China

[The Atheist]

To know what people mean when they talk about "success" you have to find out what they deem to be success, and their criteria for achieving it. I'd have said a successful nation is one where most of its population are mostly content, regardless of any trade figures or treasury balances.

How do you think ordinary people achieve contentment?

Poverty? Longevity?

China has taken 800,000,000 people out of poverty in just 40 years, and has increased its GDP from 400 billion to 28 trillion in just 30 years. They've also increased life expectancy from 60 to 77 in the past 50 years.

Feel free to suggest other things that denote success, because they look pretty damned successful to me, especially when compared to their democratic neighbour of similar population.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

How do you think ordinary people achieve contentment?

Poverty? Longevity?

China has taken 800,000,000 people out of poverty in just 40 years, and has increased its GDP from 400 billion to 28 trillion in just 30 years. They've also increased life expectancy from 60 to 77 in the past 50 years.

Feel free to suggest other things that denote success, because they look pretty damned successful to me, especially when compared to their democratic neighbour of similar population.

China have said they've done all these things, whether they've actually done them is a whole different matter entirely.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

How do you think ordinary people achieve contentment?

Poverty? Longevity?

China has taken 800,000,000 people out of poverty in just 40 years, and has increased its GDP from 400 billion to 28 trillion in just 30 years. They've also increased life expectancy from 60 to 77 in the past 50 years.

Feel free to suggest other things that denote success, because they look pretty damned successful to me, especially when compared to their democratic neighbour of similar population.

This is true. They have been remarkably successful in a relatively short period of time.

Outside the major cities, of course, there is still blinding poverty, and a huge gap between rich and poor even in the cities, but that doesn't take away from the success.

The problem is of course that the CCP puts this down to "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics", when the truth is that the success only came about because it opened up, reformed and abandoned communism and socialism completely, becoming 100% capitalist.

Since Xi took over that is gone, they have a huge debt, housing and banking problem, a massively aging population pyramid that they have no hope of turning around as no one wants to emigrate to a totalitarian state, and declining investment as they turn inward and away from the world due to Xi's more aggressive and communist rhetoric and state control of industries and private companies.

And that was even before Zero covid.

So in short, I am not sure how long that success is actually going to last, but none the less up to 2010 or so it was a huge success.

 

[theprestige]

"Success." Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't success. Unless you're Paul.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

"Success." Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't success. Unless you're Paul.

If you are referring to the success pre 2010, that came from capitalism and opening up, like every other developing nation. How is that robbing Peter to pay Paul?

If you are referring to current situation, fair enough.

 

[TragicMonkey]

How do you think ordinary people achieve contentment?

Poverty? Longevity?

China has taken 800,000,000 people out of poverty in just 40 years, and has increased its GDP from 400 billion to 28 trillion in just 30 years. They've also increased life expectancy from 60 to 77 in the past 50 years.

Feel free to suggest other things that denote success, because they look pretty damned successful to me, especially when compared to their democratic neighbour of similar population.

The success of a collective doesn't always translate to individual contentment. McDonald's is a hugely successful company. Do you think most of its employees are content?

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

The fact is there a huge number of Chinese that are not content, because the reforms that allowed so many of them to get rich are being rolled back.

Now, its harder and harder to afford to live, to buy a house, to move up in the world, to get promoted.

Just look at the growing "lying flat" and "let it rot" movement amongst the youth. They are essentially giving up, as they see it as not worth their while, they don't see any future. So they coast along, doing the bare minimum to stay alive, or live off their parents.

So with an aging population, a youth with no future, a banking crisis, a housing shortage, a construction industry that is hugely in debt and which the population are no longer willing to bail out, and China was already in trouble.

Now add zero covid on top of that, people being literally locked in their apartments for 90 days at a time, huge loss of jobs and business, 20% of the GDP producing areas right now in lockdown, and 2% of the GDP being the covid testing industry, it is no wonder the population are pissed off.

China had a huge success up until 2010, that is undeniable. But that is no longer applicable.

