Bush backs Sharon Peace Proposal

He's throwing a bone to his supporters (religious right in favor of Israel doing anything it wants) regardless of the consequences. And he can spin it to give the illusion he is doing something to bring peace there. In reality it is more like his record for running businesses, not a single one he didn't royally screw up.
 
Okay, here's the thing:

I host a liberal talk radio show, which is not on the air today. My wife has made me promise not to listen to the conservative talk radio shows today because it's my birthday and she doesn't want me blowing a gasket.

Could someone do me a favour and post or PM me the spin Rush, Glenn Beck and Hannity have on this issue? I'm DYING to hear them come up with a legitimate reason why this is a "good" thing.
 
Here's a question. Who is the USA and Israel suppose to negotiate with? Arafat? there have been several Israeli prime ministers and four diferent American presidents during Yasser Arafat's 30-year-term as the "leader of the Palestinians", none of them have been able to make peace with Arafat. There has also been ten different peace treaties Arafat , none of them have stopped the suicide bombers.

Yet here we are today, everyone blaming Sharon and Bush for finally accepting that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are incapable to negotiate in good faith. So lets spin it into 'vote getting' by Bush and Israel's 'expansionism'. Laughable hypocrisy by the board.

Where were you folks when 400,000+ palestinians were forcibly expelled from Kuwait because Arafat backed Saddam in the Kuwait invasion ?!?!?!, ( Angry welcome for Palestinian in Kuwait ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?


Half a million palestinians cannot own land or become Lebanese citizens, even after living there for three generations, ( Palestinians struggle for land rights in Lebanon ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?

People's "outrage" is only reserved for Israel, even when Lebanon opresses palestinians and Kuwait ethnically cleanses 400,000 palestinians after Desert Storm.

Please continue with your crocodile tears everyone... ;)
 
zenith-nadir said:
Here's a question. Who is the USA and Israel suppose to negotiate with? Arafat? there have been several Israeli prime ministers and four diferent American presidents during Yasser Arafat's 30-year-term as the "leader of the Palestinians", none of them have been able to make peace with Arafat. There has also been ten different peace treaties Arafat , none of them have stopped the suicide bombers.

Yet here we are today, everyone blaming Sharon and Bush for finally accepting that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are incapable to negotiate in good faith. So lets spin it into 'vote getting' by Bush and Israel's 'expansionism'. Laughable hypocrisy by the board.

Where were you folks when 400,000+ palestinians were forcibly expelled from Kuwait because Arafat backed Saddam in the Kuwait invasion ?!?!?!, ( Angry welcome for Palestinian in Kuwait ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?


Half a million palestinians cannot own land or become Lebanese citizens, even after living there for three generations, ( Palestinians struggle for land rights in Lebanon ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?

People's "outrage" is only reserved for Israel, even when Lebanon opresses palestinians and Kuwait ethnically cleanses 400,000 palestinians after Desert Storm.

Please continue with your crocodile tears everyone... ;)
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To deal with your points, let me say the following:

As previously stated, I don't feel the leadership of either group is without blame.

I am not as schooled in the politics of this conflict as I should be, I just know a little of the history. When I deal with things on air (or on the board, for that matter) I usually deal with things which normally directly effect (or affect. I'm tired and can't remember which I'm supposed to use in this case) the American people. I will learn more about the issue, though.

As for Lebanon, I was unaware of it.

As for the first Gulf war and the expulsion of the Palestinians, I was in high school and more concerned with getting a date than with what was going on half a world away.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Where were you folks when 400,000+ palestinians were forcibly expelled from Kuwait because Arafat backed Saddam in the Kuwait invasion ?!?!?!, ( Angry welcome for Palestinian in Kuwait ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?


Half a million palestinians cannot own land or become Lebanese citizens, even after living there for three generations, ( Palestinians struggle for land rights in Lebanon ), where's the outrage of a_u_p? Demon? Cleopatra? the fool?

People's "outrage" is only reserved for Israel, even when Lebanon opresses palestinians and Kuwait ethnically cleanses 400,000 palestinians after Desert Storm.
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Perhaps this is because Lebanon and Kuwait arent Palestine?
 
a_unique_person said:
They have just as much obligation to take refugees as any other country in the world.
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Not in this case. These are no ordinary "refugees". If they take these refugees on a permanent basis, it legitamises what has happened in Israel. By refusing to permanently accept these refugees, it continues to provide the environment where Israel is not allowed to profit from its crimes.

Why doesn't the US just take them all?
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Why doesn't the US just take all the Israelis. That would solve the problem.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Here's a question. Who is the USA and Israel suppose to negotiate with? Arafat? there have been several Israeli prime ministers and four diferent American presidents during Yasser Arafat's 30-year-term as the "leader of the Palestinians",
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Can someone tell me exactly what Arafat has accomplished in 30 years for the Palestinian people? Tell me about infra-structure, hospitals, schools, universities, advances in fields other than destruction (granted that wireing kids to explosives might be viewed as an advance by some). And what is this deal with refugee camps? After a couple of generations one would think that they would move on a bit.
 
Ed said:


Can someone tell me exactly what Arafat has accomplished in 30 years for the Palestinian people? Tell me about infra-structure, hospitals, schools, universities, advances in fields other than destruction (granted that wireing kids to explosives might be viewed as an advance by some). And what is this deal with refugee camps? After a couple of generations one would think that they would move on a bit.
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Palestine has, of course, hospitals, universities and schools. You might find that often Universities and schools are randomly closed and the students and patients are subject to ad hoc curfews.

