Compassion for Theists?

[Dogdoctor]

Sorry, but I don't understand all that. I'm not one for philosophy. But I will say, "these religious people" are my family, my co-workers, my fellow citizens.

It's not philosophy it is sociology

No. Fundamentalists don't compromise.

Sorry then you are SOL. However if you look at the world and just see fundamentalists then you are screwed anyway.
Sounds to me like you don't want to be compassionate and instead are looking for people to agree to hate religious people. Just some more religion bashing so you can count me out.

 

[Piggy]

It's not philosophy it is sociology

Sorry, but questions like "Who are you? What do you value in life?" sound like philosophy to me. Sociology may not be hard science, but it's not as soft as all that!

If you look at the world and just see fundamentalists then you are screwed anyway. Sounds to me like you don't want to be compassionate and instead are looking for people to agree to hate religious people. Just some more religion bashing so you can count me out.

I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

How is this "religion bashing"?

When I look at this person in front of me, this human being, who really suffers because she thinks she isn't "smart like

" and cries, in all sincerity, because of that, and who only knows her way, can only see her way, who has given her whole life to it, is devoted to it and finds meaning in it.... How can I say to her, "It's all a lie", whether by word or deed?

Is it arrogant? Maybe. All I can say is, that's the situation I had on my hands at 3:15 this afternoon. I don't believe for one minute that this person is "stupid" (her term) or that I'm smarter. But because I can do certain calculations in my head, she thinks so. And that's tragic. She's been convinced somewhere down the line that she needs to "lean on God", and to me, that's a crime. She could contribute so much more, BE so much more, if she hadn't been trained to believe that! Instead, she's convinced that her only role is to be a "suffering servant". No one had the right to do that to her!

Now, if by "religion bashing" you mean simply asserting that religion = superstition, then I don't think you honestly belong on a skeptics' board, any more than I would honestly belong on a Xian board. If I joined a Xian board, I'd be a mere troll.

If you're going to make outrageous and false statements, then I'd be very happy if you would do us all the favor of counting yourself out.

 

[Dogdoctor]

I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists in response to my question. I guess if you are only relating to fundamentalist then you aren't likely to make any progress along the lines of learning compassion or you can change your answer.
In answer to your original question. Yes people can be skeptical and have compassion for religous people except that certain people will have a hard time. This because they harbor beleifs that will not allow them to be compasionate.

 

[Piggy]

You were the one who brought up fundamentalists in response to my question. .

My aplogies for the misunderstanding.

My response re fundamentalists and a "workable compromise" comes from my actual experience. The people I deal with day-in and day-out are fundamentalists. And they don't compromise. You're saved or you're not, and if there's any doubt, you're not.

I didn't mean to imply that everyone who believes in God is a fundamentalist. Sorry about that.

 

[Piggy]

Yes people can be skeptical and have compassion for religous people except that certain people will have a hard time. This because they harbor beleifs that will not allow them to be compasionate.

Well, just saying that people can be skeptical and have compassion doesn't do much good without putting rubber on the road.

How (in real, day-to-day terms) does one have compassion while insisting that these people really don't have a right to take over the government, institute theocracy, and teach myth as science?

If you think I'm exaggerating, then come on down and get an eyeful!

This isn't some abstract question I'm asking here. I'm talking real people, real time.

Blaming the skeptics by claiming that we must "harbor beliefs that will not allow them to be compassionate" is... well, let's just say it's unsupported and not useful.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Hell, that's like saying white people are persecuted, or men are persecuted, or rich people are persecuted, although you can certainly find fringe pundits willing to sell that bill o' goods, too.

Nice the religion of christianity being replaced by the religion of PC

Im not sure a poor white male from sunnyslope (the white ghetto here), applying for a NAACP college scholarship would agree with you

blanket statements are for those with something to sell (yes I am aware I am selling an anti PC existence)

 

[Corpse Cruncher]

Unless you work for a Church or a religious society why should your job be in danger? That makes no sense and does it not fall under the loose term of prejudice?

An old adage, you can't chose your family but you can choose your friends, applies. I am of the mind that when families and friends dictate what you can or can not do. That should serve as a warning. No one person has the right to demand you follow their wishes. This is effectively what they are doing. You are a member of the family and as such they should afford you some respect to the way you lead your life. Naturally the reverse also applies without question.

