybe sceptics aren't the best interpreters either. It really is hard to sort thru some of the unnecessary technical jargon that the know it alls throw at a guy, and still try to keep a personal opinion. There are plenty of intelligent scientist and specialist that declare the phenomenon unsolved. I'm wary of the ET theory (thx to y'all), I'm extremely wary of Meadens weather or natural possibility. So, excuse me for coming to the only place I knew that could give me the best scientific rational possibilities available on the net. Even wiki failed me with false info, to me it just makes it all the more fascinating.

 

[Akhenaten]

Ya think? lol! At least I know a helicopter when I see one.

Helicopters???

I don't know where you're going with that, chuck, but I'm an aicraft maintenance engineer myself and spent half my life pulling helicopters apart and putting them back together, so your ability to recognise one doesn't exactly overawe me. Soz.

I'm just saying maybe sceptics aren't the best interpreters either.

You're in luck. I'm not a sceptic.

It really is hard to sort thru some of the unnecessary technical jargon that the know it alls throw at a guy, and still try to keep a personal opinion.

You forgot the "create a false dilemma and complain about that" option. It's very popular.

There are plenty of intelligent scientist and specialist that declare the phenomenon unsolved.

Looking forward to reading what they have to say. When will you be posting the links?

I'm wary of the ET theory (thx to y'all), I'm extremely wary of Meadens weather or natural possibility. So, excuse me for coming to the only place I knew that could give me the best scientific rational possibilities available on the net. Even wiki failed me with false info, to me it just makes it all the more fascinating.

So much conflict in one short paragraph.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

So, chuck, why did you bring up the "Meaden Talks ***" non-circle as an example of a hoax that was more harmful than Project Alpha?

 

[chuck4842]

So, chuck, why did you bring up the "Meaden Talks ***" non-circle as an example of a hoax that was more harmful than Project Alpha?

I don't have a clue what you're on about or what Project Alpha is but I'll try and google it ok? Gimme a sec, I have a regular job too. Meanwhile...

Encounters found a case in Germany where some ancient celtic inscribed plates were found in a formation. Made of precious metals like bronze and silver. Where do the hoaxters keep these undiscovered relics, and why did they just throw them away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxY98buBw2o

Ok , Project Alpha was a great hoax that JR revealed. I haven't seen solid evidence the circlemakers can make the complex formations that led to the discovery of the fifth mathematical theorem, bent but not broken nodes, signs of heat with molten iron,

http://www.xs4all.nl/~icircle/dcircles/Levengood_MeteoricIron.htm

Euclidean Geometry & Diatonic Ratios, I don't remember saying the "Meadentalks****" formation was a harmful hoax

Edited by LashL: 

To properly mask profanity.

 

[Stray Cat]

Ya think? lol! At least I know a helicopter when I see one.
I'm just saying maybe sceptics aren't the best interpreters either. It really is hard to sort thru some of the unnecessary technical jargon that the know it alls throw at a guy,

Wow, and you think that the work of Levengood, Hasselhoff and Hawkins are not full of unnecessary technical jargon. Designed specifically to create a pseudo-intellectual fog that disguises the actual simplicity of the geometric designs and natural plants recovery mechanisms?

I hope you don't find my posts to be full of technical jargon. I do try and explain these things as simply as possible without introducing word salad.

There are plenty of intelligent scientist and specialist that declare the phenomenon unsolved.

Even intelligent people are not immune from believing in nonsense Chuck.

I'm wary of the ET theory (thx to y'all), I'm extremely wary of Meadens weather or natural possibility. So, excuse me for coming to the only place I knew that could give me the best scientific rational possibilities available on the net.

I give you credit for asking the questions and so far, you do seem to be at least taking some notice of the information offered to you.

 

[zooterkin]

I don't have a clue what you're on about or what Project Alpha is but I'll try and google it ok?
...

Ok , Project Alpha was a great hoax that JR revealed.

Look again, it's a hoax which he perpetrated

 

[Stray Cat]

I don't have a clue what you're on about or what Project Alpha is but I'll try and google it ok? Gimme a sec, I have a regular job too. Meanwhile...

Encounters found a case in Germany where some ancient celtic inscribed plates were found in a formation. Made of precious metals like bronze and silver. Where do the hoaxters keep these undiscovered relics, and why did they just throw them away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxY98buBw2o

It was a hoax Chuck. These ultra important (Grassdorf) plates were dug up by the bloke who had planted them, they made a few media appearances and were never seen again. Explained away by the introduction of some anonymous wealthy industrialist who apparently paid a fortune for them (but no paper trail of this money has ever been found). No paper trail of any lab report has even been shown, the farmer who's land they were found on never made any money from the sale of the treasure that was found on his land, and the government never received any 'Treasure Trove' revenue (Sachsenspiegel: Any treasure that lies in the ground deeper than a plough reaches belongs to the state).

