covert hypnosis, does it work?

[marplots]

What a pointless question. I don't think it's impossible he's faking it and that these people are actors. There is no evidence of it, nothing he's done is for a fact impossible, and really at this point in his career I think someone would have talked by now. One of the countless conspiracy theorists or reporters who don't like him would have found a single piece of evidence...

I think it's more likely that there are those that could never pull off his work and don't understand what he does. They decide their own incompetence or limit to their knowledge is impossible. therefore, actors.

Derren claims that Channel 4's lawyers would not let them mislead the public into thinking someone was a member of the public when they are really an actor. I guess maybe he's making that up too?

I'd be interested in any evidence showing the highlighted part to be true.

I have no inside information on Derren Brown. These guys seem to think at least one actor has been involved: http://shockradar.org/2012/10/29/it...s-apocalypse-star-revealed-as-aspiring-actor/

But how would we ever know, as long as fakery could duplicate "honest" trickery?

Here's a thread on JREF that talks about Brown using stooges and at least one actress: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228724

 

[Joey McGee]

I have no inside information on Derren Brown. These guys seem to think at least one actor has been involved: http://shockradar.org/2012/10/29/it...s-apocalypse-star-revealed-as-aspiring-actor/[

Doesn't really seem like a smoking gun to me,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...osts-video-debunking-conspiracy-theories.html

Here's a thread on JREF that talks about Brown using stooges and at least one actress: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228724

The woman in the Voodoo Doll clip is certainly the actress Magna Rodriguez, she's got the mole in the same spot on her cheek...

 

[marplots]

I'll admit I'm biased because I've been involved in the magic community for a long time. But, that said, here's the difficulty:

1) If I can come up with a method to get the results shown, I cannot be sure it was the actual method used.
2) I am limited by my knowledge of how "covert" hypnosis may work and have seen it poo-pooed by hypnotists as unworkable, impossible and so on.
3) If we see Brown using known methods for other parts of his act, we still can't be sure he is using regular trickery for the whole act.
4) Even if a witness comes forward, we don't know whether to trust the witness or what Brown says.
5) Even if Brown says it's a trick, we can't be sure he isn't lying to conceal his real methods.

I guess, what I'm saying is there really isn't a clear path to a proof either way. My instinct tells me that if such a technique existed, it would be well known among stage hypnotists/mentalists - it is very rare for a completely new technique to emerge.

One last thing - I do have some workable ideas on how it could be done, but we are not allowed to reveal methods here. Perhaps Senex could advise on where the line might be?

 

[fuelair]

I'll admit I'm biased because I've been involved in the magic community for a long time. But, that said, here's the difficulty:

1) If I can come up with a method to get the results shown, I cannot be sure it was the actual method used.
2) I am limited by my knowledge of how "covert" hypnosis may work and have seen it poo-pooed by hypnotists as unworkable, impossible and so on.
3) If we see Brown using known methods for other parts of his act, we still can't be sure he is using regular trickery for the whole act.
4) Even if a witness comes forward, we don't know whether to trust the witness or what Brown says.
5) Even if Brown says it's a trick, we can't be sure he isn't lying to conceal his real methods.

I guess, what I'm saying is there really isn't a clear path to a proof either way. My instinct tells me that if such a technique existed, it would be well known among stage hypnotists/mentalists - it is very rare for a completely new technique to emerge.

One last thing - I do have some workable ideas on how it could be done, but we are not allowed to reveal methods here. Perhaps Senex could advise on where the line might be?

Line(s) vary depending on the person being influenced - but for good example just look up a Mr. Joseph Goebbels of Germany - primarily active in the 1930s and 40s.

 

[Senex]

That's not what happens in the video,

Yes, it is.

the guy clearly takes the fake bills, runs his hands through them, then tucks them under his invoice copy as he's talking and being told to "Take it"

Clear, as in as clear as a poorly positioned camera across the street that isn't shot in one edit can be. Why didn't Brown use a spy camera in his glasses equipped with sound and show the entire transaction in one edit?

I have a possible answer -- because jewelers in Manhattan would not stay in business long selling expensive rings for blank pieces of paper.

Your dual reality theory is not possible here, it's either an actor and it's entirely faked or it's real.

It is more than possible. Let me assure you that the jeweler is not an actor and before Brown's crew came back into his store for him to sign a release the jeweler did not know he was involved in a TV show. The jeweler was paid real cash for a real ring and while I can not state actual details used to make him walk out into the street and look around, I do know the reason had nothing to do with realizing he experienced some sort of negative hallucination and created real currency in his head where blank paper was in his hand.

I just wish someone could actually prove he's faking these sequences instead of just giving their own vacuous reasons why they don't believe it.

Well I certainly am wasting my vacuous explanations on you because you clearly wish to give Brown superpowers no one can have or you can't give up hope someday you will possess them yourself.

One last thing - I do have some workable ideas on how it could be done, but we are not allowed to reveal methods here. Perhaps Senex could advise on where the line might be?

You can't say "see he used a thumb tip writer at the 1:36 minute mark" but you can say wouldn't it have been more impressive if he never touched this item if no trickery was necessary.

I'd like to add this about stooges (actors). I don't believe Brown uses actors who are paid to pretend to be an audience member he never met before. There are things like "instant stooges" in the entertainment field.

