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Criticizing donations

Zep said:
MM is young and enthusiastic, and therefore headstrong at times. Don't you remember when that was you at that age? I remember being young and fired up like that in the 1970's, only we marched in demonstrations and held up traffic and shouted in the streets then (Vietnam War protests, draft-resisters, "the Dismissal" here in Australia, etc). Far worse than a few harsh words here. So let's not all get old and cranky on MM, OK?
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I could agree if this was one of his first posts. Even from a young, enthusiastic, headstrong youth, I expect more than a constant rehash of the kind of boring, mindless leftist propaganda that used to make me cringe in the 70's already (and I've had my time marching against Vietnam war, Franco's repressions and DeGaulle staying in power).
 
I love it when the federal government allocates so much money to aid, and people who don't think it's enough find Joe American and blast him about being stingy. The "you people" remark is great. No, Bush and the Congress decided how much aid would be sent. The "rich" Americans you're blaming for being stingy probably make something like $15 - $30,000 a year. You want to see how stingy Americans can be, take a look at private donations, as opposed to government sanctioned ones. In fact, I'd like to see American private aid donations compared to other nations private aid donations. I really wonder whether "Americans" would look so stingy.
 
Flo said:
I could agree if this was one of his first posts. Even from a young, enthusiastic, headstrong youth, I expect more than a constant rehash of the kind of boring, mindless leftist propaganda that used to make me cringe in the 70's already (and I've had my time marching against Vietnam war, Franco's repressions and DeGaulle staying in power).
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I wonder what people our age now thought of us then... That we were full of rehashed mindless pacifist leftist propaganda from the 1930's, probably...
 
Re: Re: Re: Donations

Dan Beaird said:
Remember something: whatever the U.S. or anyone else provides to the relief of the victims is a gift. It is provided out of the goodness of our hearts and feeling for our fellow man.
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I think maybe this is the fundamental difference of opinion that makes discussion such at this one so heated - wether charity is a gift out of the goodness of one's hearts or if it is a way to shoulder a responsibility to help people in need.
 
Zep said:
I wonder what people our age now thought of us then... That we were full of rehashed mindless pacifist leftist propaganda from the 1930's, probably...
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Neither me nor my parents were old enough to remember the pacifist arguments from the 30's and you could spot quite a number of our grandparents among the protesters in the 70's ...;)
 
Zep said:
MM is young and enthusiastic, and therefore headstrong at times. Don't you remember when that was you at that age? I remember being young and fired up like that in the 1970's, only we marched in demonstrations and held up traffic and shouted in the streets then (Vietnam War protests, draft-resisters, "the Dismissal" here in Australia, etc). Far worse than a few harsh words here. So let's not all get old and cranky on MM, OK?
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I would be more likely to take that position if he didn't spray his insults so freely.

If I had a doallr for everytime he called someone else a moron or similar I too would be able to donate a million to the Red Cross.
 
I guess the term "global village" is irrelevant when people here are out-trumping each other with dollar figures and throwing around accusations of racism and ulterior motives. I think this tragedy serves as a general reminder that there are always people in need whether they are in your backyard or a world away on your tv screen. What has been vastly ignored is the selflessness of many that are lending there time and talent without expectation of renumeration.

I am not trying to trash anyone I'm just throwing in another angle. I was prompted to think about this when I read the following article.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/01/06/tsunami-adoptions050106.html

Compassion isn't all about the size of one's wallet.
 
If I'm alive 50 years from now, there are two things I'll remember about the tsunami disaster of 2004:

1) How sad it was to see all the photos seeking information of missing loved ones posted on bulletin boards.

2) A--holes who criticized the United States for supposedly not being generous enough.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Donations

Leif Roar said:
I think maybe this is the fundamental difference of opinion that makes discussion such at this one so heated - wether charity is a gift out of the goodness of one's hearts or if it is a way to shoulder a responsibility to help people in need.
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You may have hit the nail on the head with this one Leif. Are these donations indeed charity or are they an obligation?

If they are an obligation, then what are the terms of the obligation? Does it fall on the U.S. only or are all nations required to fulfill the same terms? To me it sounds like a case of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". We all know the source of that and precisely how much support it will receive within the United States.

The U.S. is not (yet) a socialist state, nor is it likely to become one anytime soon.

As far as responsibility goes, Americans see a double standard. We see lots of people telling us what our responsibilities are while at the same time denying responsibility for practically everything on their own doorstep. Take the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists responsible for 9/11 and so on. We have done everything but beg the Islamic community and leadership to denounce their criminal acts and have received overwhelming silence as a reply. Sure there are a couple (Mohammed Ali really stands out in my mind) but most are either active supporters of the terrorists or indifferent.

