Bullycide

[MarkCorrigan]

Well obviously my plan is not going to address every single aspect of bullying. None of the solutions on here have addressed every single aspect of bullying. Each situation is highly unsual. A skinny geek getting picked on by the football team experiences something very different than the homosexual in a bible thumper town. Etc.

As I noted earlier there would be different sorts of approaches mentioned.

I do agree with your point though that people who are at risk for suicide would probably not respond well to this type of approach because they are already suffering from psychological issues. In that case I would suggest you go back to the parents. Massive intervention is needed at this point. In addition the schools should be on high alert for this student and any bullying. One way we could perhaps deal with that is have a student petition for emotional distress.

A parent, friend or the student themselves could document three cases of bullying, and submit this to the school board. If the school doesn't immediatley shut down the bullying, the school can be held liable for any consequences that arise because of it. Example, counseling and liability lawsuits if the student is physically assaulted again. Money tends to be a fire under their butt type of issue.

Now THAT is how you make a reasonable reply. I don't agree that all of it will work but I respect it as an answer and am impressed that it was a flat answer with no inclination.


I'm going to be mean again, if you will indulge me, because there's something that I think you really need to grasp, and until you do, it's going to be really hard to get any kind of continuing communication going. Some people in this thread, myself included, do indeed get emotional about this issue, and while that isn't the best way to deal with things, it isn't exactly something we choose to do.

While you may believe yourself to be advocating a logical and well reasoned argument, others are disagreeing with you because your communication was not clear enough and led us to believe a few things you apparently weren't saying. This led to us getting emotional and brought on the insults.

Now, while this is both your fault for communicating badly and ours for being impolite, what has always followed next is purely you. You insult us.
You may not think you do, but trust me, you've insulted pretty much everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread. You may not mean to talk down to us, but rebuking us for being emotional while commenting on how logical you are being is nothing but an obvious implied insult. All it says to us is that we aren't as good sceptics or as clever as you because we fall back on emotions whereas you and your wonderful idea are logical and not emotional at all.

Do you see why this is a problem? While some of us here could do with reining in our barbs and insults, you need to recognise that the way you communicate is leading to misunderstandings and a sense of absolute smugness from you. That you ten further compound this by declaring that we're not understanding you BECAUSE we're getting emotional is REALLY insulting and I hope I don't have to explain why.

So, will you look at your own posts and try to see it from our point of view?

 

[truethat]

Now THAT is how you make a reasonable reply. I don't agree that all of it will work but I respect it as an answer and am impressed that it was a flat answer with no inclination.


I'm going to be mean again, if you will indulge me, because there's something that I think you really need to grasp, and until you do, it's going to be really hard to get any kind of continuing communication going. Some people in this thread, myself included, do indeed get emotional about this issue, and while that isn't the best way to deal with things, it isn't exactly something we choose to do.

While you may believe yourself to be advocating a logical and well reasoned argument, others are disagreeing with you because your communication was not clear enough and led us to believe a few things you apparently weren't saying. This led to us getting emotional and brought on the insults.

Now, while this is both your fault for communicating badly and ours for being impolite, what has always followed next is purely you. You insult us.
You may not think you do, but trust me, you've insulted pretty much everyone who has disagreed with you in this thread. You may not mean to talk down to us, but rebuking us for being emotional while commenting on how logical you are being is nothing but an obvious implied insult. All it says to us is that we aren't as good sceptics or as clever as you because we fall back on emotions whereas you and your wonderful idea are logical and not emotional at all.

Do you see why this is a problem? While some of us here could do with reining in our barbs and insults, you need to recognise that the way you communicate is leading to misunderstandings and a sense of absolute smugness from you. That you ten further compound this by declaring that we're not understanding you BECAUSE we're getting emotional is REALLY insulting and I hope I don't have to explain why.

So, will you look at your own posts and try to see it from our point of view?

