Compassion for Theists?

Ya just don't get it, doggy.

I do feel compassion. If I didn't, there'd be no quandry, no post.

The OP wasn't about feelings, or really about me personally.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Given that we do feel compassion, personally, for people who believe and spread superstition and irrational ideas... given that we have to live and work with them... how -- in practical terms, not just generalities -- do we do that, and at the same time work effectively toward ensuring that our schools teach hard science, that our government remains secular, etc.?

Yes, I write my representatives. I communicate with like-minded people, encourage them to be politically active.

But at work, do I ignore the email that falsely claims that Madison and Adams were evangelicals?

What about my niece and nephew? It breaks my heart that my brother allows them to be raised believing that demons are real. But til they're of age, I hold my tongue.

That's what I'm talking about, Willis.
Who should be the one to decide what is best for your niece and nephew? YOU?? No way jose. You are deceiving your relatives. If you don't hold truth as a high priority then what do you believe? Truth isn't important? Only the truth you want to expose? You think you have a right to indoctrinate your niece and nephew with your philosophy? Have your own kids and indoctrinate them. Don't complain about others lying and you are deceiving your own relatives. This post was dishonest in that you did not explain that you did not want to learn to be compassionate to religious people till now. You need to look at your values and see if you aren't fooling yourself. You may find people won't believe you if you deceive enough. I know I am going to question anything you say now.
 
Who should be the one to decide what is best for your niece and nephew? YOU?? No way jose.... You think you have a right to indoctrinate your niece and nephew with your philosophy?
This is getting very tiresome. I'm just about fed up with it.

READ MY POSTS!

You even quoted me: "til they're of age, I hold my tongue".

While they're minors, it is up to their parents to determine what they're taught.

I respect that, and I've said so EXPLICITLY. Why you choose to claim that I've said the opposite is beyond me.

Feeling compassion for theists isn't the same as agreeing with their superstitions, btw. My position isn't "philosophy". Philosophy is what they're having injected into their impressionable brains by their Xian mother with the tacit permission of their father and grandmother who know better.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a skeptics' board. Theism and religion are faith-based... they are not skeptical.

Religion = superstition. Demons aren't real. The Biblical God isn't real. They're being taught a load of bunk.

I'm new to this board, but I understand who you are now. The non-sequiteurs give you away. No wonder you're thread-poison.

<washes hands>
 
I understand some of what Piggy is feeling.

I had a similair experience when working in the "cow belt" in India at the height of the "hindu supremacist" movement. Suddenly had a feeling that I was in Germany as the Nazis were gaining strength. A feeling that intolerant (and unwashed) bigots were about to take over the nation. Scary.

The fact of the matter is that unfortunately, fundamentalism is a much more powerful rallying cry than sanity and reason. Reason and logic need intelligence to be appreciated. Jesus (or Ram or allah) doesnt.

And intelligence is in short supply
 
Regardless of what you do religion will exist. If religious people want to push through bad legislation, you should oppose it, however it really shouldn't matter if they are religious or not bad laws are bad laws. If you want to complain about religious people lying OK but by your own statement you have deceived your own family.
In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.
If you want to be credible then you need to avoid accusing them of lies. You seem to think that it doesn't matter if you associate with your nephew and niece even if you seem pretty sure that your brother or sister would object to it if they knew who you really were. True? Not true? Why would you associate with your niece and nephew if you know you brother/sister would object?
Religion is not going anywhere in a hurry. Religious beliefs may cause problems but religious people are just as limited as you. If you remove religion what will take it's place? It is those destructive beliefs such as teaching religious bs in public schools and anti homosexual attitudes which suppress a good part of our population that are important. Most of the trappings of religion are harmless or even good for people. So you need to focus on the beliefs and not the people or the religion. They are just casualties of their past experiences as much as child abusers are casualties of their past. By the way I am probably in a minority here so don't worry about fitting in here.
 
Thanks, burrahobbit. That sums it up nicely.

What makes matters worse is an active, organized, concerted effort to provide mis-information to people and spread lies about legitimate sources.

That's a big part of the dilemma -- how to get along with individuals while simultaneously dedicating your life to fighting the things that give their lives meaning.