 

[Stray Cat]

I haven't seen solid evidence the circlemakers can make the complex formations that led to the discovery of the fifth mathematical theorem,

Hawkins found the 5th 'theorem', the circlemakers needed no knowledge of it to be able to produce the formation it was found in.

bent but not broken nodes,

As already explained, bent nodes are found in known man made crop circles (commissioned) and natural lodging. The discovery of bent nodes is not an indicator of the provenance of a crop circle but the natural mechanism of plant recovery after being knocked over.

signs of heat with molten iron,

As already explained, the signs of heat and molten iron were misidentifications of things based upon the false assumption that heat is somehow involved in the production of some crop circles.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~icircle/dcircles/Levengood_MeteoricIron.htm

Already explained. http://www.xstreamscience.org/H_Glaze/h_glaze_0.htm

 

[Angel Love]

It was a hoax Chuck. These ultra important (Grassdorf) plates were dug up by the bloke who had planted them, they made a few media appearances and were never seen again.

Is that correct? As I remember nobody actually knows who planted them and what happened to them in the end.

 

[Stray Cat]

Is that correct? As I remember nobody actually knows who planted them and what happened to them in the end.

Then why not do what other people have done. Try to positively identify the man who found them (or anyone involved in the story at all) and ask them?

You will find no verifiable sources for anything connected to this story, because it is a hoax, there is no paper trail for lab reports, no paper trail for financial arrangements, no paper trail for the (required by German Law) form filling and due processes of declaring "Sachsenspiegel" nor any ruling in the German files of an exemption... nothing, nada, nill.

The man who dug up the plates dug in three places and found three plates, he then disappeared and so did his plates... never to be seen again, leaving no trace that he'd ever been there or that he'd ever found three plates. Except for a few news and media stories that give no detail...

You'd think that if these plates were the definitive proof that crop circle researchers were looking for, that at least one of them would have followed up on the story in great detail?.... Mmmmm. maybe they did and found what I've found... It's hoax. I'd provide you with the reams of evidence I have only there isn't any... and that's the point, there is no paper trail and with something like this if it were true, there would be something other than an unverified story.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I don't remember saying the "Meadentalks****" formation was a harmful hoax

Blimey, I hate having to do the "going back over the thread and repeating what's already been posted" thing. It's tedious in the extreme, and I'd much rather that people simply made coherent arguments that they could keep track of in the first place.

But, here, one time and one time only I'll do it:

The whole reason I joined JREF was because of JR's disgust of hoaxsters.

Um, James Randi has been a "hoaxter" more than once. Research "Project Alpha".

"In July 1991, an American created the message 'Talk To Us' in a field near Alton Barnes, Wiltshire. A week later near Milk Hill, a few miles away, the circle makers created a formation that appeared to consist of runic letters perhaps in response to the original message. Numerous interpretations were offered for the cryptic message but none of them made sense. Using Mawson's 'Dictionary of Foreign Terms,' Hawkins reviewed 18,000 common phrases in 42 languages and found the that the Latin word 'Oppono' (I oppose) fit best in the spaces provided for the first word in the two latter runic phrase and he suggested 'astos' (acts of cunning or craft) for the second word: This phrase possibly translated to Opposition to fraud, whyich may have been a reference to the numerous hoaxed crop circles appearing on the English countryside. Hawkins published his solution in The Cereologist 3. The magazine offered 100 pounds for a more plausible interpretation but the prize was never claimed. This strange episode further convinced Hawkins that the cirle makers displayed intelligence."- wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Hawkins

I'm attempting to show the difference between a harmless prank, and what the "hoaxters" are doing. It took twelve scholars to agree with Hawkins translation.

Why didn't the hoaxsters come forward and claim the 100 pounds?

You brought up the "Meaden Talks ****" formation as a direct counter-example to Project Alpha, to show how it was a harmful hoax, as opposed to Project Alpha which wasn't.

I thought it was a poor argument in the first place, especially as you couldn't say what harm had been done by the example you yourself brought up to show a harmful hoax, but now it turns out that you brought up this example while not even knowing what the hoax you were offering it as a counter-example to was. What your subsequent posts have essentially said is that, despite being presented as a counter-argument to my point, that even you think that it's utterly irrelevant, and that furthermore you didn't even take the time to try to understand my point (which, despite your protestations of time, would have taken 10 seconds on Wikipedia to educate yourself on - literally, the first sentence of the article would have told you all you needed to know) before attempting to rebut it with your irrelevant counter-argument.

If you're truly interested in learning the truth about things, as you claim you are, then you'll need to spend a bit more time thinking and a little less time knee-jerking.