I have already stated this several times in the thread itself. You wrote to me in a rational way and I responded in kind. If you compare the comments in that section you will notice that I didn't have to change the way I've spoken to you as you did to me. I didn't have to do that because I've always spoken to you the same way.

Your perceived attack is common. I understand that I am the minority here. However I've been saying this from the get go. Suggesting that I am more logical and you are more emotional is not saying that it better to be logical, rather that in a discussion it makes sense to not internalize these sorts of things.

I will not take responsibility for your attacks or abusive behavior. You did it, you bullied me as have others on this thread. I didn't "deserve it" because it came across as something else to you.

I will agree that self examination is helpful. And I've stated elsewhere on this site that I am trying to be more aware how my positing style comes across.

However, I'm not upset by your bullying or others because I have experienced the same response many times. Also I do not wish to blame you or attack you for being mean because again, obviously if I am experiencing things on a regular basis there must be some truth the accusation. So basically you are telling me something I already know, which I have expressed myself on this very thread.

Again, this is the second time someone has turned from ranting at me, to suddenly realizing "oh wait she IS being rational and fair and kind.....I took it wrong." That's ok. But I'm curious why people are so quick to jump to the negative?

I'm also curious why people don't believe what a person says? If I say that I am not trying to be patronizing or blame the victim, why still go on and on with a huge rant insisting that I am? Also why would I put myself UP for being logical? Is that BETTER? It's not better to be logical? Curious you would suggest that? I have also stated on here I have difficulty with relationships because people think I'm too logical and not emotional. I also struggle with understand the HOLD that these emotions have on others. These statements do not sound like Bragging rights to me?

Very strange to me. Seriously. Like I said I have a mild form of Aspergers. What you are advocating is what I suggested to you and it's helpful. I should look at my own behavior and try to understand why it's coming across in such an upsetting manner. I do this allllll the time.

 

[Sabrina]

truethat, if I may, I believe a majority of the reason people view you as patronizing or blaming the victim is because perception is different from person to person. You can claim you are not being patronizing or blaming the victim until you're blue in the face, but so long as the person reading your words PERCEIVES that you are, that is what they will believe, because that is how they are interpreting your words. I have not thus far responded to any of your posts, but even I thought that they came across as very condescending and as though you felt the victims of bullying should be able to "suck it up" in a manner of speaking (that's not exactly what you said; merely my interpretation of it, incidentally). That may not be what you intended, but it is what others here have seen in your posts.

If I may offer a suggestion, qualifying phrases such as "it appears to me", "in my opinion", and "I feel that" go a long way toward getting people to understand that this is merely YOUR way of interpreting the situation and not that you are speaking as though your thoughts on the matter are the only ones that matter. Approaching the situation from a logical standpoint is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is, most people are emotional first and logical second; it's why so many people end up blurting out things that mess things up, because they don't act like Vulcans. So when you provide your logical standpoint, to many people it comes across as though you believe your thoughts are superior to all others and they should just fall in line with them, which rubs many the wrong way and causes the emotional reactions you have seen. Like it or not, this is an emotional subject for many, LibraryLady included if I'm not mistaken, given that she's spoken about the subject emotionally in the past, so logic, while it will play a part, is not going to be the primary response for most.

I'm not sure if you read my initial post in this thread at all, but if you did, you may have noticed that while I offered some critical, reasonably well-thought out suggestions for dealing with the situation, I also indicated that it's a subject that reminds me of old wounds and issues I dealt with while being subjected to bullying myself as well as indicating my outright irritation with my perception of most teenagers in this day and age. So logic played a part in my response, but so did emotion. I don't have children as of yet, but it is my fondest wish that, should I have any, I will raise them to understand that bullying is never to be tolerated in them and they should not encourage it in others either, or allow it to happen if there is any way they can prevent it without physical or emotional harm to themselves or others. My reasons for that are both emotional AND logical. That is the way most people are when it comes to situations like this.

