China

[The Great Zaganza]

China right now is at war with its financial oligarchy, not the West. It's bellicosity is meant to scare off outsiders so they can deal with their internal problems.
But I think that they are dealing with the symptoms, not the causes of why some have become insanely rich in China. The 2nd wave of the Chinese ultra-rich will find ways to shield themselves from the CCP.
The Party might have seen the mistakes Yeltsin made, but corruption is part of China to a level that the CCP never will be.

 

[Boudicca90]

Wake up. China isn’t going to reduce its global impact. They have no interest in doing so. And we cannot get it to either.

They already are, we just have to help them get there.

Comparative Assessment of China and U.S. Policies to Meet Climate Change Targets

China's problem is they are a coal-producing country first and foremost, so the rapid rise in industrialization and modernization over the last 20 years has led to a huge amount of pollution.

But they are already making progress through government mandates which are far stronger than anything we have been doing here, instead of relying on the private sector to save us. Which it won't, not without government action backing it up.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Because China became the industrial center of the world, it also became the industrial waste center of the world. It has a very personal reason to go green.

 

[Boudicca90]

When Beijing or Shanghai is covered in so much pollution that you couldn't see a mile in any direction, it really looks bad for the Chinese government. And they know this.

 

[Roboramma]

China has PTSD from the time of European colonialism, and it is kept alive by a narrative that is helpful to The Party.
Chinese belligerence should be seen as the delayed reaction to the Opium wars, second world war with Japan etc.
It's the reaction of a victim that feels the need to become an oppressor to rid itself of a past feeling of helplessness.
US policy in the region needs to focus on supporting allies, not on confronting China directly until Beijing gets its mental **** together.

I don't think that's the psychology. I think it comes down to the Chinese seeing themselves as the heirs to the world's greatest empire, and it's only truly civilized people, and it's just a blip that it was eclipsed by the west for a few centuries, but their time is coming back again.

Just my personal impression, though.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I don't think that's the psychology. I think it comes down to the Chinese seeing themselves as the heirs to the world's greatest empire, and it's only truly civilized people, and it's just a blip that it was eclipsed by the west for a few centuries, but their time is coming back again.

Just my personal impression, though.

exactly.
now pair that with the memory of the Barbarians putting themselves in charge of the Middle Kingdom.
The Insult! The Insolence!
It's almost a repeat of the Mongol conquest, only they had the grace to let themselves get properly "civilized".

 

[Ziggurat]

The 2nd wave of the Chinese ultra-rich will find ways to shield themselves from the CCP.

More likely, the 2nd wave will be the CCP.

 

[Ziggurat]

Because China became the industrial center of the world, it also became the industrial waste center of the world. It has a very personal reason to go green.

Only within their borders. They don’t care about the world in general. Just look how their fishing fleets are trashing delicate marine ecologies.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Only within their borders. They don’t care about the world in general. Just look how their fishing fleets are trashing delicate marine ecologies.

Yes?
And the rest of the world cared about anything outside their borders when they moved the most polluting industries to China and India?

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but there is no real difference between China and the rest of the world there. And at least China tries to keep the pretense of following international agreements about pollution rather than ripping them up unilaterally to score some political points at home.

 

[Boudicca90]

Yes?
And the rest of the world cared about anything outside their borders when they moved the most polluting industries to China and India?

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but there is no real difference between China and the rest of the world there. And at least China tries to keep the pretense of following international agreements about pollution rather than ripping them up unilaterally to score some political points at home.

China still has a long way to go, and we need to put pressure on their irresponsibility, but they are no worse than anyone else in the world.

In fact, that've been making improvements at a rate that's much faster than ours, and they didn't throw a poop-throwing baboon into Presidential office to stifle themselves like we did to ourselves for the past 4 years.

They care about climate change because they have just as much to lose as anyone else. Shanghai is the third most populous city in the world and it's right on the coastline.

 

[Ziggurat]

And at least China tries to keep the pretense of following international agreements about pollution rather than ripping them up unilaterally to score some political points at home.

That doesn't make any sense. Why is lying better than honesty? You're really stretching here.

 

[Ziggurat]

China still has a long way to go, and we need to put pressure on their irresponsibility, but they are no worse than anyone else in the world.

In fact, that've been making improvements at a rate that's much faster than ours

Improvements in what? Seriously, what metrics are you even using here?

and they didn't throw a poop-throwing baboon into Presidential office to stifle themselves like we did to ourselves for the past 4 years.

Of course. It's always Trump, all the time.