Believers around here are victims of a culturally embedded and essentially ubiquitous program to indoctrinate them from the cradle up.

They are fed a steady stream of misinformation about history and science, and brought up to believe that it comes from God, and that there is a conspiracy in the courts, the universities, and the secular world in general to promote the word of the Devil. On top of it, they're told that they're commanded by God to convert anyone who doesn't believe, and everyone they don't convert will be tortured for eternity.

That's powerful medicine.

Still, I feel an obligation -- to myself, to my country, to my species -- to do what I can to prevent theocracy from taking hold, and to break this vicious cycle that dooms so many kids to a life of falsehood and duplicity, and in today's America goes hand-in-hand with an anti-science movement that threatens our health and well-being.
 
Piggy's Avatar said:
Location: The Golden Buckle on the Bible Belt

Piggy, do you live in North Texas? I've read enough of your posts to know that if you do live in North Texas, we should probably hang out. We'd probably get along well.
 
I think it is a mistake to be aggressively anti-religion. It will create more problems than it resolves. It will also serve to prove their misconceptions about atheists. But again I am a minority here. A more important goal would be to try to make sure that all children are properly cared for and raised in loving caring household. Out of that upbringing we will have the most sane, logical healthy people regardless of their religious/atheist beliefs.
 
Dogdoctor, I am with in your sentiment but I would like to point out that I have witnessed in my own family very damaging treatment of kids that because of their religious beliefs they truly believed they were doing the correct thing. I have no doubt, they were opperating with the best intentions.
 
I'm an atheist skeptic in the Bible Belt. Often tempted to leave family and friends and light out for the territory where people have a little more sense and tolerance.

It's hard to feel free here. You feel like if everyone knew what you thought, you'd be an outcast. In my case, my job would be in danger, and many in my family would disown me if they knew the full extent of my "unbelief", that I am unsavable and unrepentant -- I'd have no access to my niece and nephew, no chance to give them my perspective on things.

Meanwhile, the Xians go on about how they're "persecuted". Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Still, we can't just shut up and sit down. We can't sit idly by and let the "God squad" erode our liberties, teach nonsense to our kids, and stuff the pockets of charlatans.

But in the last week I've had two encounters that put me in a quandry.

The details don't matter. But here's the gist....

Most folks who believe in all that religious claptrap are sincere. They can't see past it. And they're never going to.

They're never going to.

Obviously, the tendency toward religious thinking is built into our brains. We are pattern-seeking, meaning-creative, anthropo-centric critters. If all memory and evidence of religion were destroyed at midnight EST tonight, it would rise up again spontaneously tomorrow. People would "see" and re-invent God all over again, and nothing we say could stop them.

So my question is this....

How can one be a compassionate skeptic?

CAN one be a compassionate skeptic?



Hello Piggy.

Sorry to be joining the debate so late. Some interesting things have been said on both sides. I will say that I think it possible to be a compassionate skeptic in the sense that you seem to be interested in (of being able to clearly disagree with theists without hurting them) but that (A) I have never been able to figure out how to do this, and (B) it does not seem to me to have ever been very effective. I have pasted in here a little illustrative story that I wrote a few years ago, which seems to address your question. I then got a little carried away and added some more to the end of it.

-----------------

'The Cuddly Kitten'

You are standing by the side of the road with a stranger, who we’ll call Mr. X. A car comes down the road, and Mr. X steps out in front of it and gets run over. So now he is lying there very badly injured, and you ask him “why the hell did you step out in front of that car?” He answers: “Well, I’d had a terrible day. All sorts of bad things had happened to me, and it occurred to me that it would make me feel a lot better if I just had a soft little kitten to cuddle. So when that thing, which I must now admit to have looked like a car and sounded like a car, came down the road I so needed it to be a cuddly kitten that I just assumed that it was, and stepped out in front of it to get it to stop so that I could pick it up”.