Please understand, I am not saying you are wrong in your posting style; merely trying to help you understand why I think it is that Mark and others responded so emotionally to it. You indicated you wanted to know, so I thought you wouldn't mind it if I offered my own perspective as someone who has not thus far argued with you in this thread. I apologize if I overstepped any boundaries.

 

[truethat]

Hmm that's interesting. I think I do that, but I guess I need to do it more. I suppose I just assumed that everyone is just offering their own perspective. It just seems really obvious to me that people are talking about their own opinions. Why the need to qualify it so much? But I'll try harder. Thanks for the feedback.

The reason I'm pushing for "logical thinking and reality" in particularly this case is that most of the emotional hurt that comes from being a victim of bullying comes from feeling afraid and confused about what's going on. (hmm I see what you mean, I should say here IN MY OPINION and btw I've put IMHO on a few of the posts which means "In My Humble Opinion" )

I've worked with people who are in a situation of stress many times. The thing that has seemed to help them is to examine if they are reacting to a reality or a fear. One of the things I focus on in my job is dealing with Test Anxiety. Many of my students will come to me with a list of fears and disasters. When I sit with them and point out that these things are in the potential future and not reality at the moment it goes a long way towards diminishing the anxiety.

Ex.

If I don't pass this test I'm going to lose my job and I'll be broke.

True, False or don't know? Well yes that could happen but right now it isn't happening. What is happening now is that you are taking the test. And even if you don't pass the test are you going to walk into work the day after and get fired? No. What happens in life is that we deal with the situation as it comes along. And that's what you will do.

It seems to help a lot.

In the case of bullying a person to the degree that they would consider suicide there seems to me to be two (or more) sets of trauma. One is just that the student can't take it any more and wants to escape the situation. This is to be solved (in my opinion) with aggressive liability campaigns against the schools that permit it to continue. If a student is being "picked on" and badgered, insulted and mocked on a daily basis, the student should report it and the offending parties told to completely avoid the student with risk of suspension.

However there seems to me to be another type of trauma here which creates a sense of emotional damage to the person who feels unworthy or that "this is all life is." In these cases I wonder if it is possible to avoid these feelings by showing the victim that bullying is very common, that there are patterns of this happening throughout history and it isn't a statement about that person being worthless.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

However there seems to me to be another type of trauma here which creates a sense of emotional damage to the person who feels unworthy or that "this is all life is." In these cases I wonder if it is possible to avoid these feelings by showing the victim that bullying is very common, that there are patterns of this happening throughout history and it isn't a statement about that person being worthless.

I can help you there. No, it isn't always possible.

I knew that bullying was and is common, that people pick on others for a multitude of reasons and that it was entirely possible that my abusers were themselves victims of abuse, or were acting on peer pressure, or were otherwise attacking me because they themselves felt inadequate.

Some people can't be reached with those kinds of platitudes. It doesn't work because bullying is, to most people, an emotional experience and not an intellectual problem.

 

[Flo]

In the case of bullying a person to the degree that they would consider suicide there seems to me to be two (or more) sets of trauma. One is just that the student can't take it any more and wants to escape the situation. This is to be solved (in my opinion) with aggressive liability campaigns against the schools that permit it to continue. If a student is being "picked on" and badgered, insulted and mocked on a daily basis, the student should report it and the offending parties told to completely avoid the student with risk of suspension.

Not only that, but aggressive information campains about how victims will be actively encouraged to report abuses, protected from retaliation, and the bullies and their parents will be held liable for the abuses.

However there seems to me to be another type of trauma here which creates a sense of emotional damage to the person who feels unworthy or that "this is all life is." In these cases I wonder if it is possible to avoid these feelings by showing the victim that bullying is very common, that there are patterns of this happening throughout history and it isn't a statement about that person being worthless.

No. Just telling victims "it's always been happening and will happen again, don't take it too bad, it's not about you" will solve nothing. What's needed is telling them "you've been a victim of abuse, we'll protect you from now on, we'll punish your abuser and prevent him/her to hurt you again", or in other words "we adults are going to behave as adults and make sure that kind of behavior becomes a thing of the past as much as we can".

