covert hypnosis, does it work?

[MaartenVergu]

On wikipedia you can find a page about 'covert hypnosis'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_hypnosis

The claim is that we can influence other people in conversations with embedded suggestions. They make a distinction between the 'conscious mind' and 'the unconscious mind'. The conscious mind is our critical thinking and by giving embedded suggestions, you can bypass this conscious mind. That's what they say. It's also known as 'Ericksonian hypnosis'. Milton Erickson was a psychiatrist and hypnotherapist who invented most of these "techniques". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson

I've read that educated hypnotherapists use sometimes Ericksonian hypnosis. They call it 'clinical hypnosis'.
This may prove that these conversational techniques work.

If you do a google search on 'covert hypnosis' you will find expensive courses and DVD's about the subject.
My question is: does it work? Becaus if it works, it's interesting for critical thinkers to know these techniques when used in discussions.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Ok, I guess no one knows it on the Jrefforum and I can't find any serious scepticism or scientific experiments or research about the subject.

 

[s4zando]

The wiki page was not very informative, and left me wanting to see some examples. (And evidence).

Found some in the second link. From Erickson himself:

Encouraging Resistance - For Erickson, the classic therapeutic request to "tell me everything about..." was both aggressive and disrespectful, instead he would ask the resistant patient to withhold information and only to tell what they were really ready to reveal:

I usually say, "There are a number of things that you don't want me to know about, that you don't want to tell me. There are a lot of things about yourself that you don't want to discuss, therefore let's discuss those that you are willing to discuss." She has blanket permission to withhold anything and everything. But she did come to discuss things. And therefore she starts discussing this, discussing that. And it's always "Well, this is all right to talk about." And before she's finished, she has mentioned everything. And each new item - "Well, this really isn't so important that I have to withhold it. I can use the withholding permission for more important matters." Simply a hypnotic technique. To make them respond to the idea of withholding, and to respond to the idea of communicating.[12]

That doesn't sound like hypnosis to me. Nor do the other examples in the second link. Persuasion, coercion, influence, sure. All tried-and-true methods of manipulation. Cute fancy bow they wrap those up in though.

Ok, I guess no one knows it on the Jrefforum and I can't find any serious scepticism or scientific experiments or research about the subject.

Count me as skeptical.

 

[marting]

Calling it covert hypnosis is a marketing tool. It's "covert hypnosis in action"

 

[casebro]

The wiki page was not very informative, and left me wanting to see some examples. (And evidence).

Found some in the second link. From Erickson himself:




That doesn't sound like hypnosis to me. Nor do the other examples in the second link. Persuasion, coercion, influence, sure. All tried-and-true methods of manipulation. Cute fancy bow they wrap those up in though.




Count me as skeptical.

I would expect Erickson would be biased, eh?

Durn it, a cow-orker of mine in about '83 went to some seminar about something similar.
I can';t recall the name of the big princip;le (or his either) but the marketing was something like "How to majically get whatever you want, freely, from other people by superior intellect". Also know as Manipulation. He tried it on me, to get me to do his work, with things like "How would YOU do this job?" It didn't work.

Though I do remember a few very powerful incidents in my 60 years. Superficially innocuous hapennings that made me make big changes in myself. Some greater brain could potentially do it on purpose. Sort of the way Scientalogy works? Yup. LGAPs* are exactly "covert hypnosis".

* Large Group Awareness Programs, like "The Forum", EST, Scientalogy, Christianity,.... brainwashing you with the concept that "we can make you a better, more successful person. Donate here. And oh, recruit too..." Cynic that I am, I found the skeptical articles on the net VERY entertaining.

 

[marplots]

What do you mean by, "works?" That's always the rub. If you merely mean directing matters by using cues that go "under the radar," then yes, of course. Here's a common enough example:

I meet a man who is serious of mein, fit, has a military-style hair cut and speaks with authority. I don't have to categorize all these cues to be more likely to obey a command from him about, "don't park there, the Mayor is arriving soon." Contrast this with how I might react if a small child with googly eyes said the same thing.

So of course we have biases that are cued by unexamined/unconscious perceptions. The question is then whether these can be used in a more subtle and a more practical manner.

The answer is that sometimes, yes; mostly maybe; and never always. In my scenario, I could very well challenge the man to produce ID or otherwise backup his request. If I am aware, for example, that marketers prefer to have their product displayed at chest height because consumers are more likely to grab the brand that's in reach, I may very well use that awareness to avoid doing so. My feeling of being manipulated trumps what should be an unconscious mechanism.