What do you say to Mr. X? Think well before you answer, as his position - belief against reason on the basis of desire - is qualitatively identical to all positions of irrational religious and ideological faith. It is more overt and extreme, but in fundamental principle it is the same. Do you say to him “There there…. I understand entirely; and how could a person who was in your terrible position have done otherwise”? If so then you would have substantial company, as this what ‘we’ - in the rational philosophy/science/engineering community - have been saying for hundreds of years to those who still live mainly by ‘faith based knowledge’. We have been watching them kill each other and die, torture and be tortured, succumb to easily preventable famines and easily curable disease epidemics, and be ruled/exploited by an apparently endless succession of blatantly self serving human monsters; throughout Africa and the Middle East, and to a slightly lesser degree in all of Asia and Latin America. Our “there there” understanding and sympathy, and careful avoidance of any hint that we might think them better off without their irrational beliefs (to be, of course, desirably ‘politically correct’, ‘post-modern’, and solicitous of their sensibilities) does not seem to have been of much service to them. To bring the problem back to the relatively simple case of Mr. X: Might it not be kinder, in the ‘long view’ of trying to prevent a repetition once he gets out of the hospital, to say to him “Well, I’m sorry to be giving you this bad news, but I’ve got to tell you that belief against reason just can’t fly. Reason is nothing but the output of our newer and higher ‘executive level’ brain structures. It thus provides our most reliable understanding of reality. It is predicated directly upon our observations of the behavior of our knowledge in relation to reality. [Basically, how well can it be seen to work? What kind of knowledge can be seen to work best?] It is thus not a separate ‘procedure’ or ‘faculty’, to be heeded or overridden at the whim our older brain structures and thus older mind components. In this sense – that it is observable that we simply have nothing better – attempts to override it are a little like attempts to cut with a wooden saw that which you are having trouble cutting with a steel saw. They must necessarily end badly.

If we can see that we owe this consideration to Mr. X then can we avoid its extension to all who are now damaging themselves and others, and our planet, through their maintenance of ‘faith based knowledge’? Can we point to any qualitative difference between the cuddly kitten belief of Mr. X and, for example, belief that the universe is being maintained by an ‘omnipotent loving father God’ who uniquely favors each one of the opposed national or ethnic or tribal groups who now hold it? Are not both beliefs just as obviously false and insane? In our story Mr. X runs up against reality in the form of the car. But just switch on your TV news station and you will see Palestinians and Jews, and Serbs and Albanians, and Hutus and Tutsis; and even - it has to be said - US soldiers and Islamic Jihadis in Iraq, running up against reality in the form of each other. Are not the underlying causes, and the results, identical? Are these people really being killed by our old catch-all excuse “the human condition”; or are they being killed by obvious and preventable stupidity? At root; by nothing grander or more mysterious than criminally lousy educational systems?

If we continue to download into our children’s minds all sorts of irrational garbage (for example, about invisible supernatural beings, who are at the same time both one being and three beings) as a special form of knowledge that is superior to what can be criticized through reason (in being instead representative of the actual state of reality) then we can expect our species developmental history to continue as the kind of road demolition disaster movie that it has obviously been for about the past 7,000 years. ‘Garbage in, garbage out’ applies to biological computers as inexorably as it applies to electronic computers. And Voltaire’s dictum, that: “Those who continue to believe absurdities will continue to commit atrocities” is graphically illustrated every time we turn on CNN. We have been promoting wars, pogroms, famines, disease epidemics, and localized environmental disasters for as far back as we can see. I think that we are now headed for ‘the big one’, with our foot trying to mash the accelerator pedal through the floor.

To get back on topic (compassion for Christians and Christianity). No! Move away. Fight against Christianity (and Islam and Judiasm and the rest) to the limit of your ability. I don’t know how much time we’ve still got - within which to effectively turn or hit the brakes – but the indications that it isn’t long are coming in thicker and faster every day. Our 70 year old ‘gentlemen’s agreement’ with institutionalized irrationality (called ‘postmodernism’, and ‘separate magisteria’) has been breaking down for at least the past 15 years (ref. ‘The Fundamentals of Extremism’ and ‘The Republican War On Science’), and whatever was left of it fell – along with the towers – on September 11th. The intellectual battle lines are now clarifying fast. Those who staff the Discovery Institute, and many similar corporate funded ‘independent think tanks’ throughout the world understand clearly what they are trying to achieve, and why. Our intellectual leaders (Dawkins, Dennett, Wilson, Rees, ….) are taking their battle positions. And the old ghosts - of Voltaire, and Tom Paine, and Robert Ingersoll - are stirring. If there was ever really a good time for solicitous compassion towards institutionalized irrationality, I think that it is now past.

