Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal
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Chaos
Penultimate Amazing
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Cleopatra said:
Cleopatra,
I think you are wasting your time. Instead of trying to convince ZN and his ilk, you could just as well talk to a brick wall with exactly the same effect.
They don´t see that sometimes it is better to make a compromise, not to go for getting everything they want come hell or high water, to achieve something.
And, what is more important, THEY are not the ones whose friends and relatives are blown up by a suicide bomber, or killed by a helicopter rocket. They can just follow their own agenda and act according to their twisted ideology with no regard whatsoever to the people who actually suffer the consequences.
These guys (they are not the ordinary Americans, but, sadly, they are the ones who run the show right now) don´t give a damn about anything but themselves. Their will be done. They know they are right, and f*** anybody who disagrees - they´re just bedwetting liberal terrorist-huggers anyway. And if anybody suffer because of their actions, well then it was their own fault and they deserve it for just existing in spite of Good Patriotic (tm) ideology.
Oh well, another rant of mine. This is turning into a habit. Hope I don´t get so eaten up by hatred as some other posters here...
I agree 100%.Cleopatra said:
Obscured by events in Iraq, and by 9/11 commission, this is also a huge step in the wrong direction in the supposed war on terrorism. (Yet one more example to the Arab/Islamic world of unbalanced US policy.)
I get your point but I am proverbial in wasting time in trying to persuade opinionated people and on this issue as well!!Chaos said:
I really wonder what z-n and the average American has to win from this situation and I wonder if it is so difficult to see that this attitude causes double the problems it supposes to solve.
I wish I could make them play nice together.
my feeling is both sides are up to their knees in blood. I don't care who started it someone has to have the courage to stop it.
Jew or Arab, they must all play nice together or they will keep killing each until the second comming (and we know how long that will be).
I think the wall is dumb but might be needed for the next 20 years or so.
Virgil
my feeling is both sides are up to their knees in blood. I don't care who started it someone has to have the courage to stop it.
Jew or Arab, they must all play nice together or they will keep killing each until the second comming (and we know how long that will be).
I think the wall is dumb but might be needed for the next 20 years or so.
Virgil
zenith-nadir
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Well I've had a good laugh reading this thread. "Zenith Nadir and his ilk", "I really wonder what z-n and the average American has to win from this situation ...classic, 
I have nothing to win, I don't want to win. I want Arafat and the Palestinian Authority replaced, gone, removed. For the sake of the 4 million palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza I want them to have a leader who can bring them hope and prosperity instead of war, corruption, fanaticism and child bombers.
See I ain't dumb or naïve and I do not believe the world started in 2000 when Sharon was elected, I don't believe the world started in 2002 when Israel began demolishing suicide bomber homes, I don't believe the world started in 2003 when Israel began constructing the wall. It is like you folks forget who Arafat is and who the PLO was. Before Bin Laden and Al Queda there was Arafat and the PLO. No ifs ands or buts. In the 20th century there was no Bin Laden and Al Queda there was Arafat and the PLO!
Then in a bizzare piece of hypocrisy after 30+ years of terrorism and two civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon Arafat and the PLO became the Palestinian Authority. YEAH! Happy days.... Now Arafat and the PLO had Gaza and the West Bank to launch their attacks from.
First came the Camp David Accords in 1978, then Israel-PLO Recognition in 1993, then Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles in 1993, then the Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area in 1994, Then the Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities in 1994, Then the Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians in 1995, then the Wye River Plantation Agreement in 1998, Then the Sharm el Sheikh Agreement in 1999, Then the Trilateral Statement on the Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David in 2000, Then the Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) in 2001, then the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution in 2002.
Under the OBLIGATIONS of all these treaties Arafat and the PLO signed there still has been no Palestinian elections, no drafting of a palestinian constitution, no end of the terror bombings, no end of incitement against jews in palestinian media, no end of Palestinian Authority corruption. So now, all of you blow a gasket because Sharon and Bush ignore the Palestinian Authority and Arafat? Holy shiite on a Ritz what a laugh!
Arafat and the poor old downtrodden Palestinian Authority get to pass go and collect $200.00 while Bush and Sharon are the anti-christ for finally ignoring him ... how can anyone debate with that kind of bizzare JREF logic....
