Consciousness question

[cpolk]

Edit: Question answered via belated response.

 

[cpolk]

Edit: Question made irrelevent by belated response.

 

[HypnoPsi]

Toilets, thermostats, whatever, also perform certain functions, and their mechanisms are aware (conscious) of whether or not the conditions are met to perform them.

But to understand your beliefs about consciousness it would be nice to know your thoughts on micetraps and thermometers?
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HypnoPsi

 

[HypnoPsi]

Yes, you are adding something. You are asking how something "generates consciousness", when these definitions "are consciousness". "Generates" implies something more than what is there. There is not merely seeing the tree, there is "awareness" of the tree, or other similar words. The consciousness Pixy is describing for you is perfectly adequate to describe my experience with the world and with my thinking. Rather than saying that I am eliminating something, you should be justifying the phrase "generates consciousness", and the semantic a priori assumption that it is something that needs to be generated in the first place. The evidence strongly supports the idea that it is the assumptions in your question that prohibit it from an answer that satisfies you.

Okay, so you're going with the "information processing is conscious awareness" line. How did you determine this? How do you feel about toilet cisterns, thermostats, micetraps and thermometers? Which are conscious and which aren't?
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HypnoPsi

 

[cpolk]

But to understand your beliefs about consciousness it would be nice to know your thoughts on micetraps and thermometers?

I'm wondering, firstly, why? And secondly, what good would it do, if we are discussing using completely different definitions of "counsciousness"?

I need to know your definition of "consciousness" before we can take it further. Does it require intelligence? Does it require the "human condition" of observing the world through the perspective in which our bodies are designed to do so? Tell me, what is your definition, and do you have a minimum requirement, and if so, what is your scale based on.

 

[HypnoPsi]

Your turn. What is your definition and scale of awareness?

I've never claimed to have a definition and/or scale of awareness other than that I am conscious of my thoughts, self and surroundings, etc.,. I'd go along with the Glasgow Coma Scale for brain injured patients, of course, but I do not claim to know the true nature of consciousness - not even remotely.

Oh yeah, right. And imbuing a cistern and/or thermostat with consciousness, no matter how rudimentary or limited, seems rational????

If the tank cannot determine whether or not it is full, which is essential to its function, how can it function? This does not mean it has the ability to be intelligent or to learn or that it "thinks".[/quote]I'm not accusing you of thinking that toilet cisterns think. I'm quite convinced you're leaving that type of thing to brains and complex computers.

But why does a cistern have to "determine" whether the tank is full or not? Why does a thermometer have to "determine" whether it's time to turn the heating off or on? Surely all of this can/does occur mechanically. Why say that is consciousness/awareness?
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HypnoPsi

 

[HypnoPsi]

If it were not aware of the tank water level and pressure, how would it refill when necessary?

A toilet cistern refils by mechanics and nothing more. Why does it need to be aware that the tank is empty?

The term "consciously aware" is redundant, isn't it?

If you are saying these two words are equivalent then, yes.

So you think that being "alive" is also necessary for consciousness? Yes or no?

No.

Okay, thus you think that toilet cisterns are conscious..... So now....

... go into your bathroom, take the lid off the toilet cistern, flush and watch what happens closely. Then, look at yourself in your bathroom mirror and ask yourself firmly just how sensible you think all this skepticism/atheism/materialism stuff really is when it leads you to believe a toilet cistern is actually conscious and/or aware (however limited that awareness might be). Ask yourself with total honestly if there is any way this whole thing that you're into might not just be another faith-based mind-control/brain-washing cult. Really, really think about it.

What defines life exactly? Is a virus alive? What about a computer virus?

Completely irrelevant.

Well... in your case you don't require life to assume consciousness. But I am pretty interested in whether or not you think computer viruses are conscious.

Your turn. Give me your definition and measure of consciousness.

All I know is that I am aware of my self, my surrounding and my thoughts and my feelings. I have absolutely no idea of how to measure internal awareness in myself or another.
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HypnoPsi

 

[PixyMisa]

Well, for a start. A the mercury/alcohol in a thermometer on it's own still displaces the glass tube and the air around it. The only difference with a thermostat is that it's thermemeter displaces a pressure gauge that turns the central heating off or on. In both cases the air pressure results in the displacement of physical matter. What exactly is supposed to be creating consciousness here? Why one and not the other?

That's it. That's the difference. That's why one is conscious and not the other. One does something that the other does not. Which has already been explained to you ad nauseam.

 

[PixyMisa]

Remind me?

My post is still there.

You think that cisterns and thermostats are conscious but not thermometers and mousetraps, yes?

Yes. A mousetrap is very briefly conscious, then it dies. It is only ever conscious of a single event.

Do you have any other examples?

Yes.

 

[PixyMisa]

A toilet cistern refils by mechanics and nothing more. Why does it need to be aware that the tank is empty?

Because otherwise it would not refill the tank.

Okay, thus you think that toilet cisterns are conscious..... So now....