 

[sgtbaker]

No, but looking back the clues were all there. I got married when I was 20. He wasn't a very violent person but his personality was high strung and he was a control freak. I remember for example him buying me clothes and me not wanting to wear them and he freaked out. I didn't catch it.

Do you think an assembly in kindergarten would have changed your possible future? Probably not. I highly doubt the first time you heard the term 'spousal abuse' was when you were being abused. The reason why is people do not self identify.
You didn't see it coming and off the top of my head, there are two possible reason which can be interchangable. For one, in the beginning of every relationship, you tend to not see or excuse potential red flags because you enjoy the high you get in a new relationship. It's not uncommon for people to lose themselves in trying to be overly agreeable. The second reason is it comes on slowly. Only in rare circumstances does the change take place, overnight. It takes an event or a moment of, "Oh my goodness, I am that person!" You don't necessarily see the resemblance of your situation to stories you've heard in the past until that awakening. So the programs you watched or the workshops in which you participated, are talking about someone else because that is, "just not me."

Because I am not throwing my anecdote at you to berate you for not agreeing with me as you did with your comment.

I am sorry if you feel attacked but you threw out your anecdote first, as support for your case and I responded with one, simply to express that yours is not the only possible situation. It is just not that black and white. Again, if you do not like anecdotal evidence, don't use it. I do apologize for the sarcasm at the end, though. That's a bad habit of mine.

Yes it is a question. Your post again is higly emotional and angry and there's a perceived "condescenton" that is not intended. Most of your responses to me have been highly emotional. When I don't respond in kind you accuse me of being condescending. This is not true. I'm sorry it comes across that way. It simply isn't how I feel. It is a question, you deciding because it's nto emotional it doesn't deserve an answer is strange to me.

Are you seriously asking me to explain why I am intellectually frozen?

I am sorry to break this to you but you are inserting emotion, or attempting to project the emotional responses into what I am saying. If this is upsetting you, I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I assure you, as confident as you are in your position, I am equally confident in mine, so there is no anger. There is a sense of, "What?" but it's not anger. I will offer you a little piece of advice, though; if you wish to have an exchange of ideas, it's a pretty good idea to start off by not calling the opposition, "intellectually frozen." It's sort of indicative of your own frustrations. Just because you think you are being logical, it doesn't mean you are.

Where have I said that?

That you are rational and we can't think without emotion? You made it very easy, I don't have to go back and sift through 4 pages of posts because you followed that sentence up with

What I am asking is, IS IT POSSIBLE? I'm curious because as you have noted I am not as emotional in my responses as some people. For me I can sort of look at a situation very objectively, disassociatively etc and make a good judgement. But I learned over the years to do this. For a long time I would respond emotionally. What I'm wondering is if people think it is impossible for people to learn to separate their emotional reaction from the reality. So as not to internalize it and not create drama. (I'm not being condescending when I say create drama so I hope you don't take it that way.

Why are you assuming that we are not seperating emotion? For the record, though, I don't recall ever actually stating that you are not emotional. I've only noted that you continually remind us how unemotional and rational you are, about this situation.

Respectfully, I don't think you are being that rational about it. I've watched you go back and forth.

I was bullied relentlessly as a kid. Beaten up nearly every day after school. It sucked. I worked through it. I can see that it can cause someone to become suicidal and of course should be stopped at all costs. But please, enought with the victimspeak.

Then you stated this:

You can not bully someone into comitting suicide if the student has a strong rational approach to the situation. It is only when it spins out into emotion and psychological issues that it gets out of control.

Yet, you can see how it happens? The thing about bullying is, it has a funny way of chipping away at your self esteem. You are no longer able to have a strong rational approach because as you stated, later...

When I was bullied I was so isolated I really thought something was wrong with me.