 

[Roboramma]

The success of a collective doesn't always translate to individual contentment. McDonald's is a hugely successful company. Do you think most of its employees are content?

I've met a lot of those people who lives went from extreme poverty to varying degrees of comfort or affluence, and they certainly seem a lot better off now than they were 20 or 30 (let alone 40) years ago.
Things are going downhill now, but the major improvement's to wellbeing that began with Deng's reforms are amazing, and have influenced the lives of pretty much everyone in China.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I've met a lot of those people who lives went from extreme poverty to varying degrees of comfort or affluence, and they certainly seem a lot better off now than they were 20 or 30 (let alone 40) years ago.
Things are going downhill now, but the major improvement's to wellbeing that began with Deng's reforms are amazing, and have influenced the lives of pretty much everyone in China.

The Uighurs might disagree. Nations are not grandmothers, one is allowed to demand "what have you done for me lately" and not be content with prior improvements from an even worse state. Fixing an abscessed tooth fifteen years ago doesn't get the dentist off the hook for botching a filling today.

 

[Roboramma]

The Uighurs might disagree. Nations are not grandmothers, one is allowed to demand "what have you done for me lately" and not be content with prior improvements from an even worse state. Fixing an abscessed tooth fifteen years ago doesn't get the dentist off the hook for botching a filling today.

I'm no fan of the CCP. My view is that the growth that happened over the last 40 years could have happened earlier (to the good of everyone in China) if it weren't for Mao, etc.

You seemed to be denying the major improvements in the lives of people here in China over the last 40 years, and that's just crazy, but that doesn't mean I think the CCP should be given credit for that. At most they get the partial credit of discontinuing completely insane policy.

 

[TragicMonkey]

You seemed to be denying the major improvements in the lives of people here in China over the last 40 years

I never said that. I just said that such improvements are not the sole criteria for deeming a country successful, and depending on what criteria you do use to judge success they may not meet them.

 

[The Atheist]

China have said they've done all these things, whether they've actually done them is a whole different matter entirely.

What a classic example of denying facts because you think it doesn't fit your narrative.

The success of a collective doesn't always translate to individual contentment. McDonald's is a hugely successful company. Do you think most of its employees are content?

Absolutely.

The employment market is such right now that if they weren't at least moderately happy they'd leave and get another job.

 

[The Atheist]

Meanwhile, the CCP has decided enough is enough, and I'd say we've probably seen the last of the protests: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/...n-infiltration-and-sabotage-by-hostile-forces

Hundreds of SUVs, vans and armoured vehicles with flashing lights were parked along city streets Wednesday while police and paramilitary forces conducted random ID checks and searched people’s mobile phones for photos, banned apps or other potential evidence that they had taken part in the demonstrations.

 

[arthwollipot]

If you like totaltarian governmen and a lack of indidivual rights and freedom.
I am so tired of how some on the left sitll try to whitewash the Xi regme and the CCP.

Please don't interpret an acknowledgement of the country's success as a nation as a statement of support or endorsement, or any indication of me "liking" anything about the current Chinese government. It's the one thing I have in common with the Falun Gong protesters that were hanging out outside my building last week - opposition to the Chinese Communist Party.

 

[Darat]

The fact is there a huge number of Chinese that are not content, because the reforms that allowed so many of them to get rich are being rolled back.

Now, its harder and harder to afford to live, to buy a house, to move up in the world, to get promoted.

Just look at the growing "lying flat" and "let it rot" movement amongst the youth. They are essentially giving up, as they see it as not worth their while, they don't see any future. So they coast along, doing the bare minimum to stay alive, or live off their parents.

So with an aging population, a youth with no future, a banking crisis, a housing shortage, a construction industry that is hugely in debt and which the population are no longer willing to bail out, and China was already in trouble.

Now add zero covid on top of that, people being literally locked in their apartments for 90 days at a time, huge loss of jobs and business, 20% of the GDP producing areas right now in lockdown, and 2% of the GDP being the covid testing industry, it is no wonder the population are pissed off.

