Can this qualify as a challenge?

If you think that there is a god (an assumption), what do you expect him to do to prove that he is such a god?

I can easily think of a hundred ways how a god could offer such a strong evidence to its existence that people dismissing it would be reduced to conspiracy theorists. If a sun stops being a sphere and reforms itself into fiery letters stating the god's existence, of course people could still say that NASA faked it or that it's a practical joke of some inconceivably advanced alien race, but then they'll be the ones wearing the tinfoil hat.

But this is not the kind of evidence I would expect from the woman. She does not claim to be a god, she claims to be a true prophet. I expect her to demonstrate it with accurate prophecies. If she announces the location, day, hour and minute of several major earthquakes in the next year and gets them all right, that is an example of almost perfect evidence for her claim, as accusations of deception would be implausible. Guessing the contents of a box is not nearly so perfect - but hey, it's still good! If she does that, the door will be wide open for her to bring even better evidence. If she fails, she remains a woman saying stuff.

Different people will require different levels of evidence; some will believe anything you tell them, some will never believe you no matter how much evidence you bring. I have met people who refused to believe simple, provable mathematical truths on grounds of their philosophical reasoning. Does that make the proofs invalid? Of course not. - So does it really matter whether you convince this or that particular skeptic? Some people already believe the woman (you being an example). If she wins the Million Dollar Challenge, millions more will believe, and if she keeps doing stuff like that, believers will keep pouring in. I think that's what should matter to you when it comes to the importance of winning the challenge.
 
Dear Wombatwal and Fellow Forumers,

Dear P.C.
You sound like a likable intelligent man, so I wish you well in your quest.
But obviously intelligence is no antidote for blind faith, which I think you have.
Change my beliefs?
Well for a start I have no beliefs.
Why would I want to go for your religion anyway, why not any of the Gods in Hinduism, the Muslim or Jewish form of your God, Thor the God of thunder to some, the Pagan gods, I could go on page after page on all of the Gods and religions in this world.
They all believe they have the right God to pray to. Are you and people of your ilk right and everyone else is wrong.
Please try and use some logic.

Thanks a lot for your compliment and best wishes in my quest. I am just a simple person, maybe of average to above average intelligence. I am not a loquacious person, like a talk-show host or a politician. If you wish to know my personality, you may visit @www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/morrisby.htm to see the results of the Morrisby Test Battery I took in 1989.

Did you know that it took me eleven years before I believed that the spirit we talk to is none other than Jesus Christ? Did you know that had I proven Him wrong with regards to His revelations of the birth of Jesus on May 23 and death and crucifixion on August 17, I would have abandoned my faith in Him and called Him a fake? Is this what you call "blind faith"? I used my intelligence before I believe in something, especially with regards to faith. What is at stake in faith is the destination of my soul--either to spend eternity in Heaven or in Hell. Eternity is a very, very long time as compared to my short, finite physical existence here on Earth.

I know that there a many gods in this world, and many religions too. All of them may be false gods, except for one, the true God, to whom every knee shall bend and every head shall bow. So we search for this one true God, continually searching until we find Him. I used my head instead of my heart to find Him. What do you think separates the true God from the false gods? Plain logic, please, even without the use of any holy scriptures.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
...
What do you think separates the true God from the false gods? Plain logic, please, even without the use of any holy scriptures.
...

Plain logic: We have no valid evidence for gods.

We have evidence for the fear of death. It's probably the most stressful issue for human beings, because death seems quite inevitable. There are numerous ways to deal with it, one of them being the belief in a so-called higher power; whatever his/her/its name.

Without getting too deep into semantics: Concerning gods, belief seems to be the exact opposite of evidence.
I do not want to open this Pandora's Box, PeaceCrusader. If you wish to discuss religious topics, perhaps you should open a new thread in the "Religion & Philosophy" subforum.

As one might deduct from my signature and forum nickname, two decades of religious upbringing left a lot of scars for me to deal with. Done by humans, in the name of god.
 