In my opinion, such techniques can be helpful but are
1) Not useful to get specific behaviors unless a great deal about the situation is designed with that in mind.
2) Not even close to 100%
3) Will often have a kick-back if you are caught out
4) Normally not necessary because our communications work best when attention is given to them.

The skeptic in me thinks: "from a small bit of truth, a great lie can be built."

 

[Joey McGee]

There are a few people around here that believe, on zero evidence but their own disbelief, that everything Brown does is faked with actors.

The academic hypnosis experts interviewed for his show on Sirhan Sirhan said it would be impossible to do several of the things he was able to do.



So, it seems obvious to me that there are practitioners capable of making all of this work, and a large gap between them and academia. It's kind of a taboo, scary subject for some kinds of people as well, the kind of thing only certain kinds of people are interested in knowing about. It's like why would anyone want to gain these skills at all unless you're a magician or performer? How can you make research on such a thing a public service?

 

[Senex]

On wikipedia you can find a page about 'covert hypnosis'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_hypnosis

The claim is that we can influence other people in conversations with embedded suggestions. They make a distinction between the 'conscious mind' and 'the unconscious mind'. The conscious mind is our critical thinking and by giving embedded suggestions, you can bypass this conscious mind. That's what they say. It's also known as 'Ericksonian hypnosis'. Milton Erickson was a psychiatrist and hypnotherapist who invented most of these "techniques". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson

I've read that educated hypnotherapists use sometimes Ericksonian hypnosis. They call it 'clinical hypnosis'.
This may prove that these conversational techniques work.

If you do a google search on 'covert hypnosis' you will find expensive courses and DVD's about the subject.
My question is: does it work? Becaus if it works, it's interesting for critical thinkers to know these techniques when used in discussions.

I've always been interested in suggestion (I wanted to reproduce Kreskin's act when I was 10). I have read a great deal about hypnosis, both clinical and stage, and my nephew has just put a shingle up as a hypnotherapist and that has gotten me interested in the field again. Erickson used what he called "confusion" techniques. It isn't really covert. Everyone that walked in his office knew he was a hypnotist. Erickson wasn't hypnotizing people in the produce aisle of the supermarket covertly. There is no covert hypnosis. There is manipulation, persuasion and coercion but no covert hypnosis. Save your money on the hypnosis DVD's and buy pheromones instead (the women will be attracted to you and never realize it is your scent that drives them wild ).

There are a few people around here that believe, on zero evidence but their own disbelief, that everything Brown does is faked with actors.

I've discussed Brown on this site before and no one I remember has accused Brown of using actors and what is faked depends on your definition of faked. I am armed with more than my disbelief. For instance you believe the guy in the jewelry store is looking up and down the street looking for Brown because he just discovered he gave him a ring for blank pieces of paper -- that's not the reason he is looking up and down the street. You should become acquainted with the term "dual reality" if you want to ascertain some of Browns effects.

The academic hypnosis experts interviewed for his show on Sirhan Sirhan said it would be impossible to do several of the things he was able to do.



So, it seems obvious to me that there are practitioners capable of making all of this work, and a large gap between them and academia. It's kind of a taboo, scary subject for some kinds of people as well, the kind of thing only certain kinds of people are interested in knowing about. It's like why would anyone want to gain these skills at all unless you're a magician or performer? How can you make research on such a thing a public service?

Don't you think the CIA/KGB would be interested in making foreign nationals into their own hit men? If it was possible we would be talking about more assassinations than just Robert Kennedy's. If Brown could make someone a sharpshooter through hypnosis don't you think the British army would hire him and make the British infantry all sharpshooters. If Brown could transform people into performing at their peak don't you think he would have better things to do with his time than performing at nightclubs? When I was ten I went to Lou Tannen's magic shop and asked for books on mentalism. I knew it was all bulloney by the time I was eleven. Brown is a great showman but don't be fooled into thinking you could trick merchants into selling you stuff for blank pieces of paper or hypnotize someone to do your bidding if you just had Darren Brown's secrets.

 

[s4zando]

I would expect Erickson would be biased, eh?

Durn it, a cow-orker of mine in about '83 went to some seminar about something similar.
I can';t recall the name of the big princip;le (or his either) but the marketing was something like "How to majically get whatever you want, freely, from other people by superior intellect". Also know as Manipulation. He tried it on me, to get me to do his work, with things like "How would YOU do this job?" It didn't work.

Though I do remember a few very powerful incidents in my 60 years. Superficially innocuous hapennings that made me make big changes in myself. Some greater brain could potentially do it on purpose. Sort of the way Scientalogy works? Yup. LGAPs* are exactly "covert hypnosis".