While in my home, my family and friends respect my wishes, when in theirs I respect theirs. As the soul carnivore in the family, this has caused many wars and bl**dy conflicts. I stood burning in hell on my side and they stood baking in the sun on theirs. I offered the compromise and held firm until it was accepted. The truce is not an easy one, the way I live my life is alien to them. They now accept that it is my life to live as I see fit and as such I accept it is theirs to live like weirdos

As for compassion, you have that if you so chose,it makes no difference if you are a skeptic or otherwise. Skepticism in not about hatred, and asking if a skeptic can be compassionate is suggesting it is.

I am compassionate, I am, of sorts, a skeptic. Being a skeptic does not rule my life and neither should it. It is a state of mind, a raised awareness, nothing more.

 

[ruach1]

Sorry, but questions like "Who are you? What do you value in life?" sound like philosophy to me. Sociology may not be hard science, but it's not as soft as all that!

I don't believe you've actually read my posts. I have made no statements asserting that all believers are fundamentalists. I have made no statements advocating hate. And I would appreciate it very much if you wouldn't make false claims such as that.

How is this "religion bashing"?

Is it arrogant? Maybe. All I can say is, that's the situation I had on my hands at 3:15 this afternoon. I don't believe for one minute that this person is "stupid" (her term) or that I'm smarter. But because I can do certain calculations in my head, she thinks so. And that's tragic. She's been convinced somewhere down the line that she needs to "lean on God", and to me, that's a crime. She could contribute so much more, BE so much more, if she hadn't been trained to believe that! Instead, she's convinced that her only role is to be a "suffering servant". No one had the right to do that to her!
Now, if by "religion bashing" you mean simply asserting that religion = superstition, then I don't think you honestly belong on a skeptics' board, any more than I would honestly belong on a Xian board. If I joined a Xian board, I'd be a mere troll.

If you're going to make outrageous and false statements, then I'd be very happy if you would do us all the favor of counting yourself out.

What's really at issue here? Religion or inter-relationship stress? You mentioned being the only skpeptic/atheist in an all-Christian atmosphere. Now you're talking about your girlfriend who seems intimidated by your intelligence and therefore retreats into what she perceives as her strengths--namely religion-- albeit the suffering servant aspect.

So who's doing the suffering here? Is it you for having to swim in displeasing Christianity? Is it your girlfriend whom you are possibly making suffer because you always have to have the upper hand in the relationship and therefore play to her weaknesses? Or is it the both of you who somehow feel threatened by the beliefs of those closest to you and are tired of the constant pressure?

 

[Dogdoctor]

Piggy I am a skeptic who feels great compassion for even fundamental Christians. I could tell you what I know about how to accomplish that but perhaps you should consult a psychologist or psychiatrist as they should be much more capable of helping you accomplish the goal of learning compassion for religious people. They key to learning compassion as far as I can see is to learn to love yourself . This means you have to examine yourself and look for problems and fix them. Once you have resolved all your problems then you need to learn about religious people. If you can understand yourself and why you do what you do and religious people and why they do what they do then compassion should happen since it is normal. I lack the scientific lingo for talking about psychological issues since I have studied it only minimally.

 

[Piggy]

Unless you work for a Church or a religious society why should your job be in danger?

I live in a state with "at will" employment laws, which means you can be fired on the spot if your employer gets tired of your face, or if your breath smells like rutabaga. Y'know the radio evangelist who got the thank-you note from Alito? Buddies w/ my boss.

 

[Piggy]

What's really at issue here? Religion or inter-relationship stress? You mentioned being the only skeptic/atheist in an all-Christian atmosphere. Now you're talking about your girlfriend who seems intimidated by your intelligence and therefore retreats into what she perceives as her strengths--namely religion-- albeit the suffering servant aspect.

No, this isn't my girlfriend, this is a co-worker!

All the back-story would be too much, but maybe I need to shed a little light.

It was this moment, and one other, that put me in the dilemma.

This woman is one of the people at work who want to save my soul because I won't say explicitly that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. For them, that's it. Period.

And people like her are actively working for causes I think are dangerous -- Christianity in government, curtailing freedom of conscience, teaching the Bible as science, teaching kids that evolution is a myth, abstinence-only sex ed, censorship and perversion of scientific research, promoting superstition at home and abroad, removing federal checks and balances, funneling money to charlatans, rewriting history to define the US as a Christian nation and the founders as evangelicals, etc.