... go into your bathroom, take the lid off the toilet cistern, flush and watch what happens closely. Then, look at yourself in your bathroom mirror and ask yourself firmly just how sensible you think all this skepticism/atheism/materialism stuff really is when it leads you to believe a toilet cistern is actually conscious and/or aware (however limited that awareness might be).

Neither skepticism nor atheism are required. Materialism (or naturalism) is required, but then, it is the only metaphysical system that has allowed us to make any sense of the universe at all. Your continuing inability to distinguish between these concepts just illustrates your own perpetual self-inflicted ignorance.

Ask yourself with total honestly if there is any way this whole thing that you're into might not just be another faith-based mind-control/brain-washing cult. Really, really think about it.

It's entirely logical and fully supported by observation. You, on the other hand, cannot even offer definitions. You can't understand or even remember the simplest and most direct answers. Instead of addressing the point, you revert to ad hominem attacks. Why? What do you hope to prove by this?

 

[HypnoPsi]

I'm wondering, firstly, why? And secondly, what good would it do, if we are discussing using completely different definitions of "counsciousness"?

I need to know your definition of "consciousness" before we can take it further. Does it require intelligence? Does it require the "human condition" of observing the world through the perspective in which our bodies are designed to do so? Tell me, what is your definition, and do you have a minimum requirement, and if so, what is your scale based on.

Consciousness to me is being aware of things. In the case of a human being that includes, self, thoughts, surroundings, feelings, etc.,. For myself, I limit consciousness to most of the animal kingdom and nothing else. I certainly don't think cisterns or thermostats are conscious.

So, let's take your conscious cistern. Do you think it is aware of that one variance of tank full/empty (and, presumably, nothing else at all) at some very rudimentary level?
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HypnoPsi

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Why? How many "eternities" do you think is necessary? I think one should suffice just nicely.

And this is exactly my point. You state that this higher realm doesn't really need any even higher realm to tell it how to work, it just does. Why can't we just skip a step and say that OUR universe just works?

 

[cpolk]

I've never claimed to have a definition and/or scale of awareness other than that I am conscious of my thoughts, self and surroundings, etc.,. I'd go along with the Glasgow Coma Scale for brain injured patients, of course, but I do not claim to know the true nature of consciousness - not even remotely.

That is a problem in discussions, if we can't define what it is we are discussing.

So, you are looking at consciousness from the "human" condition?

But why does a cistern have to "determine" whether the tank is full or not? Why does a thermometer have to "determine" whether it's time to turn the heating off or on? Surely all of this can/does occur mechanically. Why say that is consciousness/awareness?

What is the difference between "mechanical" and "chemical" responses to stimuli? A toilet has to "determine" because that is the function it was designed for. If it didn't "determine", we would say that it is broken, and we would fix it so that it would determine.

It is a mechanical process, and one that is easily recreated, but the cistern is still expected to be aware of the water pressure and level. Not in the sense that you and I are aware of it; but only in the sense of "full" or "not full". There isn't anything like, "almost there... just about.... just a little bit more..."; when its design is aware that it is refilled (all naturally, through mechanics), the flow will stop.

Again, this is not an "aware" in the sense that we experience it, because we are not designed to function as a toilet. Our "aware" comes from the perception allowed by our biological design, which allows more than a single "full/empty" mechanism.

Now I think I see where you are coming from, so let's keep this according to human functionality.

Are you "aware" of your stomach? Other than basic "hungry/full" assessments, can you diagnostically analyze your stomach? Your stomach creates enzymes that your body and brain recognize as abstract descriptions such as "hunger". This is an electrical and chemical process, and has been replicated with drugs. In coma patients, their stomach continues to create enzymes and send signals to the brain, even though the brain is not functioning. Does this mean that your stomach is "aware" of your brain? Even if "you" aren't "aware" of your stomach, is your brain "aware" of your stomach, when your brain is functioning?

That is kind of an awkward question, but I want an understanding of how much "intelligence" and "perception" plays into your definition.

Edit: Forget all of this. Let's begin the conversation anew, taking consciousness at the level of human perception.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Yes, as does everything else ... and, there is no such thing as cause-and-effect. What do you mean?

I did not try to claim there is no cause and effect. I merely state the universe works as it does because it doesn't work any other way. Why does the universe go through all the trouble of existing at all? Yeah, some people are working on that one .

As I was getting around to, basically if you posit that the only way our universe could function is if some "divine computer" was telling it how to function, that "divine computer" by such logic, needs a "super divine computer" telling it how to function, ad infinitum.

 

[PixyMisa]

Consciousness to me is being aware of things. In the case of a human being that includes, self, thoughts, surroundings, feelings, etc.,. For myself, I limit consciousness to most of the animal kingdom and nothing else. I certainly don't think cisterns or thermostats are conscious.

So, let's take your conscious cistern. Do you think it is aware of that one variance of tank full/empty (and, presumably, nothing else at all) at some very rudimentary level?