This is a scenario I just made up for informative purposes. The entertainer brings up two audience members on stage. One audience member selects a card and looks at it and the performer turns to the second audience member and asks to concentrate and tell any particular card that comes to mind and lo and behold the card selected by the first audience member came to the second person's mind. Telepathy? or maybe the performer had a gizmo that could make an image of a card appear on their eyeglasses only the second audience member could see. Most audience members would state the card they saw in the eyeglass was the card that came to mind even though the audience members in their seats were not privy to the reasons why they chose that particular card that was really forced on the first audience member to begin with. I made this trick up and no glasses like that exist but it demonstrates a dual reality and a person agreeing to be a stooge when on the spot. I see nothing fraudulent about using this technique.

Now I will let you draw your own conclusions on taking ads out for volunteers in trade papers to be the guinea pig for a Brown TV special and what trials, expectations and waivers were signed before appearing on the show (or how many people did the stunt before one was chosen to be aired). It clearly is more involved than grabbing a person off the street and showing a live zombie apocalypse.

Come on, use some common sense, this is the Randi site and you should be skeptical someone can manipulate other people to this extent and decide to stay working in clubs instead of doing more important things than entertaining gullible people for much less money than manipulating important people for great deals of money and prestige.

 

[marplots]

I went back and watched one of the "blank money" clips on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy75GtKsOAw

At about 40 sec he says the price, $18.55, there are a few convenient cuts to switch between cameras (who knows what happens in between?) and at about a minute the guy hands him his change. No bills, just change.

There is no denomination of two blank paper bills that will get you just change back from an $18.55 purchase. Something, other than the products being sold, smells fishy. What happened between camera cuts? Or, are we supposed to believe that the cashier thought 2 blank pieces of paper totaled $19.00?

I also suspect the audio is filled in later to make the different transactions appear continuous and cover for edits. We don't actually see Derren's mouth several points.

If there's any genius here, it's in the edits. For example, the jeweler doesn't give him change back and the entire jewelry transaction takes about a minute. This includes getting the ring out, writing up an invoice, boxing it and taking the "cash." Something's been cut. Probably a lot of somethings. While there is no reason for the camera to cut at all, it does. The eighth and ninth cuts in that sequence are probably where the missing time comes in.

So how do you make the blank pieces of paper seem natural for a cashier to take? Easy. You cut out the part where he says, "Do you have a trash can?" Later, when they are handed over, it's not even worth noticing - unlike money, which a cashier would handle differently, especially a jeweler taking more than $4,000 in cash.

 

[LandR]

Blank Money Trick

The blank money trick isn't a Derren Brown trick. I can't remember who it was that originally published it, he released it with another trick that I also can't remember.

It had zero to do with hypnosis, obviously.

If Derren used the same technique then the camera edits and cuts were very favourable to him.

 

[marplots]

The blank money trick isn't a Derren Brown trick. I can't remember who it was that originally published it, he released it with another trick that I also can't remember.

It had zero to do with hypnosis, obviously.

If Derren used the same technique then the camera edits and cuts were very favourable to him.

It's a wonder we don't have threads asking if Criss Angel can really float, since there is footage of people on the street watching him do it.

 

[rcfieldz]

It's a wonder we don't have threads asking if Criss Angel can really float, since there is footage of people on the street watching him do it.

Is there anyone to reveal his secret trick? Man the guy looks so burnt out and high in the pics I've seen of him. Saw a magic kit in a store named for him.

 

[Senex]

I went back and watched one of the "blank money" clips on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy75GtKsOAw

At about 40 sec he says the price, $18.55, there are a few convenient cuts to switch between cameras (who knows what happens in between?) and at about a minute the guy hands him his change. No bills, just change.

There is no denomination of two blank paper bills that will get you just change back from an $18.55 purchase. Something, other than the products being sold, smells fishy. What happened between camera cuts? Or, are we supposed to believe that the cashier thought 2 blank pieces of paper totaled $19.00?

I also suspect the audio is filled in later to make the different transactions appear continuous and cover for edits. We don't actually see Derren's mouth several points.

If there's any genius here, it's in the edits. For example, the jeweler doesn't give him change back and the entire jewelry transaction takes about a minute. This includes getting the ring out, writing up an invoice, boxing it and taking the "cash." Something's been cut. Probably a lot of somethings. While there is no reason for the camera to cut at all, it does. The eighth and ninth cuts in that sequence are probably where the missing time comes in.

So how do you make the blank pieces of paper seem natural for a cashier to take? Easy. You cut out the part where he says, "Do you have a trash can?" Later, when they are handed over, it's not even worth noticing - unlike money, which a cashier would handle differently, especially a jeweler taking more than $4,000 in cash.

See, vacuous explanations are not always wasted. Brown doesn't even count the blank paper for the merchants so I guess they were supposed to ascertain the individual denominations on their own and decide suitable change (good pick up on two bill not being able to make $19. The only continuous shot with a good angle was shot of the hot dog vendor who refused to accept the blank paper as money. I guess Brown threw that in to demonstrate hot dog vendors are more street savvy than jewelers and deli guys and not as easily fooled with suggestion that blank paper is currency or he put that in to show his mind powers don't always work therefore making it more believable because a real magician would never fail - or both.

No actors are involved but when you deconstruct what actually happened it wasn't terribly impressive was it?