* Large Group Awareness Programs, like "The Forum", EST, Scientalogy, Christianity,.... brainwashing you with the concept that "we can make you a better, more successful person. Donate here. And oh, recruit too..." Cynic that I am, I found the skeptical articles on the net VERY entertaining.

Upon reflection, techniques such as Good Cop/Bad Cop, Guilt Tripping, and Lying By Omission would seem to qualify under this 'new' distinction of covert hypnosis.

<Snip to the analysis>
In my opinion, such techniques can be helpful but are
1) Not useful to get specific behaviors unless a great deal about the situation is designed with that in mind.
2) Not even close to 100%
3) Will often have a kick-back if you are caught out
4) Normally not necessary because our communications work best when attention is given to them.

The skeptic in me thinks: "from a small bit of truth, a great lie can be built."

Indeed. You could probably re-package and sell that bolded bit of wisdom. (For the low, low price of $99/month, I can show you how to turn words into ideas, ideas into concepts, and from there....Profit!)

marting:Calling it covert hypnosis is a marketing tool. It's "covert hypnosis in action"

This one gets it...another happy customer.

 

[marplots]

Senex is right. And calling these techniques "hypnosis" damages the term.

If you wish to see influence in action, listen to a powerful speech, watch a commercial or notice how the pretty girls are always draped across the car in the magazine ad.

Influencing others is so common between human beings we are all well versed in it. I am doing it now with the words I am using to make the point I wish to make. Any woman can instruct you on the nuances of well applied make-up to gain an effect. If you are female, ask a man how invading someone's personal space can be used to gain the upper hand.

Making such stuff mysterious is simply a way to sell it to the masses. Applied psychology predates the phrase. A course in face-to-face sales will bring you up to speed more quickly than getting mired in goofy, half-proven techniques that merely validate what you already do.

There is one placebo effect I think applies to NLP. The confidence you gain by believing in the techniques can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But again, that's no different that believing Axe for Men will make you desirable.

ETA: If you'd like to read what actual hypnotists say about their craft, here is a forum I sometimes visit: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=22&24069

 

[rcfieldz]

uh uhuh

whatever man...

 

[Weak Kitten]

S
There is one placebo effect I think applies to NLP. The confidence you gain by believing in the techniques can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. But again, that's no different that believing Axe for Men will make you desirable.

Slightly off topic but I've always wondered about that Axe stuff. It smells absolutely awful to me and every other woman I've asked also hates the smell. On the other hand I can attest that smell can make you attractive to women. I've seen women act more positively towards guys who smell like brownies or fresh cut flowers. But things like that Axe stuff literally drive women away.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Durn it, a cow-orker of mine in about '83 went to some seminar about something similar.

Cow-orker? That takes me back. snopes?

 

[Senex]

Slightly off topic but I've always wondered about that Axe stuff. It smells absolutely awful to me and every other woman I've asked also hates the smell. On the other hand I can attest that smell can make you attractive to women. I've seen women act more positively towards guys who smell like brownies or fresh cut flowers. But things like that Axe stuff literally drive women away.

It's the smells you don't notice that are the ones to watch out for. My favorite pheromone aftershave (that I only use responsibly) is never noticed by the women that I drive crazy. When I smell a guy who reeks of brownies or flowers I think "amateur."

Hey, what happened to the Darren Brown supporters. They don't usually give up so easily. Aren't we lucky he (or all the covert hypnotists for that matter) isn't using his powers for evil purposes?

 

[Joey McGee]

I've discussed Brown on this site before and no one I remember has accused Brown of using actors and what is faked depends on your definition of faked. I am armed with more than my disbelief. For instance you believe the guy in the jewelry store is looking up and down the street looking for Brown because he just discovered he gave him a ring for blank pieces of paper -- that's not the reason he is looking up and down the street. You should become acquainted with the term "dual reality" if you want to ascertain some of Browns effects.

So Senex, is it because you want to protect the tricks of the trade or is it because you really don't think it can be done?

Don't you think the CIA/KGB would be interested in making foreign nationals into their own hit men? If it was possible we would be talking about more assassinations than just Robert Kennedy's. If Brown could make someone a sharpshooter through hypnosis don't you think the British army would hire him and make the British infantry all sharpshooters. If Brown could transform people into performing at their peak don't you think he would have better things to do with his time than performing at nightclubs?

IIRC, the hypnotist merely showed it could be done, not that it could be done to your standards.

When I was ten I went to Lou Tannen's magic shop and asked for books on mentalism. I knew it was all bulloney by the time I was eleven. Brown is a great showman but don't be fooled into thinking you could trick merchants into selling you stuff for blank pieces of paper or hypnotize someone to do your bidding if you just had Darren Brown's secrets.

Evidence still pending examination.

