Criticizing donations

[Thanz]

Re: Re: Re: Donations

Money is not a direct relief supply. Yes, money may be used to purchase the things necessary and the resources to deliver them but all that takes time. Certainly money is needed, and I did not mean to imply that it is not. However, immediate relief is best provided by the people who hold these assets. We can't just hand people a bundle of greenbacks and tell them to go about their normal lives.

You seem to have missed my point. I am not suggesting that we just people a bundle of greenbacks. What I am saying is that the best way for an individual to help is by donating cash to the various charities who can then use the cash to buy the stuff that the people need and get it there efficiently. I was talking about donating cash to the charities rather than donating things (like toys or clothes or water) to the charities.

I've seen all sorts of numbers floating around. They all seem to differ on what they count as aid and what they don't. The figure I gave is theoretically the total monetary aid from all sources in the United States. So rather than just compare one component of the equation, I'm trying to look at the whole picture. At this point people are waisting time counting pennies when they should be concerned with insuring that the people are getting what they need to survive. It's bad enough to lose 150,000+ in the tsunami, let's try not to lose any more to disease, de-hydration and starvation. To deal with that we must get food, water and medicine to the stricken areas. Money helps but it is not what the people there need right now.

The people who are getting the victims what they need are the ones who need the money - and it is to them that we are donating. I was not trying to capture all of the aid from any country - simply comparing what individuals have donated out of their own pocket.

Why not? Let's say the total is 1000 times less than that and therefore we should multiply foreign aid to the U.S. (as a percentage of GDP) by 1000 to arrive at an appropriate figure. Think the world would be happy with that number?

Why not? Because it is akin to saying to a family that has all been turned into quadriplegics that you are upset that they didn't help you out when you stubbed your toe last year. One requires massive amounts of foreign aid, the other doesn't.

 

[Giz]

Edited to add: let me make clear, I consider Australia's charity in this issue to be extraordinarily generous, commendable, and worthy of emulation by everyone.

This is probably (partly) due to it being on Australias doorstep. If Mexico had been hit by a comparable disaster I'd imagine:
(a) US aid would be greater
(b) AUZ aid might be less

 

[TragicMonkey]

This is probably (partly) due to it being on Australias doorstep. If Mexico had been hit by a comparable disaster I'd imagine:
(a) US aid would be greater
(b) AUZ aid might be less

Ah, but in that case, US aid would be given because Americans want to cynically exploit Mexicans for cheap labor, because politicians are hoping for the Hispanic vote, and because of the US's secret territorial ambitions for Mexico.

The US can't do anything without being blasted by somebody.

 

[Jocko]

Ah, but in that case, US aid would be given because Americans want to cynically exploit Mexicans for cheap labor, because politicians are hoping for the Hispanic vote, and because of the US's secret territorial ambitions for Mexico.

The US can't do anything without being blasted by somebody.

Got that right. Let's try turning that idea on our holier-than-thou Australian contributor:

"Everyone knows Australia is going heavy on the tsunami aid because they don't want to have to accept refugees, on account of Australia being such a systemically racist nation."

Boy, that WAS easy. No wonder Manifesto loves it so.


EDITED TO ADD: To be fair to the international community, we're not being "blasted by somebody" when Manifesto gets on his high horse. Under those circumstances, we're being "blasted by a nobody."

 

[Tmy]

This reminds me of the people who only give during Xmas. They think they are so high n mighty cause they put $10 in the Salvation Army pot, while the US only put $1. Of course they forget that the US donates money all year round, as well as volunteering at the soup kitchen every week. But that doesnt matter cause THEY ONLY PUT $1 in the pot!

 

[Dan Beaird]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Donations

You seem to have missed my point. I am not suggesting that we just people a bundle of greenbacks. What I am saying is that the best way for an individual to help is by donating cash to the various charities who can then use the cash to buy the stuff that the people need and get it there efficiently. I was talking about donating cash to the charities rather than donating things (like toys or clothes or water) to the charities.

I can agree with you in general, however my point is that the people and organizations that have material aid they can deliver to the stricken areas now are of more immediate importance than fund raising efforts. In the meantime I've been collecting winter sports equipment (hockey sticks and skates, ski boots and curling brooms) for delivery to the victims.