 

[23_Tauri]

Sceptic Tank, when chucky said "I'm attempting to show the difference between a harmless prank, and what the "hoaxters" are doing" I didn't know what he was on about either. I assumed that he posted the - ahem - runic script as an example of a 'genuine' aka non human made, crop circle, that contained an important message for mankind. This message told us that what the hoaxsters (sic) were doing was unacceptable, so unacceptable in fact that an alien race of advanced beings wrote a cryptic message in a corn field in order that we would know so.

So, I interpreted that chucky was trying to tell us that making crop circles was more than a harmless prank because space aliens considered it very naughty behaviour. Rly.

There are plenty of intelligent scientist and specialist that declare the phenomenon unsolved.

Yes there are. As someone who until relatively recently thought there was a paranormal mystery to solve then I can appreciate why intelligent people (I consider myself intelligent, even though I am the sixth born - see sibling order thread) cling to the idea that there's a non-human force at work in the fields.

I am good friends with a well-known crop circle researcher (writer of books and giver of lectures) and he's not lacking in intelligence. What he does engage in though, IMO, is wilful ignorance. He doesn't want to accept that there really isn't an unknown entity out there in the fields. That's got nothing to do with formal training, education, skills obtained or even experience. It's just the way human beings are when we muddle our personal beliefs with a propensity to avoid looking at the hard evidence.

 

[Angel Love]

Then why not do what other people have done. Try to positively identify the man who found them (or anyone involved in the story at all) and ask them?

Are you saying I should do that? I assumed as you seem to know so much about the case that you had a source to cite for your conclusion that the same man buried and dug the plates up?

I am under no illusions that these plates were placed and lost by people, call it a hoax if you want, but I'd call it an extension of circle making rather like the Fe3 Project

 

[Aepervius]

"5th theorem" , well if you are speaking of this : http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/ilyes/ilyes16.html
I see nothing which could not be deduced from basic euclidian geometry, a piece of paper, and a bit of vector geometry.

 

[Stray Cat]

Are you saying I should do that? I assumed as you seem to know so much about the case that you had a source to cite for your conclusion that the same man buried and dug the plates up?

The thing about "knowing so much the case" is more that I have looked into it personally and not got all my information from clickable links.
As I have found out there is no paper trail, I can not point to anything because there really is nothing to point to.

I am under no illusions that these plates were placed and lost by people, call it a hoax if you want, but I'd call it an extension of circle making rather like the Fe3 Project

I too call it an extension of 'croppydom' in general and usually I wouldn't call 'hoax', but in this particular case an action was intentionally done and reported by the people responsible for 'planting' the fake plates in order to claim that something was going on that wasn't. It's really not like Rob's Fe3 Project which would have been overlooked if other people had not found what he had planted and come to their own conclusions.
I hope this makes sense now.

 

[chuck4842]

It was a hoax Chuck. These ultra important (Grassdorf) plates were dug up by the bloke who had planted them, they made a few media appearances and were never seen again. Explained away by the introduction of some anonymous wealthy industrialist who apparently paid a fortune for them (but no paper trail of this money has ever been found). No paper trail of any lab report has even been shown, the farmer who's land they were found on never made any money from the sale of the treasure that was found on his land, and the government never received any 'Treasure Trove' revenue (Sachsenspiegel: Any treasure that lies in the ground deeper than a plough reaches belongs to the state).

I guess I'll take your word on that. After all, "Explained away" is all I can find here, sorry for wasting your time. Didn't expect such a simple explanation,,,...thanks

 

[chuck4842]

I don't have a clue what you're on about or what Project Alpha is but I'll try and google it ok? Gimme a sec, I have a regular job too. Meanwhile...

Encounters found a case in Germany where some ancient celtic inscribed plates were found in a formation. Made of precious metals like bronze and silver. Where do the hoaxters keep these undiscovered relics, and why did they just throw them away?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxY98buBw2o

Ok , Project Alpha was a great hoax that JR revealed. I haven't seen solid evidence the circlemakers can make the complex formations that led to the discovery of the fifth mathematical theorem, bent but not broken nodes, signs of heat with molten iron,

http://www.xs4all.nl/~icircle/dcircles/Levengood_MeteoricIron.htm

Euclidean Geometry & Diatonic Ratios, I don't remember saying the "Meadentalksh@t" formation was a harmful hoax

http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-platesincrop.html

To emphasize I quote Dr Nowothnig's description of the location of the formation "one of the most significant prehistoric cult areas of Europe"


Plates handed over to the German Federal Institute for Material Research (Bundesanstalt fur Materialpufung) in Berlin for scientific study ..and?-

"Plate one (silver color) consisted mainly of quite pure silver (what an understatement!), with an additional ingredient accounting for less than 0.1%. The weight of the plate was 4.98kg (11lbs). Plate two (bronze color) consisted of a copper-tin alloy (of which the tin content amounted to 10%-15%), nickel and traces of iron amounting to less than 0.1%".


that would be 99.9 % silver give or take .05%

these hoaxters got no respect for sacred land, or precious metals, why should I respect them?