Possibly forgetting that you already said this:

I never took it personally. Ever. I realized it was their problem not mine. I was bullied relentlessly every single day in junior high school. Beaten up on the way home, mocked and made fun of in the hallways. When I got to high school we merged with a different area of students so I had the chance to make new friends. But it never occurred to me to commit suicide because all of the girls in my gym class made fun of me day after day after day. I just thought they were beyotches. I didn't think it was my problem. I just knew I was different. It can be done, big giant message board letters aside.

I am sure what you mean to say is, in hindsight, you know not to take it personally but I do ask you if there was anyone you had to talk to, when you were a child. Did you have someone to go to?

Of course it is, but if you only expend energy there, then all you are going to do is keep doing the same thing over and over again. My goal would be preventative as well as reactive.

There are reactive measures. There are bully hotlines, suicide hotlines, counseling in school as well as a school psychologist, local support groups, and I am sure they help some. Victims don't want, only, to talk about it. They want it to stop. As far as I know, most grade schools are pushing the 'bully-free' school zone. The older kids, middle, junior, and high school tend to get a lot more vicious with their words and more aggressive with their actions seems to be where the reaction tends to be more, "suck it up," "just ignore it," "kids will be kids." The general tone in this thread appears to be, that needs to change. It should be equally untolerated through out the school years.

Of course. However how do you propose to do that? We're discussing ways to help with the issue of suicide resulting from bullying. So if that's the case the bullying has already occurred. We've already discussed zero tolerance for physical bullying.

I'm asking about strategies to deal with psychological bullying. Saying that we're going to prevent bullying WORDS in the world is very very unrealistic in my mind. How in the world can you enforce this?

In the grade school, where my two youngest attend, they put bullying and harassment in the same catagory. They do not mess around with it. The plaintiff files a formal complaint with the principal. The principal has a talk with the aggressor. The aggressor is informed that they are on official warning and if they do it again, legal action will be taken and they will be reported to the state. Once the aggressor makes another advance towards their target, they are immediately suspended for three days, a report is sent in to the state, and the aggressor is removed from that classroom. The aggressor is prohibited from all contact with the plaintiff and should the aggressor continue, they are expelled from school and is forced into a couseling program. The point is to teach the aggressor that such behavior is unacceptable. They offer the plaintiff counseling, as well, but at no time to they feel that being harassed is something they should just learn to deal with and not take it personal.

I'm more for educating students, using prevention and zero tolerance where possible can examining why some students take it to heart so so much and if they can be taught ways to cope with it better.

I'm sorry this seems condenscending and stupid to you. To me it seems quite realistic.

I never said it sounds stupid. Your reaction to being bullied, by your own words, was to feel isolated and wonder what's wrong with you. It's a horrible way to feel but a natural reaction. I am sure, as you got older, you learned that those people mean nothing in the grand scheme of things but in youth, school is your world. Explaining to the victim why they are being bullied is not going to make it hurt any less.

 

[Darat]

...snip...


In the grade school, where my two youngest attend, they put bullying and harassment in the same catagory. They do not mess around with it. The plaintiff files a formal complaint with the principal. The principal has a talk with the aggressor. The aggressor is informed that they are on official warning and if they do it again, legal action will be taken and they will be reported to the state. Once the aggressor makes another advance towards their target, they are immediately suspended for three days, a report is sent in to the state, and the aggressor is removed from that classroom. The aggressor is prohibited from all contact with the plaintiff and should the aggressor continue, they are expelled from school and is forced into a couseling program. The point is to teach the aggressor that such behavior is unacceptable. They offer the plaintiff counseling, as well, but at no time to they feel that being harassed is something they should just learn to deal with and not take it personal.


...snip...

That sounds a very sensible approach. I'm assuming that they do investigate the allegations before taking the first step?

How long have they been taking this approach and has there been any documented change in outcomes e.g. stopping bullying or preventing it escalating?

 

[truethat]

Wait I will respond to your post because there's a lot there that is very interesting. HOWEVER

Where the hell did you get me calling you intellectuall frozen? You even put it in quotation marks like I actually said it and you quoted me? I absolutely didn't say anything like that at all??????????????