China had a huge success up until 2010, that is undeniable. But that is no longer applicable.

Ignore covid and you could be describing the UK

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

The fact is there a huge number of Chinese that are not content, because the reforms that allowed so many of them to get rich are being rolled back.

Now, its harder and harder to afford to live, to buy a house, to move up in the world, to get promoted.

Just look at the growing "lying flat" and "let it rot" movement amongst the youth. They are essentially giving up, as they see it as not worth their while, they don't see any future. So they coast along, doing the bare minimum to stay alive, or live off their parents.

So with an aging population, a youth with no future, a banking crisis, a housing shortage, a construction industry that is hugely in debt and which the population are no longer willing to bail out, and China was already in trouble.

Now add zero covid on top of that, people being literally locked in their apartments for 90 days at a time, huge loss of jobs and business, 20% of the GDP producing areas right now in lockdown, and 2% of the GDP being the covid testing industry, it is no wonder the population are pissed off.

China had a huge success up until 2010, that is undeniable. But that is no longer applicable.

A problem with the dysfunctional housing mess not much discussed is ownership. All the construction companies built on land for which they had a maximum of 70 years lease, it is still owned by the state. They then sold on the buildings as if they had freehold. But the thing is the local authorities (all the way up to regional governments) have had their finances structured so that they need to reclaim the land and lease it out to developers again at increased rents. The first estates are coming up to the end of their freehold leases in a few years and either a lot of people are going to have their houses seized without compensation or a large chunk of the Chinese state apparatus is going to disappear.

 

[GraculusTheGreenBird]

Ignore covid and you could be describing the UK

Apart from the aging population. Whilst the Uk like all developed economies has stopped having large numbers of children, this is is offset by the immigration of younger people who actually want to go there and raise a family and contribute to the economy.

China has had net emigration for as long as I can remember, there is no influx of immigrants to replace the aging catastrophe because no one want to move their, and there is absolutely nothing China can do about it unless they change government. Their population crisis is unfixable. The UKs is not.

 

[theprestige]

More and more it's looking like a lot of China's "success" has been predicated on them mortgaging their future and then not keeping up on the payments.

For example, it wasn't until 2017 that China finally figured out how to manufacture ball point pens. Sure, pretty much every commodity pen on the market was assembled in China. And most of the components could have been manufactured in China.

But prior to 2017, China was still importing the ball point nibs themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...a-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-has-finally-figured-out-how-to-make-ballpoint-pens-2017-1

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38566114

https://fortune.com/2017/01/10/china-ballpoint-pens-steel-japan/

 

[FatherLukeduke]

China is successful, and you don't think that's true, have a look at the current US/China investment balance, where China owns a trillion dollars of US bonds.

That's a sign of US strength, not weakness. Anyway, Japan actually owns more, with $1.2 trillion worth - remember when Japan was about to take over America in the 80s?

China bought all those US treasury bonds for the same reason everyone else does - they are considered a very safe bet with a guaranteed return.

China has undoubtedly had an "economic miracle" and lifted more people out of poverty (and hunger) than any time in history. It's massive economic growth is obvious to see: fields turned to cities, factories, power stations yada yada.

However there is quite a bit of scepticism about how close it's economy is to the USA's and that it might still be way off and possibly not be in a position to catch up. The cumulative effect of fiddling the GPD growth by even 1 point each year for 30 years could mean they are drastically over-reporting where they are now.

 

[The Atheist]

The cumulative effect of fiddling the GPD growth by even 1 point each year for 30 years could mean they are drastically over-reporting where they are now.

I have no doubt they've inflated the numbers, but the fact remains that you had two neighbouring countries of very similar size and population in 1970.

Wind forward 50 years and only an utter moron would deny China's made a lot more progress at lifting its people out of poverty than India.
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Meanwhile, the CCP looks like it's decided to relax the zero-covid policies a little, with a change to the idea of there being no covid to the plan of vaccinating the elderly before opening up.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/...rols-as-government-tries-to-head-off-protests

The change has nothing to do with the protests, of course...