Now the reason for this, we're told, is that there is a tradition of individual responsibility in Islam. Muslims do not feel responsible for the actions of others...and they get away with it! The U.S. government (or the citizenry as a whole) is held directly responsible for every illegal or immoral act commited by anyone with the most tenuous connection to the United States. The American people see this double standard and will eventually either start ignoring it (which will likewise result in ignoring the pleas of the truly needy) or begin applying the same technique to others (resulting in an even more arrogant indifference than is usually characterized by the American mindset).
 
Zep said:
MM is young and enthusiastic, and therefore headstrong at times. Don't you remember when that was you at that age? I remember being young and fired up like that in the 1970's, only we marched in demonstrations and held up traffic and shouted in the streets then (Vietnam War protests, draft-resisters, "the Dismissal" here in Australia, etc). Far worse than a few harsh words here. So let's not all get old and cranky on MM, OK?
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Ditto Jocko's response, BTW, Zep. I certainly don't lump all Austrailians with the likes of Mr. M.

And, yes, he's probably just a young, over-enthusiastic idealist. We all were at one time, weren't we? My concern is that his jabs at the U.S. could have the effect of making some folks bitter resulting in a decision to be less generous than they might. Ed only knows what effect he's having in his circle of peers. Assuming he has a circle of peers, of course.

I've chalked it up to the fact that the marriage between Mr. M and intelligent rationalization hasn't been consummated yet. Probably just as well. Who knows how the kids would have turned out? ;)
 
MM is young and enthusiastic, and therefore headstrong at times.

Alas, Zep, you are probably correct, and therefore, it's even sadder.

For it seems that for MM "enthusiastic idealist", is "enthusiastic at blaming the US for everything" and "idealist" means "gainst the current situation no matter what it is, becuase it isn't perfect so it's not worth a damn."

The problem with him is NOT that he is "young and idealistic", but that he is cynical and nihilistic. The more general problem is that being an "idealist", for many young people, MEANS being a cynical nihilist, and what's worse, they don't know any better.
 
Flo said:
I could agree if this was one of his first posts. Even from a young, enthusiastic, headstrong youth, I expect more than a constant rehash of the kind of boring, mindless leftist propaganda that used to make me cringe in the 70's already (and I've had my time marching against Vietnam war, Franco's repressions and DeGaulle staying in power).
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On a side note...

Flo,

Has DeGaulle moved into a statesman type reputation in France as a whole or is he still a divisive and polarizing figure? What about Mitterand?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

Mr Manifesto said:

You've missed the point again. I don't think you, or many other Americans, realised how much sympathy your country got after 9/11. The example I cited is simply one instance. Another one, quickly forgotten by just about everyone in the US, is the French newspapers proclaim, "Today we are all Americans". Now lots of Americans spit on them, calling them surrender monkeys. That's how the US (collectively) shows her gratitude.
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That's untrue!

We called them "cheese-eating surrender monkeys!"

Michael
 
Mike B. said:
On a side note...

Flo,

Has DeGaulle moved into a statesman type reputation in France as a whole or is he still a divisive and polarizing figure? What about Mitterand?
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Definitely so, but mostly for his role during the war and towards decolonisation. As a president, he's all but forgotten. Less and less politicians refer to him.

Mitterand is somehow more admired than reviled, mostly for being so twisted that he could have gotten out of a corkscrew during a gale without touching the sides.
 
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coalesce said:
That's untrue!

We called them "cheese-eating surrender monkeys!"

Michael
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which is a perfectly apt definition, since we do indeed surrender to cheese-eating at least once a day ;)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

Flo said:
which is a perfectly apt definition, since we do indeed surrender to cheese-eating at least once a day ;)
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And that's the only failing of Chinese cuisine! As I often point out to my Taiwanese-born wife, if you only had cheese on your menu, you'd be perfect...

...like the Sicilians (of which I am half).

Sorry for the derail.

Michael

P.S.

Insofar as donations go, my wife and I gave $200 to the Red Cross and I bought rubbing alcohol and bandages and donated them to a local relief center. Quite honestly, it's the first time since Sept. 11th that I've donated anything, and while I know the U.S. may not be the most popular nation in that part of the world, I don't care. We did what we felt was right, irrespective of ideology.
 
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Flo said:
...since we do indeed surrender to cheese-eating at least once a day ;)
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How perfectly civilised! May I join you?
 
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