 

[truethat]

Not only that, but aggressive information campains about how victims will be actively encouraged to report abuses, protected from retaliation, and the bullies and their parents will be held liable for the abuses.

This gets a little hazy when you are talking about verbal bullying. How is a parent to be held liable when they are not present? Also if the kid is 16 years old how do you teach them personal responsibility when you make mom and dad responsible for their WORDS? And what about overly sensitive kids that would take things differently or more to heart than a typical kid? Where do you draw the parameters around that?

In my opinion, holding the school liable for not preventing interaction is difficult but doable. The other problem with this is that students don't want to complain because they don't want to seem like a rat. And so in this case the situation requires intervention from friends and family. I do think that if the student, friend or family member or even a teacher is able to document a complaint it will give the school a leg to stand on and lines drawn quite clearly. Ex. Student is brought into the office....."A complaint has been filed against your behavior towards Jimmy, if you speak to Jimmy again or instigate any further activity towards this student you will be suspended. In addition you will have your school record marked for BULLYING. So leave them alone or risk the consequences."

Seems much simpler to me. Also it seems to me that many kids don't realize how they are behaving. This will be a wake up call.

No. Just telling victims "it's always been happening and will happen again, don't take it too bad, it's not about you" will solve nothing. What's needed is telling them "you've been a victim of abuse, we'll protect you from now on, we'll punish your abuser and prevent him/her to hurt you again", or in other words "we adults are going to behave as adults and make sure that kind of behavior becomes a thing of the past as much as we can".

See each person who has dismissed this has always simplified it tremendously. You see how you said "Just telling...." I'm not talking about just taking Jimmy into the office and saying "Dude don't take it personally, it happens." I'm talking about an education campaign in schools that identify the patterns of bullying and point out consequences and how students feel. Right now it seems to be an "elephant in the room." I do know that knowing myself that people "do this" doesn't make it go away, it just makes it easier for some people to deal with because they don't internalize it.

A comparison would be "racism."

 

[MarkCorrigan]

See each person who has dismissed this has always simplified it tremendously. You see how you said "Just telling...." I'm not talking about just taking Jimmy into the office and saying "Dude don't take it personally, it happens." I'm talking about an education campaign in schools that identify the patterns of bullying and point out consequences and how students feel. Right now it seems to be an "elephant in the room." I do know that knowing myself that people "do this" doesn't make it go away, it just makes it easier for some people to deal with because they don't internalize it.

A comparison would be "racism."

You still aren't getting it.

Most children will know what bullying is. They will know that it's common and that it is an unfair practice perpetrated against some who are different with no real basis in reality. I knew that when I was bullied. I'd rsee and hear about other examples of bullying and be able to absolutely rationalise and understand that what the bullies were saying was usually 100% made up crap intended to hurt the target.

Knowing about bullying on an intellectual level doesn't help a bullied child, especially a mentally fragile one, in the way you are assuming it will.

 

[truethat]

IRespectfully, I don't think you are being that rational about it. I've watched you go back and forth.



Then you stated this:



Yet, you can see how it happens? The thing about bullying is, it has a funny way of chipping away at your self esteem. You are no longer able to have a strong rational approach because as you stated, later...



Possibly forgetting that you already said this:

I felt isolated because I was not "like" the other students. I recognized this and understood that it was part of what was causing the reaction. I suppose what I'm saying is that in understanding that being different can cause such a reaction it makes sense of what is going on. It doesn't justify it, please understand I am not saying that.


I am sure what you mean to say is, in hindsight, you know not to take it personally but I do ask you if there was anyone you had to talk to, when you were a child. Did you have someone to go to?


Nope. I actually got punched right in the face causing my nose to bleed as we were standing in line in front of the Gym teacher. Nothing happened to the girl. I have no idea why.