I have nothing to win, I don't want to win. I want Arafat and the Palestinian Authority replaced, gone, removed. For the sake of the 4 million palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza I want them to have a leader who can bring them hope and prosperity instead of war, corruption, fanaticism and child bombers.
See I ain't dumb or naïve and I do not believe the world started in 2000 when Sharon was elected, I don't believe the world started in 2002 when Israel began demolishing suicide bomber homes, I don't believe the world started in 2003 when Israel began constructing the wall. It is like you folks forget who Arafat is and who the PLO was. Before Bin Laden and Al Queda there was Arafat and the PLO. No ifs ands or buts. In the 20th century there was no Bin Laden and Al Queda there was Arafat and the PLO!
Then in a bizzare piece of hypocrisy after 30+ years of terrorism and two civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon Arafat and the PLO became the Palestinian Authority. YEAH! Happy days.... Now Arafat and the PLO had Gaza and the West Bank to launch their attacks from.
First came the Camp David Accords in 1978, then Israel-PLO Recognition in 1993, then Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles in 1993, then the Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area in 1994, Then the Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities in 1994, Then the Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians in 1995, then the Wye River Plantation Agreement in 1998, Then the Sharm el Sheikh Agreement in 1999, Then the Trilateral Statement on the Middle East Peace Summit at Camp David in 2000, Then the Palestinian-Israeli Security Implementation Work Plan (Tenet Plan) in 2001, then the Performance-Based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution in 2002.
Under the OBLIGATIONS of all these treaties Arafat and the PLO signed there still has been no Palestinian elections, no drafting of a palestinian constitution, no end of the terror bombings, no end of incitement against jews in palestinian media, no end of Palestinian Authority corruption. So now, all of you blow a gasket because Sharon and Bush ignore the Palestinian Authority and Arafat? Holy shiite on a Ritz what a laugh!
Arafat and the poor old downtrodden Palestinian Authority get to pass go and collect $200.00 while Bush and Sharon are the anti-christ for finally ignoring him ... how can anyone debate with that kind of bizzare JREF logic....
zenith-nadir
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Gaza belonged to Egypt, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan in 1949 and re-named the West Bank. Prior to 1949, for 3000 years, it was called Judea and Samaria.celter said:
ZN:
"Gaza belonged to Egypt, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan in 1949 and re-named the West Bank. Prior to 1949, for 3000 years, it was called Judea and Samaria."
Ah just in time, I just made my hot chocolate and am all settled...can we have the story of David and Goliath tonight? Promise I won`t interrupt...even at the scary parts!
"Gaza belonged to Egypt, the West Bank was annexed by Jordan in 1949 and re-named the West Bank. Prior to 1949, for 3000 years, it was called Judea and Samaria."
Ah just in time, I just made my hot chocolate and am all settled...can we have the story of David and Goliath tonight? Promise I won`t interrupt...even at the scary parts!
zenith-nadir
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Gaza:
West Bank:
Stand by and watch Demon and the fool try to say Wikipedia and Encarta are "lying"
West Bank:
Stand by and watch Demon and the fool try to say Wikipedia and Encarta are "lying"
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
The Fool said:
Not quite. The lord giveth, and the lord taketh away. In the case of Israel, it didn't take long at all.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
zenith-nadir said:Gaza:
West Bank:
Stand by and watch Demon and the fool try to say Wikipedia and Encarta are "lying"
I don't get your point. The land has changed hands many times over thousands of years, the Jews cannot claim to have had any exclusive ownership of it. The people who happened to be living in it at the time modern Israel was created got the arse because the Western world felt guilty at it's responsibility for the Holocaust, and ignored the fact that Palestinians had nothing to do with it but had to pay the price for that guilt.
The people who happened to be living in it at the time modern Israel was created got the arse because the Western world felt guilty at it's responsibility for the Holocaust, and ignored the fact that Palestinians had nothing to do with it but had to pay the price for that guilt.
Except for the fact that:
1). The Palestinians HAD quite a bit to do with the holocaust. Their supreme (and first) leader--Haj Al-Amin Al-Husseini--met with Hitler, and raised Muslim divisions (including Palestinian volunteers) for the Waffen-SS.
