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China

Ziggurat said:
Eclipse us? No, not really. They cannot continue their past rate of growth, too much of the low hanging fruit has already been picked.
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Looks like someone found some fruit higher up the tree.

China’s test of a hypersonic missile in space is a “game-changer” that should fundamentally alter the US’ calculations about Beijing’s military leverage, experts have warned.
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/...unch-shows-china-streaking-ahead-in-arms-race
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I had a geopolitical"come to God" moment when I looked at a Cold War map from the perspective of the USSR: a total encirclement by the US and its allies.
The current world looks very much the same from the POV of China.
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This is what I've been saying all along. Geographically, Russia has to be the enemy of the world. China likewise. Co-opting China into the system of the world has only given China levers for extortion.

China could have become a second Europe. Instead it is what it is. Put aside your Anti-americanism, and deal with the world as it stands today.
 
theprestige said:
Face is only a valuable currency for those economies that trade in face.
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This is true. And China is currently one of those nations.

They need to show the world that their way is the best; they have the best economy, the best society, the best response to covid, the best response to climate change.

That need is fundamental to modern China under Xi.

Edited to add: Face is precisely why they will pull out all the stops to meet their carbon goals, and will likely do so.
 
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Yeah, hypersonic missiles are not a game-changer.
A MIRV ICBM is going just as fast and can use decoys for evasion.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
I had a geopolitical"come to God" moment when I looked at a Cold War map from the perspective of the USSR: a total encirclement by the US and its allies.
The current world looks very much the same from the POV of China.
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Why, though? Why does China find itself surrounded by enemies?

Because it has made enemies on all sides. It can't help but do so. That isn't our fault, that is theirs.
 
Ziggurat said:
Why, though? Why does China find itself surrounded by enemies?

Because it has made enemies on all sides. It can't help but do so. That isn't our fault, that is theirs.
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Disagree.
It's a geographic property, nothing to do with politics per se.
Just like every European country was surrounded by enemies for most of history, China is surrounded by enemies because of its borders.
The US situation is an absolute abnormality in world history, not the norm. Stop using the outlier as the standard to measure by.
 
There is also an historical factor.

In the past 200 odd years, China has been repeatedly invaded and humiliated. The Opium wars, the unequal treaties, WW2 to name three. So not only does China imagine itself surrounded by enemies, it knows it is and if it shows weakness it will be attacked again.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Disagree.
It's a geographic property, nothing to do with politics per se.
Just like every European country was surrounded by enemies for most of history, China is surrounded by enemies because of its borders.
The US situation is an absolute abnormality in world history, not the norm. Stop using the outlier as the standard to measure by.
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Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
 
Ziggurat said:
Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
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We sort of figured that out after two consecutive wars that killed off millions and under the threat of neighboring countries that could annihilate all life in Europe within minutes of starting a war.
And now that that threat is (sort of) gone there is a significant rise in parties that would like to go back to the 'neighbors are enemies' situation.
See Brexit, Poland, Hungary and all the populist parties.
 
Ziggurat said:
Your own examples disprove you. Yes, the USA is unusual. But European countries have figured out how to not be enemies with all their neighbors despite their history. China's history is an excuse, not the reason.
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having Russia and North Korea at your border is not a good reason to be a bit defensive?
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
We sort of figured that out after two consecutive wars that killed off millions and under the threat of neighboring countries that could annihilate all life in Europe within minutes of starting a war.
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China suffered even more deaths than Europe. So why didn't they learn?

Is it that they did it to themselves?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
having Russia and North Korea at your border is not a good reason to be a bit defensive?
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North Korea is a client state. And Russia is an ally. So no, that's really not an explanation. Their border problems are with other countries, like India. And previously with Tibet.
 
Ziggurat said:
China suffered even more deaths than Europe. So why didn't they learn?

Is it that they did it to themselves?
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They did learn. Hence it's all of China against their neighbours, rather than the warlords era. Come what may.

But you are not really interested in looking at how massive cultural, historical and geographic differences shape countries and their foreign policies.
You are only interested in claiming anything and anyone not towing the US line is evil and wrong.
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
They did learn. Hence it's all of China against their neighbours, rather than the warlords era. Come what may.

But you are not really interested in looking at how massive cultural, historical and geographic differences shape countries and their foreign policies.
You are only interested in claiming anything and anyone not towing the US line is evil and wrong.
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Yeah, no. That isn't the issue. Rather, I am unwilling to excuse bad behavior on the part of the CCP which has placed them in a position where most of their neighbors hate them.
 
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