The people who are getting the victims what they need are the ones who need the money - and it is to them that we are donating. I was not trying to capture all of the aid from any country - simply comparing what individuals have donated out of their own pocket.

Really? The U.S. has sent ships, aircraft, personnel and supplies to the area, and I don't believe the world has offered our government money to pay for more. Okay that stretches it I admit. Yes, charitable organizations need money to help out in relief efforts, but they are only a portion of the aid being offered and probably not the most significant portion at that.

Why not? Because it is akin to saying to a family that has all been turned into quadriplegics that you are upset that they didn't help you out when you stubbed your toe last year. One requires massive amounts of foreign aid, the other doesn't.

So you are somehow saying that the victims of the Florida hurricanes are somehow less dead than those of the tsunami? I know that's not fair either. But the fact is that there are still U.S. families who are homeless from those disasters. The tsunami victims are not more deserving of aid than anyone else, they are just in more immediate need to prevent additional death and damage resulting from the disaster. Personally I feel that we shouldn't offer a dime for rebuilding asia until after we've repaired our own houses.

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Criticizing donations

The reality is, Mr. M, that the U.S. will be damned and criticized no matter what efforts she makes.

You noticed, too?

 

[Magyar]

sometimes jumping into these threads I feel like I should just bang my head against the wall.


As you may have gathered from my few posts I am NOT a fan of
Bush or virtually aything that he stands for or promotes and I was definately in the group that jumped all over, and still do, his personal response to this tragedy ($10K, come on George, a hand full of uneducated imigrants who together don't have large enough business to qualify for your definition of a small business coughed up more money. And we don't get any sweetheart deals and insider stock tips)

But REALLY, Mr M. et al US bashers, what would it take to make you happy?


You have several times metioned how US Corps have a vast interest in the area. This is true and you make a valid point that these corporations use and abuse the people there to their profit. But what do you think that has to do with ME as a US citizen? Remember that these corporations do NOT return these profits in ANY shape to the US in tax dollars, jobs or benefits.
It's to avoid all of the above that they go over there in the first place! Otherwise they'd be making Nike in middletown Ohio.
These acts benefit a very small percentage, who only care about the US for as far as they can profit by/from it.

I think that there is a vast disconnect between what the reality of the US middle class is and what people of other nations (first world obviously, not 3rd world) think it is. I would wager that
the number of people who are only one paycheck or one illness away from being destitute in the US is FAR greater than any other first world country. Yet the vast majority of the donations are coming from these people.

Where the US falls BLATANTLY short in generosity is fom the top.
A few bleeding heart libs from Hollywood stepped up, but where are ALL the "Passionate Conservatives" ( and yes IT IS A lagit political point since THEY made it a campaign issue)

Bush and family gave $10K, Chenney - ZERO!

Some euroweeny racecar driver was able to come up with $10 million. Chenney cleared 3 times that in one stock sale.
Does he have to give? NO, but then he should shut the *(&* up
about how compassionate he is. IT's the same damned hypocracy that he displayed when his daughter was brought into the gay marriage issue.

To the US love it or leave it crowd -
I keep hearing about all the ships and military aid as sums that should be counted in our generous donations.
Come on - were these ships and crew held in some kind of stasis? Where they sent there by a transporter beam?
All of the ships were operating somewhere within that area. IF there were no tsunami, these ships would still be runing and costing the US tax payers the same amount of money ( OK maybe there are some marginal added costs, but what 5-10% more than SOP?)

As usual I am sure that I fall very far short of being satisfactorily
elliquent, but I am sometimes amazed at the lack of intellectual honesty from BOTH sides.

 

[waitew]

Of course the Australians are giving alot.After all ,they live in fear of a massive invasion by Indonesian muslims!Those poor Indonesians aren't looking to flee to America but to Australia!If a comparable disaster happened in Mexico/central America you'd see America giving the most because such a disaster makes it diffucult to deny entry to the victims!!Must bow to world opinon you know.Australia's giving alot because Australia's got alot to lose!!It's not quite as altruistic as the Aussies would have you believe.

 

[shuize]

I mean, really, it's so obvious that Australia is giving large donations to revive their "white Australia" policy.