There are reactive measures. There are bully hotlines, suicide hotlines, counseling in school as well as a school psychologist, local support groups, and I am sure they help some. Victims don't want, only, to talk about it. They want it to stop. As far as I know, most grade schools are pushing the 'bully-free' school zone. The older kids, middle, junior, and high school tend to get a lot more vicious with their words and more aggressive with their actions seems to be where the reaction tends to be more, "suck it up," "just ignore it," "kids will be kids." The general tone in this thread appears to be, that needs to change. It should be equally untolerated through out the school years.

I would wager bully hotlines etc are pretty useless. I agree that kids don't want to talk about it, they want it to stop. Understanding that it is a pattern and that it happens and HERE is how you get it to stop is what I'm advocating.
In the grade school, where my two youngest attend, they put bullying and harassment in the same catagory. They do not mess around with it. The plaintiff files a formal complaint with the principal. The principal has a talk with the aggressor. The aggressor is informed that they are on official warning and if they do it again, legal action will be taken and they will be reported to the state. Once the aggressor makes another advance towards their target, they are immediately suspended for three days, a report is sent in to the state, and the aggressor is removed from that classroom. The aggressor is prohibited from all contact with the plaintiff and should the aggressor continue, they are expelled from school and is forced into a couseling program. The point is to teach the aggressor that such behavior is unacceptable. They offer the plaintiff counseling, as well, but at no time to they feel that being harassed is something they should just learn to deal with and not take it personal.

This is also what I am advocating and have been for a while.
I never said it sounds stupid. Your reaction to being bullied, by your own words, was to feel isolated and wonder what's wrong with you. It's a horrible way to feel but a natural reaction. I am sure, as you got older, you learned that those people mean nothing in the grand scheme of things but in youth, school is your world. Explaining to the victim why they are being bullied is not going to make it hurt any less.

I didn't say it would make it hurt any less. But again, I'm talking about students who are committing suicide over bullying. I'm confused. Isn't the topic of this thread SUICIDE as a result of bullying? We're not talking about dealing with just general bullying but targeting kids who commit or attempt suicide over it. I don't see why this distinction is not clear. Many kids are bullied and harrassed in school. Not all of them commit suicide. Lumping them all into the same category is a mistake in my opinion.

 

[Flo]

See each person who has dismissed this has always simplified it tremendously. You see how you said "Just telling...." I'm not talking about just taking Jimmy into the office and saying "Dude don't take it personally, it happens."

Unfortunately, it's only now that you make your meaning clear.

I'm talking about an education campaign in schools that identify the patterns of bullying and point out consequences and how students feel. Right now it seems to be an "elephant in the room." I do know that knowing myself that people "do this" doesn't make it go away, it just makes it easier for some people to deal with because they don't internalize it.

A comparison would be "racism."

Knowing that bullying, or racism, happens won't make it easier for the vast majority of victims. Knowing that it won't be tolerated, that they can be protected from it and that people in charge will actually take steps to make it stop will. The education campains need to target perpetrators, not their victims. Unsurprisingly, those tend to know it happens ...

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I didn't say it would make it hurt any less. But again, I'm talking about students who are committing suicide over bullying. I'm confused. Isn't the topic of this thread SUICIDE as a result of bullying? We're not talking about dealing with just general bullying but targeting kids who commit or attempt suicide over it. I don't see why this distinction is not clear. Many kids are bullied and harrassed in school. Not all of them commit suicide. Lumping them all into the same category is a mistake in my opinion.

Except that, as has been pointed out to you several times, the children most likely to attempt or consider suicide due to bullying are the ones who are least likely to respond well if at all to your idea.

 

[truethat]

You still aren't getting it.

Most children will know what bullying is. They will know that it's common and that it is an unfair practice perpetrated against some who are different with no real basis in reality. I knew that when I was bullied. I'd rsee and hear about other examples of bullying and be able to absolutely rationalise and understand that what the bullies were saying was usually 100% made up crap intended to hurt the target.

Knowing about bullying on an intellectual level doesn't help a bullied child, especially a mentally fragile one, in the way you are assuming it will.