But in that moment, when I saw her so vulnerable and human, I couldn't see her as the enemy, even if she's working for all that. In that moment, I felt her weakness and her pain, which isn't very different from my weakness and my pain, and I felt profound compassion for her, and understood that she needed her beliefs, and at this age couldn't turn them around. She had sacrificed too much for them. They color every moment of her life.

Seeing her then, the dilemma began.

On the one hand, I still firmly believe that I need to be part of the solution, that I need to actively oppose the fundamentalist evangelical agenda.

On the other hand, that means saying to good people, co-workers, family, fellow citizens, that the thing which gives their life meaning is a lie.

And that's what this post is about. How does one act compassionately toward believers, and still work for the good of the world? Or do we have to choose instead?

 

[Dogdoctor]

But in that moment, when I saw her so vulnerable and human, I couldn't see her as the enemy, even if she's working for all that.

It is well that you could not see her as the enemy. They are not the enemy. We have to cohabitate the world with them. We have to cooperate with them. They are people with beliefs different from yours. Not the enemy. People are going to believe whatever they believe regardless of any attempts to make them believe otherwise so it is counterproductive getting pissed off about it and rather foolhardy to think you can change that (much). For a productive healthy society people need to be able to have their own beliefs without creating conflicts because of these beliefs. It is in the value systems that we have that we need to find common ground.

 

[Piggy]

They are not the enemy. We have to cohabitate the world with them. We have to cooperate with them. They are people with beliefs different from yours.... People are going to believe whatever they believe regardless of any attempts to make them believe otherwise so it is counterproductive getting pissed off about it and rather foolhardy to think you can change that (much). For a productive healthy society people need to be able to have their own beliefs without creating conflicts because of these beliefs. It is in the value systems that we have that we need to find common ground.

That sounds all very nice and happy, but forgive me if it goes down like a gob of syrup.

Just because I share the world with them, just because they have different beliefs from mine, that doesn't make them not the enemy. Maybe they are.

I share the world with neo-nazis, gangsters, serial rapists, people who kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves. They have ideas that are different from mine. They are the enemy.

What the evangelical fundies are trying to do is dangerous. And they don't care for compromise. They believe they're on a mission from God, literally. They believe they are authorized by a higher power. They are fed lies, they believe lies, and they spread lies, even if most of them believe the lies.

Yes, a productive healthy society depends on the freedom to hold one's own opinion, and to find common ground.

So what do you do with people who care nothing about playing by those rules?

And what do you do with people who spread dangerous lies as fact, who support politicians who are willing to tinker with science, who support teaching superstition as fact in the schools?

Your platitudes are no help there.

On the other hand, how can we -- who believe in separation of powers, a secular government, and freedom from coersion -- actively oppose this well organized and well funded movement, without hurting people we care about, people who are, more than anyone, the real victims of the fundamentalist movement?

Cooperation doesn't seem to be an option. They're having none of it. If you don't support the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus, if you're not trying to take back America for Christ, then you're deluded by the Devil and you're part of the problem. That's how they see it.

Maybe we do have to live a double life of sorts, those of us who live and work among the fundies. Maybe we have to be compassionate to those in front of us and hold our tongues, but work like hell politically to stop them from doing what they're trying to do to this country and every part of the world they can get a toe-hold on.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Like I said you would be better off talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist who can speak with authority to you and who you might listen to if you really want to have compassion for religious people.
eta lucky most of the religious people are not fundies

 

[ruach1]

That sounds all very nice and happy, but forgive me if it goes down like a gob of syrup.

Just because I share the world with them, just because they have different beliefs from mine, that doesn't make them not the enemy. Maybe they are.

I share the world with neo-nazis, gangsters, serial rapists, people who kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves. They have ideas that are different from mine. They are the enemy.

What the evangelical fundies are trying to do is dangerous. And they don't care for compromise. They believe they're on a mission from God, literally. They believe they are authorized by a higher power. They are fed lies, they believe lies, and they spread lies, even if most of them believe the lies.

Yes, a productive healthy society depends on the freedom to hold one's own opinion, and to find common ground.

So what do you do with people who care nothing about playing by those rules?

And what do you do with people who spread dangerous lies as fact, who support politicians who are willing to tinker with science, who support teaching superstition as fact in the schools?

Your platitudes are no help there.

On the other hand, how can we -- who believe in separation of powers, a secular government, and freedom from coersion -- actively oppose this well organized and well funded movement, without hurting people we care about, people who are, more than anyone, the real victims of the fundamentalist movement?