Enough for now. I will write more if you, or others, wish to respond to this.

BR,

Scimystic :)
 
Piggy, do you live in North Texas?
No. Although my location is listed as "The Golden Buckle on the Bible Belt" which as we all know is IRL DelRio, Texas, I'm in the Deep South. (I don't consider Texas part of the South. Texas isn't part of anything. Texas is Texas.)

Down the road from me is a subdivision (called a "Plantation") named after a leader of the Confederacy, with Confederate soldier on the sign. Down the road in the other direction is a school named after that same leader (no classes yet due to districting squabbles, so a church meets there currently) and just beyond that a subdiv named after one of the founders of the KKK. These are middle and upper-middle class homes.

Within a 5 mile radius of my house there are approximately 3 dozen churches. It is illegal to serve or sell alcohol on the Xian sabbath. My state legislature just passed a resolution claming that the "the Ten Commandments" (whatever those might be) are the foundation of the legal system of every Western civilization in history, affirming bogus quotations falsely attributed to presidents Madison and Adams, and supporting the display of said commandments in public buildings, even using tax money to distribute copies.

Last year the State Superintendant of Schools attempted to ban evolution from the public school curriculum. One county in the metro area of the state capital is fighting to put anti-evolution stickers back on its textbooks.

Ralph Reed is running for Lt. Governor, and the state Xian Coalition denies any knowledge of his taking casino money to help squash their competition, although this is now a matter of public record.

When stores decide to welcome customers with "happy holidays", they're threatened with boycott for waging a "war on Christmas". A mayor was defeated in a neighboring town in the last election in large part because he failed to call the town tree a "Christmas tree" -- even though he issued a public statement on the front page of the paper explaining that he in no way meant to be "PC" or inclusive of non-Christians, people literally stopped their cars in the street to tell him he'd lost their vote because of that tree.

Around here, freedom and science are endangered species.
 
Piggy, I can sympathize with your situation. When you see dangerous nonsense spread around, and when people want to make it impact your life, it is particularly frustrating and frightening. At the same time, you can understand how these people came to their beliefs but you can also see how terribly it is impacting thier individuality, thier self-esteem, or freedom. Things which you value, but they apparently do not.

I'm lucky in that I live in the US in New England. Low incidence of fundamentalist anything here. The main problem up here, probably due in part to our extreme tolerance, is a preponderance of new-agey beliefs. I don't have an answer for you on how to combat it. I think we need to keep the interchange non-emotional and just present factual, scientific information to counter whatever nonsense these people are presenting.

I've encountered this recently in a social group I belong to. A member of that group is anti-vax and was spreading his, what I think is harmful, information through my group. I tried countering by presenting some factual, medically based information. I can't tell members of my group what to believe but I as sure as hell can expose them to alternate information. Whether they'll evaluate the quality of the information and decide for themselves, I can't say. I sure hope they will. It's a small thing, and yet I was very hesitant to do it because it might cause conflict in a group of people I care about. But I couldn't in good conscience just stand by and let what I consider dangerous, pseudo-scientific information and scare mongering spread.

It may be a small contribution, but sometimes it's the best we can do. I don't want to be righteous and adamant with this group because I think that may turn more people away then I'd want. I want them to think for themselves. But I guess I'm also a coward because I don't want to loose the comraderie of this group of people.
 
supercorgi, it sounds like the new-agers are a bit easier to deal with. Maybe you have a better chance up there. I mean, they don't think you're an agent of the Devil or anything, right?

One good thing that's coming from hearing others chime in here is that I'm seeing that the fundie problem may be semi-localized. Around here, it seems like they're thick as the grass everywhere you go, and you get to feeling like the whole durn country's gone over the edge.

Are the new-agers anti-science, or more just victims of wishful thinking?
 
When stores decide to welcome customers with "happy holidays", they're threatened with boycott for waging a "war on Christmas". A mayor was defeated in a neighboring town in the last election in large part because he failed to call the town tree a "Christmas tree" -- even though he issued a public statement on the front page of the paper explaining that he in no way meant to be "PC" or inclusive of non-Christians, people literally stopped their cars in the street to tell him he'd lost their vote because of that tree.

Around here, freedom and science are endangered species.

These last two anecdotes, at least, are examples of freedom in action. I wouldn't revise the endangered species list just yet.
 
These last two anecdotes, at least, are examples of freedom in action.
Only in the sense that any boycott and any vote is "freedom in action", including boycotts of integrated restaurants and votes for segregationist candidates.

The thinking behind them is warped. These actions stem from a perception that only Xian viewpoints should be in the public arena.

Not only should one be allowed to call it a Xmas tree, one MUST call it a Xmas tree. One should not recognize that some folks shopping at the local Wal-Mart may be celebrating Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or the solstice as well as, or instead of, Xmas.

So while these actions in themselves are dependent upon existing freedoms of thought, speech, and action, they are not evidence of a support for equal freedoms of thought, speech, and action for others.
 
Piggy
Let me be clear that I'm not comparing fundies to rapists, etc.
Why not it’s appropriate. Especially considering what fundies do to their kids. And before you jump to a conclusion I’m not talking about physical abuse.

Maybe you don't see it as much where you live, but where I'm from (and all across the country, even if you don't see it locally) there are organized groups who are well funded and politically active, who are supporting efforts to get evolution out of the schools and Jesus in the schools, who support the Bush administration's well-documented efforts to censor and meddle with science, who want theocracy, who are completely dedicated to "taking back America for Jesus" and much more.
Since you’re new here, you may not realize that ruach1 is one of those people. He just seems to have calmed down a bit recently.


Ossai
 
Only in the sense that any boycott and any vote is "freedom in action", including boycotts of integrated restaurants and votes for segregationist candidates.

...

So while these actions in themselves are dependent upon existing freedoms of thought, speech, and action, they are not evidence of a support for equal freedoms of thought, speech, and action for others.


I'm curious to know in what way you think freedom of thought, and so forth are implicated by this boycott and this vote. After all, if anti-Walmart boycotters and anti-incumbent voters succeed in these instances, no protected freedoms of thought, speech and action are affected. If they fail, likewise.
 
I'm curious to know in what way you think freedom of thought, and so forth are implicated by this boycott and this vote. After all, if anti-Walmart boycotters and anti-incumbent voters succeed in these instances, no protected freedoms of thought, speech and action are affected. If they fail, likewise.
I'm afraid I can't be sure I understand what you're saying.

But if you're saying something like "How does this threaten freedom, b/c it doesn't change any laws even if it succeeds?", then here's what I think:

First, a caution not to make too much of my examples. That single post wasn't intended to be a complete argument: A and B and D therefore Z. In other words, "around here, freedom and science are an endangered species" is just another statement in the row -- it's not intended to follow as a logical conclusion exclusively from what precedes it.

That said....

People who support freedom and equality for all do not go around supporting segregation (the example from the other post -- not something that's done here publicly anymore by anyone but a very small radical fringe), and by the same token they do not go around threatening boycotts of businesses who are inclusive of other religions and who fail to tailor their greetings to recognize their religion alone. Nor do they withdraw political support for a candidate because he fails to explicitly call a holiday decoration a Christmas decoration.

The whole "war on Xmas" lunacy is just part of the picture. But it's that mentality -- the feeling that Xianity is THE religion of the US, that it should be privileged -- is the same mentality that is behind efforts to remove evolution from the schools, introduce creationism in the schools, hold Xian prayer in schools and single out non-Xian kids by asking them to excuse themselves, post Xian symbols in courts, pass state legislative resolutions declaring "the Ten Commandments" to be the foundation of American law, attempt to restrict judicial review of establishment cases, allow public tax dollars to support religious schools, etc.

Religious freedom, separation of church and state, the separation of powers and its accompanying checks and balances, and the integrity of science are under attack, in my state and at the federal level.

The threats to boycott Wal-Mart and the campaign to oust the mayor are not direct and sufficient evidence of this -- nor did I intend them to be. They are merely symptoms of the same wrong-headed, narrow-minded fundie mentality that also give rise to these ills.
 

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