What are you backing this up with? In my experience it does help people who are emotionally distraught to try to look at the situation in a realistic manner rather than an emotional one. It helps give a perspective, a bigger picture.

My experience has been that people who understand that bullying is a problem and understand what is going on DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE over it. They suffer and are hurt and yes there is lasting psychological damage but they do not commit suicide. It is a different situation entirely.

Perhaps as I said way earlier, I'm looking at this topic through too narrow of a lens. But I'm only addressing kids who commit suicide.

 

[Flo]

I didn't say it would make it hurt any less. But again, I'm talking about students who are committing suicide over bullying. I'm confused. Isn't the topic of this thread SUICIDE as a result of bullying? We're not talking about dealing with just general bullying but targeting kids who commit or attempt suicide over it. I don't see why this distinction is not clear. Many kids are bullied and harrassed in school. Not all of them commit suicide. Lumping them all into the same category is a mistake in my opinion.

I don't think so. There's no defined line between kids who will not be all that affected by bullying, those who will be affected but not enough to commit suicide and those who will.

 

[truethat]

Except that, as has been pointed out to you several times, the children most likely to attempt or consider suicide due to bullying are the ones who are least likely to respond well if at all to your idea.

Based on what? What evidence do you use to back this up? Because I have seen numerous people discuss being bullied to the point of considering suicide but when interventions were made that helped show them it wasn't about THEM that they did not attempt suicide.

 

[truethat]

I don't think so. There's no defined line between kids who will not be all that affected by bullying, those who will be affected but not enough to commit suicide and those who will.

Hmm I think this needs research. I would disagree with you on this point. I'm going to research this a bit more because I think you are wrong.

 

[truethat]

Unfortunately, it's only now that you make your meaning clear.

No, it's only now that you've actually read what I'm saying. This is the third time it's happened in this thread. I'm pretty sure some other people got what I was saying from the get go. I haven't changed my stance, perhaps I explained it better but Darat seemed to understand it right away. So did Wudang.

Just a cursory bit of research shows that educating kids about bullying helps reduce it. You will note that the education campaigns were aimed BOTH at the Bully and the BULLIED.

http://www.knowledge.offordcentre.c...lying&catid=48:bullying-and-teasing&Itemid=29

 

[MarkCorrigan]

In the immortal words of Charlie Brown; good grief.

What are you backing this up with?

Um, basic psychology, personal experience and having known others who were bullied?

Do you seriously think that there are any kids who do not know what you intend on teaching them? If you do, boy are you in for a surprise.... Television, films and other societal stimuli talk to children about bullying and how it's wrong, based on nonsense and so on from a very young age. Kids know what bullying is. They know that it is often based on nothing, and they understand that bullies are venting aggression in some way (aside from the sociopaths, but they're exceptionally rare). What makes you think your education campaign will be any more effective than the enormous media bombardment with the same message children are already subjected to every day?

In my experience it does help people who are emotionally distraught to try to look at the situation in a realistic manner rather than an emotional one. It helps give a perspective, a bigger picture.

My experience has been that people who understand that bullying is a problem and understand what is going on DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE over it.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. Has it not occured to you that maybe the reason they don't contemplate suicide is precisely because they can do that?

They suffer and are hurt and yes there is lasting psychological damage but they do not commit suicide. It is a different situation entirely.

Again, you have a serious and critical failure in understanding the minds of mentally fragile young people. That you won't listen to those of us who were/are mentally fragile and keep repeating your mantra that education will help stop suicides is simply stunning.

Perhaps as I said way earlier, I'm looking at this topic through too narrow of a lens. But I'm only addressing kids who commit suicide.

Again, those who commit, attempt or contemplate suicide will probably not be helped by your idea which means that it's an even bigger failure than I previously thought.

You're taking what is a reasonable and logical idea (although absolutely not a novel one) for helping most "normal" bullied kids what won't work on the mentally unstable, and trying to apply it solely to the mentally unstable!