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Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

I've already answered this question of what a successful test would do to my beliefs and I've answered it in this very thread. I'll repreat myself:

A successful test would lead me to believe that there is a way to defy the laws of physics and to know information without using any energy to learn it. This would cause me to believe in God because only a universe with a God could (in my opinion) grant itself exceptions to physical laws. However, it would not cause me to believe in Jesus, the Bible, or even that God "did" the work in the test - only that he allowed the work to go forward.

I doubt that there is anything that could ever cause me to believe in the christian religion. Frankly, I don't want to worship a God who judges me based on whether I worship him.

I have mentioned that the spirit who appropriates the body of the woman in the Philippines, Mrs Maria Liwayway Alvaran, knows what the sealed boxes contain. I believe that that spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. And Jesus Christ is associated with Christianity. Since I believe in that spirit, I consider myself as a non-denominational Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ.

If the spirit passes the tests, could we accept that it was Jesus who was able to identify the contents of the boxes? What objective and verifiable evidences do you want to prove that the true God exists?

I think that if you believe in any god, don't you think that it is imperative that you worship him? Don't you think that you also have to follow his commandments? I do not know how you can believe in a god without worshiping and obeying him.

The commandments of Jesus are love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength; and love your fellowmen like you love yourself. To me, these commandments are acceptable, practical, logical after I have found the true God.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
...
If the spirit passes the tests, could we accept that it was Jesus who was able to identify the contents of the boxes? What objective and verifiable evidences do you want to prove that the true God exists?
...

The "spirit" will not take the test, PeaceCrusader, Mrs. Alvaran will. If she applies properly, agrees to and performs the test.

Let's discuss conclusions of said test afterwards, with data in our hands.
 
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Did you know that had I proven Him wrong with regards to His revelations of the birth of Jesus on May 23 and death and crucifixion on August 17, I would have abandoned my faith in Him and called Him a fake? Is this what you call "blind faith"?

PC, the answer is yes. That is the very definition of what I would call "blind faith." I have no wish to insult you and you have been unfailingly polite to everyone here but I have noticed that your description of your journey to Christ has not matched the way you seem to think. You have demonstrated here a great willingness to consider the smallest coincidence to be unshakable evidence and to consider a single piece of evidence to be proof of every aspect of your belief system.

For example, "Gotacural" is not AIDS. The prophesy was wrong. But you cannot be convinced of it. You have literally rewritten the prophesy and invented some intermediate advice from God that clears up the apparant contradiction.

But even if the prophesy was correct, all it would prove is that somebody knew the future. It wouldn't say anything about how he knew it or whether the knowledge was from God or from Satan or from aliens or anything. It wouldn't say anything about whether God gave commandments, whether the Bible correctly lists them or whether Jesus actually came to earth to modify them. You, however, read all of that meaning into one prophesy. It is not there.

I think that if you believe in any god, don't you think that it is imperative that you worship him? Don't you think that you also have to follow his commandments? I do not know how you can believe in a god without worshiping and obeying him.

As I said, even if God exists, there is no reason to believe he requires or even desires worship. There is no reason to think that this God is the same as the one written about in the Old Testament, New Testament, Bhagvad Ghita or anything else. All it would prove is that there is a God. You would then need some evidence that the things you think are his commandments really are. And you would then need even more evidence that following his commandments is a reasonable thing to do.

If I landed on your shores, proclaimed myself king and started making up lawys, what would you do? Now pretend that I really am the king of a far-off land and in that land everybody obeys everything I said. If I just demanded that people in your country obey me, what would you do? Now imagine that I send soldiers and warships to enforce my laws. Would you obey me even then?

The title God does not confer any special authority over me. I am free. I will not worship somebody just because he is God. Nor will I obey him.

The only way you could think differently is if you already were predisposed to believe that this "God" is the same as the "God" in the Old and New Testament and that those books are literally true.

This shows me that you always were a person of faith and that all you are doing is searching for some small crumb of evidence to reinforce the beliefs you always had.
 
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Dear Members,

I would like to accept the challenge but firstly, I would like to know if this qualifies.

A spirit revealed that Jesus was born on May 23 and was crucified on August 17. His birth year is 33 BC and the year He died is 1 BC. I therefore claim that the revelation that Jesus was born on May 23, 33 BC and was crucified and died on August 17, 1 BC are true and correct.

If this claim is acceptable, I wish I would be able to prove scientifically that the revelation is correct.

Your help in presenting this as a challenge will be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

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Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,



I have mentioned that the spirit who appropriates the body of the woman in the Philippines, Mrs Maria Liwayway Alvaran, knows what the sealed boxes contain. I believe that that spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. And Jesus Christ is associated with Christianity. Since I believe in that spirit, I consider myself as a non-denominational Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ.

If the spirit passes the tests, could we accept that it was Jesus who was able to identify the contents of the boxes? What objective and verifiable evidences do you want to prove that the true God exists?

I think that if you believe in any god, don't you think that it is imperative that you worship him? Don't you think that you also have to follow his commandments? I do not know how you can believe in a god without worshiping and obeying him.

The commandments of Jesus are love God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, and with all your strength; and love your fellowmen like you love yourself. To me, these commandments are acceptable, practical, logical after I have found the true God.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

My first assessment of this thread remains unchanged, proselytizing in disguise.
 
Did you know that had I proven Him wrong with regards to His revelations of the birth of Jesus on May 23 and death and crucifixion on August 17, I would have abandoned my faith in Him and called Him a fake? Is this what you call "blind faith"?

Dear PC,

Let me ask you this: If the spirit fails to identify those 25 objects, will you accept that the spirit was wrong and is not Jesus Christ?
 
Dear Burner and Fellow Forumers,

Dear PC,

Let me ask you this: If the spirit fails to identify those 25 objects, will you accept that the spirit was wrong and is not Jesus Christ?

If He fails the test, then I will accept that He is wrong and He must not be God. And He must not be Jesus Christ. Because I believe that Jesus Christ is God. And God knows everything. He is omniscient.

How about you, Burner, would you accept and believe that the spirit must be God to know all these things if He passes the test?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
Dear Skeptigirl and Fellow Forumers,

First post:

Last post:

My first assessment of this thread remains unchanged, proselytizing in disguise.

Thank you for your assessment. This thread is about putting the spirit to a test. My first question was whether proving the dates revealed by a spirit regarding the birth and crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ are acceptable. Jeff Wagg of JREF says that this information received from a spirit is not testable. However received information from a spirit about sealed boxes is testable. If that is the case, then I am willing to have the spirit tested about the contents of sealed boxes.

I have great confidence that the spirit can easily pass the tests. That is why my desire is to win the Challenge to pay off my mortgage and retire so that I can do what I like to do.

I do not force anyone to believe in what I believe in. You are responsible to your own soul, if you believe you have one. I am not responsible for your soul. If we had talked about religious matters in the course of our conversation on the topic at hand, it just so happened that I had to relate my own personal experiences. If you are offended by my mentioning religious matters, please pardon me. No malice intended.

FYI, I have a topic in the Religion Forum of JREF entitled "Is the Qu'ran from the true God?". This topic is strictly religion that is why I want it be discussed in the proper forum and not here.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
If He fails the test, then I will accept that He is wrong and He must not be God. And He must not be Jesus Christ. Because I believe that Jesus Christ is God. And God knows everything. He is omniscient.

Doesn't the Bible tell us not to put God to the test?
 
How about you, Burner, would you accept and believe that the spirit must be God to know all these things if He passes the test?

If this woman passes the test and wins the million, I will believe whichever explanation she gives. If she says she did it trough a spirit and the spirit is Jesus Christ, I will believe her.

Important note: I expect the spirit to give _EXACT_ description of the object inside the box. If she says "It's a small round object" - that will not suffice. Then again, if she says "It's a 1997 Chuck Berry Anthology CD" it will be considered a hit.
 
First post:

Last post:

My first assessment of this thread remains unchanged, proselytizing in disguise.

Yeah, it's what I've been saying from the start, too. However, let's see where the dolt leads us -- into the wilderness, or out of it. :D

M.
 
If the spirit passes the tests, could we accept that it was Jesus who was able to identify the contents of the boxes? What objective and verifiable evidences do you want to prove that the true God exists?

I'm not sure if you've actually read any replies here at all, but this question has been answered many times, by myself and others. If this lady can prove she can find out what is in a box, all that proves is that she can find out what is in a box. It says nothing about how she found out. There are many different ideas about how people can do that, an although all of them are paranormal, this simple test will do nothing to tell them apart, it will simply mean that we know something paranormal has happened.

I have mentioned that the spirit who appropriates the body of the woman in the Philippines, Mrs Maria Liwayway Alvaran, knows what the sealed boxes contain. I believe that that spirit is the spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. And Jesus Christ is associated with Christianity. Since I believe in that spirit, I consider myself as a non-denominational Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ.

This question isn't really related to the challenge, but I would find your answer interesting. You are apparently a Chistian, and presumably believe the bible is more or less true in most places, even if it is not all taken literally. However, the behaviour of your spirit appears to be nothing like the behaviour of the Christian god. God did not possess people and talk through them, he talked to them and let them spread the word. He did not make obscure prophecies, correct or not, he made very specific statements of what would happen and then made sure that everyone knew about it - killing all the firstborn males is not the sort of thing you can miss. He was very forward about proving he existed - when he wanted to make it clear he talked to important people out of burning bushes and handed out giant stone tablets. Talking to a couple of unknown people via an even less well known person just isn't the same.

Why is it that you believe this woman is being possessed by Jesus when nothing she says or does bears any relation to anything ever believed by Christians?
 
Why is it that you believe this woman is being possessed by Jesus when nothing she says or does bears any relation to anything ever believed by Christians?
My thoughts exactly.

Why on (heaven and) earth is the Son of God doing cheap party tricks in the Phillipines?

(OK, the climate, and the lifestyle, and the easy going people, and.... oh, no. That was the Romans, wasn't it?)
 
Why on (heaven and) earth is the Son of God doing cheap party tricks in the Philippines?
(Is that a heretical question?)


I believe there will be no test. A real spirit will not allow a test that undermines the faith in it's existence and a fake spirit will not be allowed a test that would prove it doesn't exist.

I do though wish that there would be a test so this matter could be settled. Either we would all be in awe and forced to reexamine our beliefs or PC would realize how much of his life has been waisted following a voice on a tape.

Why is it that PC cannot take the test himself? Does he believe his faith is not strong enough for the spirit to talk directly to him?
 
Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,

I believe there will be no test. A real spirit will not allow a test that undermines the faith in it's existence and a fake spirit will not be allowed a test that would prove it doesn't exist.

I do though wish that there would be a test so this matter could be settled. Either we would all be in awe and forced to reexamine our beliefs or PC would realize how much of his life has been waisted following a voice on a tape.

Why is it that PC cannot take the test himself? Does he believe his faith is not strong enough for the spirit to talk directly to him?

I would like to inform you that I have already paid my air fare. In two weeks, I will depart for the Philippines. As I mentioned before, this ten-day stay in the Philippines will be more like of a business trip than a vacation where I will explain to the woman the protocol of the Challenge and talk to the spirit.

I can talk to Him directly if I am in the Philippines, just like the other listeners present during the sessions. But when I am in Australia just like now, I cannot do that. However, He makes His presence known to me by the "knocking" of the geckoes or house lizards at home and at work. That is the signal that He told us of His presence that will assure us that He is watching over us and He is not far away.

I would like to take the test myself but it is not my body that is appropriated by the spirit; it is that of the woman's. I think there is a logical reason for this. One will know straight away that the woman is not impersonating or posing as somebody else by the tone of the voice--a male voice versus a woman's voice. And it is not in one's head but every body in the session hears Him and can record on tape the session.

According to the spirit, He had designated two women who would help Him in the salvation of mankind. The first is the Blessed Virgin Mary who was taken up to Heaven after she died and the second is this woman whose spirit first resided in a princess in Egypt some two thousand years ago. When that woman named Reneliniyindi died, the spirit was reincarnated to another body. The body of the woman in the Philippines is the 177th body where that spirit resided. Joan of Arc was one of those bodies.

So sorry, Dan O, much that I like to be the medium, I cannot because I am not designated. That is not my role.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
Dear Cuddles and Fellow Forumers,

I'm not sure if you've actually read any replies here at all, but this question has been answered many times, by myself and others. If this lady can prove she can find out what is in a box, all that proves is that she can find out what is in a box. It says nothing about how she found out. There are many different ideas about how people can do that, an although all of them are paranormal, this simple test will do nothing to tell them apart, it will simply mean that we know something paranormal has happened.



This question isn't really related to the challenge, but I would find your answer interesting. You are apparently a Chistian, and presumably believe the bible is more or less true in most places, even if it is not all taken literally. However, the behaviour of your spirit appears to be nothing like the behaviour of the Christian god. God did not possess people and talk through them, he talked to them and let them spread the word. He did not make obscure prophecies, correct or not, he made very specific statements of what would happen and then made sure that everyone knew about it - killing all the firstborn males is not the sort of thing you can miss. He was very forward about proving he existed - when he wanted to make it clear he talked to important people out of burning bushes and handed out giant stone tablets. Talking to a couple of unknown people via an even less well known person just isn't the same.

Why is it that you believe this woman is being possessed by Jesus when nothing she says or does bears any relation to anything ever believed by Christians?

You are right. I am a Christian, a plain follower of Jesus Christ and non-denominational.

Did you know that in the Bible, it says that God will use us to talk to people? These are in Matthew 10:17-20, Mark 13:9-11, and Luke 12:11-12; 21:12-15. Matthew 10:20 states: “For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” And Mark 13:11 states: “But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.”

With regards to prophecies, the Bible says in John 16:13, “and he (the Spirit of truth or the Holy Spirit) will show you things to come.” And that is what the spirit tells us. He gives prophecies, like the nineteen that were published in the Sunday magazine supplement of a Manila daily newspaper, the birth of three-eyed babies, the coming chaotic World War III which will start at Spratly Islands west of the Philippines, the loss of ALL jobs in the world, the drought and famine that will be worse than that experienced by Israel during ancient times, etc. He told us what happened in the past like the dates when Jesus was born and was crucified and died. Prophecies are what separates the true God from the false gods. The false gods do not know what will happen in the future.

Why do I believe this woman in the Philippines? I believe that this woman is being used by a spirit who I accepted to be the spirit of Jesus after doubting it for eleven years (1983-1994). I have faith in what the spirit says. The body of the woman is just used by the spirit to talk to the people. Actually, what the spirit endorses and explain are things that are in the Old and New Testaments. You may read in my website what His sermons are, His messages, prophecies, prayers, poems, proverbs. Please, Cuddles, present in this forum which are not in the Holy Bible and I will try my best to explain them.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo
 
Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,



I would like to inform you that I have already paid my air fare. In two weeks, I will depart for the Philippines. As I mentioned before, this ten-day stay in the Philippines will be more like of a business trip than a vacation where I will explain to the woman the protocol of the Challenge and talk to the spirit.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for you?


I can talk to Him directly if I am in the Philippines, just like the other listeners present during the sessions. But when I am in Australia just like now, I cannot do that.

What, there are no telecommunications facilities in the Philippines? I know that isn't true.

Are you a liar? Answer: Yes!

However, He makes His presence known to me by the "knocking" of the geckoes or house lizards at home and at work. That is the signal that He told us of His presence that will assure us that He is watching over us and He is not far away.

Yeah, right. Moron! No, double that -- Idiot-moron!

I would like to take the test myself but it is not my body that is appropriated by the spirit; it is that of the woman's. I think there is a logical reason for this. One will know straight away that the woman is not impersonating or posing as somebody else by the tone of the voice--a male voice versus a woman's voice. And it is not in one's head but every body in the session hears Him and can record on tape the session.

According to the spirit, He had designated two women who would help Him in the salvation of mankind. The first is the Blessed Virgin Mary who was taken up to Heaven after she died and the second is this woman whose spirit first resided in a princess in Egypt some two thousand years ago. When that woman named Reneliniyindi died, the spirit was reincarnated to another body. The body of the woman in the Philippines is the 177th body where that spirit resided. Joan of Arc was one of those bodies.

So sorry, Dan O, much that I like to be the medium, I cannot because I am not designated. That is not my role.


Look, mate, seek some professional help, before it really is too late. You appear in dire need of it.


M.
 
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