Simply put, the founder of Palestinian nationality was a war criminal and a friend of Hitler.
What a surprise.
2). Incidentally, these divisions (the "Hanjar" divisions, as they were called) proved worthless at the front, but distinguished themselves, even among the SS, as especially cruel in their butchery of defenseless slavs and jews in rear areas.
Sounds familiar?
3). Finally, the Palestinians didn't "get the arse" for "western guilt", but for rejecting the very idea of a jewish state ANYWHERE and trying to genocide the jewish state, which accepted the partition plan, the day it was declared.
Except for the fact that:
1). The Palestinians HAD quite a bit to do with the holocaust. Their supreme (and first) leader--Haj Al-Amin Al-Husseini--met with Hitler, and raised Muslim divisions (including Palestinian volunteers) for the Waffen-SS.
Simply put, the founder of Palestinian nationality was a war criminal and a friend of Hitler.
What a surprise.
2). Incidentally, these divisions (the "Hanjar" divisions, as they were called) proved worthless at the front, but distinguished themselves, even among the SS, as especially cruel in their butchery of defenseless slavs and jews in rear areas.
Sounds familiar?
3). Finally, the Palestinians didn't "get the arse" for "western guilt", but for rejecting the very idea of a jewish state ANYWHERE and trying to genocide the jewish state, which accepted the partition plan, the day it was declared.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Skeptic said:
Jesus Christ Skeptic, there were neo-Nazis everywhere, including the US and Great Britain. The actual number of members of those divisions was very small in relation to the actual number of the population of those areas. If you want to have them tried for war crimes, feel free, if there are any of them still alive.
If you say it, it must be true. The Nazis found that many of their 'allied' divisions were worthless, as you put it. The members just weren't that interested in the Nazi dream, eg, the Italians. You can have tyrant send you to fight, that doesn't mean the members want to fight.
Anywhere they happened to live, I believe. The plan to create Israel was stalled, because it became apparent it wasn't going to work. As I have stated before, I would like to see, for example, the Finnish decided to set up a country in California. No Americans welcome.
Jesus Christ Skeptic, there were neo-Nazis everywhere, including the US and Great Britain.
Yes, but the pro-fascist Mosely didn't run the UK government and the pro-nazi father Coulghlan (sp?) didn't run the US government, while the pro-nazi Haj Amin Al- Husseini DID run the Palestinian national movement, with the enthusiastic support of his people.
A bit of a difference, don't you think?
The actual number of members of those divisions was very small in relation to the actual number of the population of those areas.
Well, that might have had something to do with the fact that the SS didn't agree to take them until 1942, since from its racial point of view the Arabs were dubious allies. But Husseini finally convinced Hitler that he hates the jews ever bit as much as Hitler himself did (there is a famous photo of him meeting with Hitler in the Berghof) that non-Aryan Muslims were allowed to join the exalted ranks of the SS.
If you say it, it must be true.
My source here is "SS: Hitler's Black Guard at War", a very interesting and exhaustive book. Incidentally, it has a large bibliography, if you wish to check further. Of course, you're the guy who thinks David Irving is an "historian" and Israel Shahak a "scholar"... people in glass houses, and all that.
The Nazis found that many of their 'allied' divisions were worthless, as you put it. The members just weren't that interested in the Nazi dream, eg, the Italians. You can have tyrant send you to fight, that doesn't mean the members want to fight.
...except for the fact that, like all Auslander SS (foreign SS) divisions, the Hanjar divisions Freiwilligen (volunteer) divisions. Nice try. At any rate, as for "not wanting to fight", you're quite correct: the Hanjar divisions generally preferred to kill the defensless in the rear, where they quickly acquired a reputation for cruelty and bloodthirstiness. And if you become notorious as a bloodthirsty SS division, that's saying something.
As usual, you are ignorant of the basic facts (in this case, that all foreign SS divisions were volunteers), but that doesn't stop you from pulling one excuse after another out of thin air to "explain" why the fact that the Muslims enthusiastically joined mass-murdering SS division somehow doesn't "really" prove anything. I keep forgetting that for you, it is a dogma that whenever Palestinians (or Muslims) do anything horrendous, whether blowing up babies or joining the SS, it is always somebody else's fault (usually their victim's), and they were forced into it all, the poor souls.