Cooperation doesn't seem to be an option. They're having none of it. If you don't support the coming of the Kingdom of Jesus, if you're not trying to take back America for Christ, then you're deluded by the Devil and you're part of the problem. That's how they see it.

Maybe we do have to live a double life of sorts, those of us who live and work among the fundies. Maybe we have to be compassionate to those in front of us and hold our tongues, but work like hell politically to stop them from doing what they're trying to do to this country and every part of the world they can get a toe-hold on.

Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.

There is no need for this type of personal attack. I wish we could learn to discuss stuff without this kind of stuff. I know I am not perfect either. By the way I was not saying he needed help only that if he wanted to be compassinate to religious people that a professional could do a better job than me.

 

[ruach1]

There is no need for this type of personal attack. I wish we could learn to discuss stuff without this kind of stuff. I know I am not perfect either. By the way I was not saying he needed help only that if he wanted to be compassinate to religious people that a professional could do a better job than me.

No personal attack was intended. I really was "creeped out", and, yes, I do see a potentially serious problem if not checked. I was trying to use the plainest and most appropriate language to convey this to the person I was addressing. Maybe my mistake; maybe not.

And yes DD, I agree--discussions are much better without personal attacks.

 

[Piggy]

Seriously---you just creeped me out.

You need help.

Talk to a professional, and get this out before you hurt yourself or, as you say, someone around you.

I'm not going to hurt anyone, ruach1. Much less myself.

Let me be clear that I'm not comparing fundies to rapists, etc. My point to dogdoc was that there really are folks out there who need to be stopped from doing what they're doing, and saying, "well, they're just folks with different points of view" don't always cut it. Those were extreme examples, and they really are an enemy to people who want a peaceful, ordered, safe society. It's no joke.

But I'm not about to go Bronson on anyone. These things have to be done politically, legally.

Maybe you don't see it as much where you live, but where I'm from (and all across the country, even if you don't see it locally) there are organized groups who are well funded and politically active, who are supporting efforts to get evolution out of the schools and Jesus in the schools, who support the Bush administration's well-documented efforts to censor and meddle with science, who want theocracy, who are completely dedicated to "taking back America for Jesus" and much more.

This isn't some paranoid fantasy. It's grass roots real.

I'll say it again: What the evangelicals are trying to do is dangerous.

Take a look at some of the legislation being proposed, including federal legislation to prevent the US Supreme Court from reviewing 1st Amendment cases involving the establishment clause.

And it's not only here, but abroad also. Despite the fact that Xians can be (and are) tortured in N. Korea, for example, or executed in Afghanistan, they want more missionaries to go there. I heard an Iraqi Xian on the radio this morning asking the foreign missionaries to please go home b/c they are endangering Xian lives in Iraq by associating them w/ foreign occupiers. But all the fundies are interested in is spreading the Word.

I personally know fundies who think instigating global conflict is a good thing b/c it will bring on the reign of Jesus, and they'll be raptured out anyway.

These folks really do believe that those who aren't with them, are being deluded by the Devil.

I know it sounds crazy -- heck, it IS crazy -- but it's very real, and politicians are capitalizing on this "base".

 

[Piggy]

FWIW, ruach1, I didn't take it as a personal attack. You just think I'm being paranoid. I'm not. This is happening. The extreme Xian evangelical fundamentalist agenda needs to be countered. We can't afford to ignore it. To borrow the words of Mike Stipe, "They're real, they mean it."

 

[Piggy]

you would be better off talking to a psychologist or psychiatrist who can speak with authority to you and who you might listen to if you really want to have compassion for religious people.

Ya just don't get it, doggy.

I do feel compassion. If I didn't, there'd be no quandry, no post.

The OP wasn't about feelings, or really about me personally.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Given that we do feel compassion, personally, for people who believe and spread superstition and irrational ideas... given that we have to live and work with them... how -- in practical terms, not just generalities -- do we do that, and at the same time work effectively toward ensuring that our schools teach hard science, that our government remains secular, etc.?

Yes, I write my representatives. I communicate with like-minded people, encourage them to be politically active.

But at work, do I ignore the email that falsely claims that Madison and Adams were evangelicals?

What about my niece and nephew? It breaks my heart that my brother allows them to be raised believing that demons are real. But til they're of age, I hold my tongue.

That's what I'm talking about, Willis.