Obviously. Otherwise it wouldn't refill the tank.

What it is not is self-aware. It has awareness of one condition (the state of the tank) but no awareness of its own processes.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

The definitions of conciousness are getting all crazy in here!

Let us make it clear.

I have heard many times, it isn't about being "aware", but truly AWARE! It's not just "feeling" it has to FEEL! I am not just here doing this, I am HERE, doing THIS!

Define the difference between a p-zombie and an actual being without just resorting to emphasizing the language with the shift key or quotation marks. What is the difference between being "aware" and being TRULY AWARE. What sort of weird ture scottsman fallacy is this?

We are aware because we have been designed (via natural processes) to BE aware. Our awareness is an entirely natural and purely mechanical thing, in the same way my computer's OS is the same thing. We have self referencing capabilities, which is not just HOW we are aware of ourselves, that IS our self awareness. If our brains were not programmed with the ability for the program to refer to itself, our awareness would be purely "this is here" without any sort of internal monologue over it, and as a consequence our ability to think out a problem would be very limited.

When someone says a toilet cistern has to be aware of the water level, they are not operating on this "truly aware" nature you define the word by. What you are operating under is the self referencing nature of being aware. When that person defines "aware", they merely mean the mechanical process of doing what it does. That's the only awareness it is ever capable of, by design. I myself don't use that definition of "aware", as I tend not to use that term when I program various flags, but I can see it's validity in a sense. If the toilet had the ability to render itself in a processor by some series of logic gates, then it would have the awareness you define the word by, self referencing. Very rudimentary though.

What is the "smallest unit" of awareness? A rather islly question, because in order to define something like that you have to define awareness, and it is very clear that we are operating on totally different definitions. His is purely mechanical. The self awareness capabilities a human has are totally absent from a toilet because it lacks self reference programming. It is merely aware in the sense that it acts directly based on what is occuring. That's purely mechanical. Nothing more. For more, you have to DEFINE the more. For example, a self awareness ability. And, no, the toilet lacks that.

What are the mimimum requirements to build an awareness process? Keep in mind the process itself is the awareness as far as we have been able to discern. Also keep in mind this. We do not know yet. Nor do we need to know to conclude that awareness is a mechanical process. One can confirm stars exist without having to discover the mininmum requirements for stars to be born.

 

[HypnoPsi]

the mercury/alcohol in a thermometer on it's own still displaces the glass tube and the air around it. The only difference with a thermostat is that it's thermemeter displaces a pressure gauge that turns the central heating off or on. In both cases the air pressure results in the displacement of physical matter. What exactly is supposed to be creating consciousness here? Why one and not the other?

That's it. That's the difference. That's why one is conscious and not the other. One does something that the other does not. Which has already been explained to you ad nauseam.

Nope you've not been clear enough on this point at all. So let's say we've stuck a tiny little pressure gauge on the end of the thermometer. Let's also imagine it has a little hook on it that connects to the On/Off switch for the heating. You now have your thermostat regulator that allows the heating to be switched On/Off as the mercury/alcohol expands and contracts.

Now, why, specifically is the regulation of variance between two possibile states important to cause consciousness? A mousetrap has two possibile states as well, live or sprung, but it can't regulate the two....

Why does that regulation cause consciousness and/or why do you believe that regulation is consciousness?
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HypnoPsi

 

[PixyMisa]

We do know what is required for self-awareness: A second logic unit that is aware of the first. ("Sel awareness" is a misnomer, of course. You are only aware of parts of yourself. There are mental and physical functions going on all the time that you have no awareness of at all.)

The complexities of the human mind are things like learning, memory, vision and language. Self-awareness is one of the simplest things we do.

 

[PixyMisa]

Nope you've not been clear enough on this point at all.

It has been explained to you at least a hundred times. The problem is at your end.

So let's say we've stuck a tiny little pressure gauge on the end of the thermometer. Let's also imagine it has a little hook on it that connects to the On/Off switch for the heating. You now have your thermostat regulator that allows the heating to be switched On/Off as the mercury/alcohol expands and contracts.

Right. It's a thermostat.

Now, why, specifically is the regulation of variance between two possibile states important to cause consciousness?

Because that's all that consciousness is.

A mousetrap has two possibile states as well, live or sprung, but it can't regulate the two....

Right. It is conscious for one brief instant as it changes state, then it dies.

Why does that regulation cause consciousness and/or why do you believe that regulation is consciousness?

Depends how you define consciousness. If you define it as awareness of your surroundings, and ability to direct a response to events according to your own needs - a perfectly reasonable definition - then that's it. Thermostats are conscious; thermometers are not.

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

Fine. So what exactly is your minimum system for the generation of consciousness?

And...

Explaining your answer either way, is a thermostat conscious?
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HypnoPsi

Anything that minimally exhibits sentience, sapience, and awareness of self is a system that has consciousness.

Is a thermostat conscious? Not by a long shot. But that's based on my definition of conscious, which seems different than others in this thread.