 

[Zep]

MM, stop that. You may think you're funny, but you're really just stirring up a big wasp's nest with a very short stick, to no useful purpose.

 

[Jocko]

MM, stop that. You may think you're funny, but you're really just stirring up a big wasp's nest with a very short stick, to no useful purpose.

Zep, I apologize for the way I and others inadvertently lump you in with the likes of Manifesto. There is no shortage of snots in any country I know of, and I hope you don't take offense at the broad brushes used.

Manifesto's problem isn't that he's Australian, his problem is that he's a moron. Could have been born anywhere, really.

 

[Zep]

Zep, I apologize for the way I and others inadvertently lump you in with the likes of Manifesto. There is no shortage of snots in any country I know of, and I hope you don't take offense at the broad brushes used.

Manifesto's problem isn't that he's Australian, his problem is that he's a moron. Could have been born anywhere, really.

No offense taken, assuredly.

Oh no, MM is hardly a moron. It's just that I think it's become one of those "drop it and leave it alone" moments that even the ablest of people sometimes don't know they've reached. Irrational, perhaps, but there you are.

 

[Jas]

I think that the main reasons that so much aid is coming from Oz is that there are a larger number of citizens/residents, who originate from the afflicted countries, and also, half of Oz has been to Thailand, and as a result, feel more of an 'obligation' to help.

I also know several people who refuse to donate to Tsunami relief, as they feel that all the money is going to end up in a bank in Switzerland. I'm not sure about how I feel about that as a reason to not donate though, but it's true that unfortuanately, there are always people willing to profit of another's misfortune, and take advantage of peoples willingness to help.

 

[Zep]

Already there's been reports of newly orphaned children being taken secretly from Thai and Indonesian camps and hospitals without anyone knowing where they went or with whom. With hundreds of thousands of displaced persons, many of them children, the resulting chaos makes it easy for things to go seriously wrong. Details are sketchy and not well substantiated though.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1104958531750_100367731/?hub=TopStories

Child-trafficking is rife in SE Asia, alas, and some people may be hard-hearted enough to take advantage of this situation. It's also an attraction for pedophiles. This sort of activity has been reliably reported in other refugee and disaster camps elsewhere in the world previously.

 

[shecky]

U.S. Should Not Help Tsunami Victims sez heartless bastards.
http://tinyurl.com/3uqh5

The United States government, however, should not give any money to help the tsunami victims. Why? Because the money is not the government's to give.

Year after year, for decades, the government has forced American taxpayers to provide foreign aid to every type of natural or man-made disaster on the face of the earth: from the Marshall Plan to reconstruct a war-ravaged Europe to the $15 billion recently promised to fight AIDS in Africa to the countless amounts spent to help the victims of earthquakes, fires and floods--from South America to Asia. Even the enemies of the United States were given money extorted from American taxpayers: from the billions given away by Clinton to help the starving North Koreans to the billions given away by Bush to help the blood-thirsty Palestinians under Arafat's murderous regime.

Let the bodies rot, let cholera take the rest.

 

[Drooper]

Could I request everyone ignore Manifesto. He is an embarrassment to Australians.

And Zep. If MM isn't a moron then he must have someone else writing his posts

 

[belinda]

Please don't judge all aussies by MM. Although there is some discussion about who donated what it is generally from in the International press. I guess there will be even more bitching about it after the annoucement made today by our PM. (He said we were donating $1 billion)

As for me, why whinge - be grateful instead and focus on helping people in such dire straights. It is the worst disaster that I can think of for many many years and a great tragedy

 

[Flo]

Could I request everyone ignore Manifesto. He is an embarrassment to Australians.

He's an embarassment to anybody who values constructive discussion ...

 

[Zep]

He's an embarassment to anybody who values constructive discussion ...

MM is young and enthusiastic, and therefore headstrong at times. Don't you remember when that was you at that age? I remember being young and fired up like that in the 1970's, only we marched in demonstrations and held up traffic and shouted in the streets then (Vietnam War protests, draft-resisters, "the Dismissal" here in Australia, etc). Far worse than a few harsh words here. So let's not all get old and cranky on MM, OK?