If you would honestly take Xi over Trump, then you're one of those fools who would continue to praise Stalin even as you were being taken away for execution, convinced that there was some mistake that would get sorted out.

 

[Boudicca90]

Improvements in what? Seriously, what metrics are you even using here?

Orphia Nay and I have already provided sources with metrics.

Their carbon emissions per capita are still WAY under ours and they still haven't come remotely close to the amount of pollution we have contributed to the planet.

We also benefit from a lot of our products being made in China, which also contributes to the carbon they generate. China is still industrializing and is still more of a producer than a consumer nation like we are.

Fact check: Is China the main climate change culprit?

Conclusion: We are still mostly to blame.

Of course. It's always Trump, all the time.

If you would honestly take Xi over Trump, then you're one of those fools who would continue to praise Stalin even as you were being taken away for execution, convinced that there was some mistake that would get sorted out.

I would choose neither, since I don't want authoritarians of any stripe running this country again. But if I had a gun to my head and had to choose, then Xi. As least he's not a moron.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

That doesn't make any sense. Why is lying better than honesty? You're really stretching here.

Because to keep up the pretense you actually have to DO something, and as has been pointed out to you, China is at least acting.

 

[Ziggurat]

Because to keep up the pretense you actually have to DO something, and as has been pointed out to you, China is at least acting.

We are too. You don't have to sign up to a treaty you won't even abide by in order to do something.

And what exactly do you think China is doing, anyways? They aren't phasing out coal. And to the extent that they're doing anything (ie, adding more power generation capability besides coal, lowering pollution levels), it's stuff they would have to do anyways.

 

[Ziggurat]

Orphia Nay and I have already provided sources with metrics.

Their carbon emissions per capita are still WAY under ours

Yes. Because they're poor. But it's rising, and will continue to rise.

and they still haven't come remotely close to the amount of pollution we have contributed to the planet.

By what metric? CO2? That's not really pollution.

If you measure stuff which IS pollution, for example the amount of plastic dumped into the ocean, they're actually far ahead of us.

We also benefit from a lot of our products being made in China, which also contributes to the carbon they generate.

Sure. But also somewhat irrelevant. Either it's OK to manufacture stuff, in which case "blame" doesn't even make sense, or it's not, in which case everyone is to blame be they the producer or the consumer.

I would choose neither, since I don't want authoritarians of any stripe running this country again. But if I had a gun to my head and had to choose, then Xi. As least he's not a moron.

The irony is that Xi is the one who would be holding the gun.

 

[The Atheist]

Because China became the industrial center of the world,...

That's a point I like to press a lot.

All of these anti-China people who see China as an enemy buy goods made, or partly made, in China.

If they put their money where their mouths are and stopped supporting China financially I'd have some respect for their position.

 

[theprestige]

In fact, that've been making improvements at a rate that's much faster than ours

A clapped out Lada going from ten to twenty MPH is accelerating a lot faster than the Tesla cruising at 90 MPH.

---

A couple years ago, China landed a jet on an aircraft carrier for the first time. It's an impressive feat, and it's doubly impressive how quickly they've gotten into jet fighter carrier operations. No doubt they'll be landing UCAVs on carriers pretty soon, too. That will bring them about up to date with the current state of the art as practiced by the USN. By comparison, the USN has taken a lot longer to get to this point, from when it first got started. But it's doubtful that China will be able to continue that same pace of innovation into the future. Most of their rate of improvement has been them playing catch-up with well-established and mature technologies and processes. It's not like they're genius innovators eating everyone else's lunch with their visionary advances.

Their two greatest advantages, cheap labor and a totalitarian government, are about as primitive as it gets.

I suppose we probably don't need to talk about the role that corporate and military espionage has played in China's rate of improvement. Or or about how their military-industrial baseline was stuff the Soviets had already figured out and shared with them (or that they stole from the Soviets).

The Chinese rate of improvement is impressive, but not impressive enough to carry the rhetorical weight that's being loaded on it here.

 

[theprestige]

That's a point I like to press a lot.

All of these anti-China people who see China as an enemy buy goods made, or partly made, in China.

If they put their money where their mouths are and stopped supporting China financially I'd have some respect for their position.

Let me know when Australia builds out an industrial plant that can compete on price and quality, and I'll happily shift my buying power over to our antipodean comrades.

 

[The Atheist]

Let me know when Australia builds out an industrial plant that can compete on price and quality, and I'll happily shift my buying power over to our antipodean comrades.

Australia has nothing to do with it. I don't believe there's a single thing you can't already buy that has zero Chinese input.