 

[Joey McGee]

Whatever you call the "techniques" the fact remains is that you haven't proved fraud! And you're expecting "disbelief" to act as debunking! Well jeez I thought we were all a little more beyond the pale than that

 

[Senex]

So Senex, is it because you want to protect the tricks of the trade or is it because you really don't think it can be done?

I'm uncertain what your pronoun "it" refers to but I'll admit I don't believe anyone has the ability to "suggest" blank pieces of paper are currency to merchants and successfully complete a transaction. If you watch the ring purchase scenario you don't see the transaction up close. You believe the jeweler got hoodwinked because he walked outside after Brown left the store and looked up and down the street in search of him. Wouldn't it be more likely that the woman who spoke with the jeweler before he left the shop just told him someone called on the phone telling her that if a man with a British accent came in looking at rings he should call home home at once because of an emergency or something. That would be a more likely explanation for the jeweler to go to the street looking for Brown than the explanation he just realized he sold a ring for blank pieces of paper. That's dual reality.

IIRC, the hypnotist merely showed it could be done, not that it could be done to your standards.

I don't have standards for such things but the TV people do and there was a lot of papers signed behind the scenes before this demonstration was done. The hypnotized subject had zero chance of PTSD for shooting at a beloved British personality in front of a large audience. The hypnotized subject knew there was no chance of really killing anyone or that piece of TV would be highly unethical. That was no real demonstration of any sort.

Evidence still pending examination.

If I showed you just one instance of Brown using a standard gimmicked device that can be purchased at any magic shop on one of his TV specials (I wouldn't show you on this site, it is against the rules) would you change your mind about Brown?

Whatever you call the "techniques" the fact remains is that you haven't proved fraud! And you're expecting "disbelief" to act as debunking! Well jeez I thought we were all a little more beyond the pale than that

I would call Brown an entertainer not a fraud. If you want to be able to do what he does you should read books on magic and mentalism and not books written by Brown.

 

[Joey McGee]

I'm uncertain what your pronoun "it" refers to but I'll admit I don't believe anyone has the ability to "suggest" blank pieces of paper are currency to merchants and successfully complete a transaction. If you watch the ring purchase scenario you don't see the transaction up close. You believe the jeweler got hoodwinked because he walked outside after Brown left the store and looked up and down the street in search of him. Wouldn't it be more likely that the woman who spoke with the jeweler before he left the shop just told him someone called on the phone telling her that if a man with a British accent came in looking at rings he should call home home at once because of an emergency or something. That would be a more likely explanation for the jeweler to go to the street looking for Brown than the explanation he just realized he sold a ring for blank pieces of paper. That's dual reality.

That's not what happens in the video, the guy clearly takes the fake bills, runs his hands through them, then tucks them under his invoice copy as he's talking and being told to "Take it" Your dual reality theory is not possible here, it's either an actor and it's entirely faked or it's real. There is no known fact that would make this impossible

I don't have standards for such things but the TV people do and there was a lot of papers signed behind the scenes before this demonstration was done. The hypnotized subject had zero chance of PTSD for shooting at a beloved British personality in front of a large audience. The hypnotized subject knew there was no chance of really killing anyone or that piece of TV would be highly unethical. That was no real demonstration of any sort.

This is just your belief, there is no known fact that such hypnotism is impossible, you haven't shown that such a show could not be made under UK law.

If I showed you just one instance of Brown using a standard gimmicked device that can be purchased at any magic shop on one of his TV specials (I wouldn't show you on this site, it is against the rules) would you change your mind about Brown?

No idea why I should, as he clearly sometimes shows things that can be actually done while also sometimes doing magic.

I would call Brown an entertainer not a fraud. If you want to be able to do what he does you should read books on magic and mentalism and not books written by Brown.

I just wish someone could actually prove he's faking these sequences instead of just giving their own vacuous reasons why they don't believe it.

 

[marplots]

(much snipped)
I just wish someone could actually prove he's faking these sequences instead of just giving their own vacuous reasons why they don't believe it.

What would constitute proof as you see it?

 

[Joey McGee]

What a pointless question. I don't think it's impossible he's faking it and that these people are actors. There is no evidence of it, nothing he's done is for a fact impossible, and really at this point in his career I think someone would have talked by now. One of the countless conspiracy theorists or reporters who don't like him would have found a single piece of evidence...

I think it's more likely that there are those that could never pull off his work and don't understand what he does. They decide their own incompetence or limit to their knowledge is impossible. therefore, actors.

Derren claims that Channel 4's lawyers would not let them mislead the public into thinking someone was a member of the public when they are really an actor. I guess maybe he's making that up too?