Arafat has no idea of how to build a modern state, AFAIK, but I can't see the sense of blaming all Palestinians for his incompetence. The collapse of the Palestinian economy would owe as much to Israeli impostiontions as Arafats incompetence.
 
Ed said:
Can someone tell me exactly what Arafat has accomplished in 30 years for the Palestinian people? Tell me about infra-structure, hospitals, schools, universities, advances in fields other than destruction (granted that wireing kids to explosives might be viewed as an advance by some). And what is this deal with refugee camps? After a couple of generations one would think that they would move on a bit.
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Nothing but he never presented himself as a responsible authority who is interested in democracy and peace the way the President of USA presents himself. I cannot compare Arafat to any of the American Presidents, his responsibility towards the International Community is not the same.
 
Okey dokey. So basically they have accomplished nothing.

Tell me now, amidst all of the Palestinian rhetoric, are there any negotiating points that address economic/infrastructure development? I mean something beyond "give us money". Do they have a grand design? Where is it on the net? Is there anything that would lead one to suspect that there is anything remotely responsible about the people or their leadership?

I mean to say, suppose all the Jews are gone. Now what? What are their dreams and how have these been identified? Is it more than "we'll root in the sand and worship Allah?"
 
Ed said:
Okey dokey. So basically they have accomplished nothing.

Tell me now, amidst all of the Palestinian rhetoric, are there any negotiating points that address economic/infrastructure development? I mean something beyond "give us money". Do they have a grand design? Where is it on the net? Is there anything that would lead one to suspect that there is anything remotely responsible about the people or their leadership?

I mean to say, suppose all the Jews are gone. Now what? What are their dreams and how have these been identified? Is it more than "we'll root in the sand and worship Allah?"
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So if you don't like someones economic and infrastructure policies, you can seize their land and expel them from it? :confused:
 
Jaggy Bunnet said:


So if you don't like someones economic and infrastructure policies, you can seize their land and expel them from it? :confused:
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My, we are being defensive, aren't we. Did I say anything about seizing land or some such? And it is not a question of "liking". There has to be something there in the first place before we can get to "like" or "dislike".
 
Ed said:
Okey dokey. So basically they have accomplished nothing.

Tell me now, amidst all of the Palestinian rhetoric, are there any negotiating points that address economic/infrastructure development? I mean something beyond "give us money". Do they have a grand design? Where is it on the net? Is there anything that would lead one to suspect that there is anything remotely responsible about the people or their leadership?

I mean to say, suppose all the Jews are gone. Now what? What are their dreams and how have these been identified? Is it more than "we'll root in the sand and worship Allah?"
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Argument from Ignorance. There are people, of course, in the Palestinian areas who want university education, a good life and peace. There is also a pretty apparent realisation, as I have stated before, that the economies of Israel and Palestine are going to be pretty closely intertwined if peace is ever achieved. This was already happening after Oslo.

What, however, is the grand design of the US? I thought that one of the things it eschewed was the 'planned economy'.
 
Ed said:


My, we are being defensive, aren't we. Did I say anything about seizing land or some such? And it is not a question of "liking". There has to be something there in the first place before we can get to "like" or "dislike".
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Not defensive at all. I just don't understand how someone's economic policy, or lack of, is remotely relevant to the situation and the Bush/Sharon plan.
 
a_unique_person said:
Argument from Ignorance. There are people, of course, in the Palestinian areas who want university education, a good life and peace. There is also a pretty apparent realisation, as I have stated before, that the economies of Israel and Palestine are going to be pretty closely intertwined if peace is ever achieved. This was already happening after Oslo.

Misdirection. I asked a question. No argument.

What, however, is the grand design of the US? I thought that one of the things it eschewed was the 'planned economy'.

The Federal Budget is public record, as are State and Local budgets.
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When a democratically elected leader can make a decision like this, ostensibly to secure support for his re-election, it's a bad day for democracy (okay, it's an even worse day for democracy than usual).

Looking forward to the spin Blair puts on this one, considering his supposed commitment to a permanent settlement of the Palestinian/Israeli problem.
 
BillyTK said:
Looking forward to the spin Blair puts on this one, considering his supposed commitment to a permanent settlement of the Palestinian/Israeli problem. [/B]
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Looking forward to Blairs spin on the whole d**ned caboodle, quite frankly. His position has been so severely undermined that he is currently levitating.
 
zenith-nadir said:
Here's a question. Who is the USA and Israel suppose to negotiate with? Arafat?
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Yes.

In my opinion it's their obligation towards the Jewish History and the Jewish people to negotiate even with the devil if it's necessary.

We set up a state ,a Jewish state, to protect ourselves, live in the jewish way and prosper. Many people might wonder what consists a jewish way of living. My grandparents said that once you are a Jew you are obliged to be kind and fair towards the people, "Jews are kind people because they don't kill others" my grandma used to say and this is what she believed until 1967.

We set up a state. We brought there poor people from Russia, Africa, even Central America and we are responsible for their security. We went to Israel to live in Peace and not to live like animals in a zoo behind walls.

Sharon and Bush and the western leaders are obliged to negotiate with the Palestinians. They have no right to ignore those people and they have no right to show this kind of contempt towards them. If their leaders are uncapable to protect them then it's USA's obligation to do so they way they did in Iraq.

George W Bush wants to be re-elected. I wonder. What you Zenith-nadir and the average citizen of USA has to profit from supporting Ariel Sharon's destructive policy.

What do you have to win? How your everyday life will be affected if Israel is not allowed to annex the West Bank. Why you support such an injustice.?
 
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