In any case, here's some more information about this wonderful elder statesman of the just palestinian cause, Haj Amin Al-Husseini:
http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti4.htm
Note in particular the final paragraph:
"Kill the jews wherever you find them. This pleases God." Sounds familiar? Why, yes; as shown to you a few months ago, these are the exact words oft-repeated in Palestinian Mosques by PA-controlled Imams today.
Some things never change. But hey, it's all "the occupation"'s fault, right?
Yes, but the pro-fascist Mosely didn't run the UK government and the pro-nazi father Coulghlan (sp?) didn't run the US government, while the pro-nazi Haj Amin Al- Husseini DID run the Palestinian national movement, with the enthusiastic support of his people.
A bit of a difference, don't you think?
The actual number of members of those divisions was very small in relation to the actual number of the population of those areas.
Well, that might have had something to do with the fact that the SS didn't agree to take them until 1942, since from its racial point of view the Arabs were dubious allies. But Husseini finally convinced Hitler that he hates the jews ever bit as much as Hitler himself did (there is a famous photo of him meeting with Hitler in the Berghof) that non-Aryan Muslims were allowed to join the exalted ranks of the SS.
If you say it, it must be true.
My source here is "SS: Hitler's Black Guard at War", a very interesting and exhaustive book. Incidentally, it has a large bibliography, if you wish to check further. Of course, you're the guy who thinks David Irving is an "historian" and Israel Shahak a "scholar"... people in glass houses, and all that.
The Nazis found that many of their 'allied' divisions were worthless, as you put it. The members just weren't that interested in the Nazi dream, eg, the Italians. You can have tyrant send you to fight, that doesn't mean the members want to fight.
...except for the fact that, like all Auslander SS (foreign SS) divisions, the Hanjar divisions Freiwilligen (volunteer) divisions. Nice try. At any rate, as for "not wanting to fight", you're quite correct: the Hanjar divisions generally preferred to kill the defensless in the rear, where they quickly acquired a reputation for cruelty and bloodthirstiness. And if you become notorious as a bloodthirsty SS division, that's saying something.
As usual, you are ignorant of the basic facts (in this case, that all foreign SS divisions were volunteers), but that doesn't stop you from pulling one excuse after another out of thin air to "explain" why the fact that the Muslims enthusiastically joined mass-murdering SS division somehow doesn't "really" prove anything. I keep forgetting that for you, it is a dogma that whenever Palestinians (or Muslims) do anything horrendous, whether blowing up babies or joining the SS, it is always somebody else's fault (usually their victim's), and they were forced into it all, the poor souls.
In any case, here's some more information about this wonderful elder statesman of the just palestinian cause, Haj Amin Al-Husseini:
http://notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/mufti4.htm
Note in particular the final paragraph:
"Kill the jews wherever you find them. This pleases God." Sounds familiar? Why, yes; as shown to you a few months ago, these are the exact words oft-repeated in Palestinian Mosques by PA-controlled Imams today.
Some things never change. But hey, it's all "the occupation"'s fault, right?
zenith-nadir
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And in your Shangri-La world Cleo how many free passes does Arafat and the Palestinian Authority get? how many decades get to go by while no palestinian elections ever take place, how many decades get to go by while no palestinian constitution is drafted, how many decades get to go by while the Palestinian Authority lets terror groups roam wild and free? how many different American presidents get to be burnt by Arafat? how many mideast envoys must go visit Arafat's Mukata compound in futility? how many buses and restaurants in Israel need to be blown up by Hamas and Al Aksa? how many decades get to go by Cleo before Arafat and the Palestinian Authority become responsible for their failures or become irrelevant?Cleopatra said:
Well that would be a fair question except before Sharon there was Barak, before Barak was Netantahu, before Netantahu was Peres, before Peres was Shamir, before Shamir, was Begin....there has only ever been one Arafat. So what do you Cleopatra have to profit from completely ignoring Arafat's ten-year destructive policy?Cleopatra said: