Bullycide

[truethat]

No I'm not. I'm a logical and rational person. The evidence bears out that groups of kids ALWAYS forever and ever have bullied the "odd bird." The "odd bird" could be someone more intelligent, someone who looks weird, someone gay, someone kind and compassionate, etc. The only thing that matters is that the student "isn't like" the group.

The group think is pretty standard. It has been evidenced and studied. It is real.

Combining these two things has a predictable outcome. It isn't NOT their fault. The bullies have a choice not to bully. It isn't that they can't control this side of themselves. They are certainly at fault and responsible for their actions.

However I'm concerned about the victim of the bullying and ways to help the kid cope better with it. As we have seen in this thread, people have tried numerous ways to get it to stop. I am concerned about life long lasting psychological damage to a student who is a victim of bullying. The topic is bullycide, or suicide of the student who felt bullied.

My question is, can we educate the victim to understand better the dynamics of the situation and not take it to heart to the point that they commit suicide.
It seems to me a better approach because we can't STOP bullying. We can only punish bullying. I would encourage helping the victim and making clear the pattern of this in the world and helping students see the bigger picture.

I'm sorry you think I was blaming you. I'm not.


btw I think calling someone a sick and evil person is just as bad as bullying someone. What would you call it? Yet I don't internalize it or take it to heart because I can understand how you would feel that way. I know it's just lashing out. This "rationalization" or "disassociation" of your behavior towards me, leaves me feeling NOT like a victim just an observer of your attack.

snip

I think you are misunderstanding truethat's point (of course I could be the one misunderstanding it).

What she is saying is that since bullying does happen and it is unlikely that we will ever eradicate it we need good ways to help the victim. And one of the ways is to try and make sure the victim of bullying does not think that they are responsible at all for being bullied. It is like tying to help someone who has been raped to come to terms with the rape and ensuring they do not blame themselves for being the victim.

Yep that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

(in reply to 3point14)
No, I'd analogize truethat's position (if I may) to be more like teaching a learner drive that people will do stupid, crazy, dangerous, angry things while driving and that it's a good idea to develop defensive skills to keep you out of danger and not to get emotional about it yourself in so far as is possible. Ideally the police would be pulling these halfwits over and thrashing them within an inch of their lives cautioning them. But given we can't always have that maybe we should also look at what coping skills we can help the victim develop.

These are from page 3

Mark Corrigan (I'm posting here because I feel like I'm posting too much)

The evidence does not bear out your statements. Research shows that educating BOTH the bully and THE BULLIED has a positive effect on the situation.

I'm not sure why you are just saying that it's not going to work when it does work as studies have shown. It seems that those on this thread who are oversimplifying what I am saying are the ones in disagreement with me.

Here's another site that is doing what I am suggesting

http://www.education.com/reference/article/school-bullying-peer-group-dynamics/?page=2

What Can Teachers and Parents do to Prevent Bullying?
Although we argue that bullying is a natural byproduct of classroom social dynamics, we are not suggesting that it is acceptable or that it is inevitable. On the contrary, our work suggests that when teachers and parents are aware of school social dynamics they can create classroom environments that reduce the development of the structures and processes that contribute to bullying

More to read on the link

And to clarify. I'm realizing that I'm approaching this based on the specifics of a teen who would commit suicide. Although there have been circumstances of suicide among very young students, teenagers are usually those who commit suicide. Therefor I am assuming that the approach is one that based on their developement would be realistic. However if a student is not functioning on the same level as a typical teen then it obviously is not going to work.

 

[Sabrina]

If I may interject again; I think the confusion is arising because your posts seem to merely advocate education without really addressing the overall problem. It's all well and good to explain to a child that they are not at fault because little Jimmy called them names or pushed them down, but the mind of a child is not the mind of an adult, and those sorts of rational thoughts are somewhat beyond them. Even the mind of an adolescent has trouble comprehending that sort of thing, in my experience (I may be mistaken, however). A child is a bundle of emotions; logic and rationality are often well beyond their mental capacity to a certain extent. A child would rather see the bully punished for their actions rather than have to sit there and listen to an adult explain that it's not their fault that little Jimmy is attacking them when little Jimmy is clearly insulting or belittling them and saying things that make it seem as though it IS their fault.

I'm not saying education is a bad idea; in fact, I advocated something similar in my initial post, although not to the level of detail you've come up with. But many of your posts have seemed to indicate that you feel this is pretty much all it would take to mitigate the issue, and that stance I would have to disagree with; it's going to take a lot more than that. However, that is again my perception of the situation.

 

[sgtbaker]

Wait I will respond to your post because there's a lot there that is very interesting. HOWEVER

Where the hell did you get me calling you intellectuall frozen? You even put it in quotation marks like I actually said it and you quoted me? I absolutely didn't say anything like that at all??????????????

My question is why is it that people seem to freeze intellectually once emotions are involved???????????????????????????????? (Hope that's enough question marks for people to realize it is a question)

I said calling people intellectually frozen. I asked if you were addressing me and if not, who were these emotional and intellectually frozen people of which you spoke?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I'm not saying education is a bad idea; in fact, I advocated something similar in my initial post, although not to the level of detail you've come up with. But many of your posts have seemed to indicate that you feel this is pretty much all it would take to mitigate the issue, and that stance I would have to disagree with; it's going to take a lot more than that. However, that is again my perception of the situation.

Exactly.

I'm all for setting up something similar to what you describe Truethat, I just understand that in a great many cases of mentally fragile people, it wouldn't help. That isn't to say I think the idea is stupid, or that it wouldn't help any kids. Goodness knows there are a great many children that it would help, and it might well help a proportion of kids who contemplate suicide.

My point was that you were rather blasé about the entire situation, using sweeping statements about how you think that this will help stop kids from attempting suicide, and that you know that this will help the bullied kids because it helps in some situations that you've seen.

That is what the problem is here. You could easily be thinking that this will help a great nmber of kids, but that a significant portion will not be helped,, and that we need other methods to help them, but that isn't how you come across. You come across as dismissive of those people who tell you over and over that it wouldn't work for everyone, and frankly, when you dismiss what I'm saying in the way that you did, it once again comes across as you refusing to believe my own testimony based on my own knowledge of the situation. It looks and feels like you're telling me that I'm either lying or mistaken about my own personal situation and that if I only thought rationally, then even children like me could be helped by the TrueThat plan.

 

[truethat]

If I may interject again; I think the confusion is arising because your posts seem to merely advocate education without really addressing the overall problem. It's all well and good to explain to a child that they are not at fault because little Jimmy called them names or pushed them down, but the mind of a child is not the mind of an adult, and those sorts of rational thoughts are somewhat beyond them. Even the mind of an adolescent has trouble comprehending that sort of thing, in my experience (I may be mistaken, however). A child is a bundle of emotions; logic and rationality are often well beyond their mental capacity to a certain extent. A child would rather see the bully punished for their actions rather than have to sit there and listen to an adult explain that it's not their fault that little Jimmy is attacking them when little Jimmy is clearly insulting or belittling them and saying things that make it seem as though it IS their fault.

I'm not saying education is a bad idea; in fact, I advocated something similar in my initial post, although not to the level of detail you've come up with. But many of your posts have seemed to indicate that you feel this is pretty much all it would take to mitigate the issue, and that stance I would have to disagree with; it's going to take a lot more than that. However, that is again my perception of the situation.

Yeah why would that be? I mean seriously people. Do I really really need to explain to you over and over again that I'm NOT talking about giving Jimmy a chuff on the chin and telling him to hang in there? We're talking about frickin suicide here?



Also I've clearly stated at least twice that the school should be held liable and specific measures. I'm sorry but frankly I'm a little surprised that you all think I'm advocating "talking to" the kid as if that's going to help. In addition little kids do not normally commit suicide. Teenagers do. I believe educating teenagers is possible and helpful precisely because they are of an age to understand the dynamics.

I don't believe that any intelligent person could read what I'm writing and deduce that. I do think you are intelligent as are all of the posters on thsi thread. So it's curious to me. The emotional backlash I'm getting is twisting a very simple concept into the most ridiculous of contortions and suggesting that I'm blaming the victim and acting as if it's SO SIMPLE.

I just am sitting here shaking my head at the moment. Are you seriously suggesting that this is what you think I mean?

 

[truethat]

I said calling people intellectually frozen. I asked if you were addressing me and if not, who were these emotional and intellectually frozen people of which you spoke?

No what I mean is the way when emotions take over it's as if reality goes out the window. This happens very often with people and I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. If you don't I will try to explain but I think you know what I mean.

 

[truethat]

Exactly.

I'm all for setting up something similar to what you describe Truethat, I just understand that in a great many cases of mentally fragile people, it wouldn't help. That isn't to say I think the idea is stupid, or that it wouldn't help any kids. Goodness knows there are a great many children that it would help, and it might well help a proportion of kids who contemplate suicide.

My point was that you were rather blasé about the entire situation, using sweeping statements about how you think that this will help stop kids from attempting suicide, and that you know that this will help the bullied kids because it helps in some situations that you've seen.

That is what the problem is here. You could easily be thinking that this will help a great nmber of kids, but that a significant portion will not be helped,, and that we need other methods to help them, but that isn't how you come across. You come across as dismissive of those people who tell you over and over that it wouldn't work for everyone, and frankly, when you dismiss what I'm saying in the way that you did, it once again comes across as you refusing to believe my own testimony based on my own knowledge of the situation. It looks and feels like you're telling me that I'm either lying or mistaken about my own personal situation and that if I only thought rationally, then even children like me could be helped by the TrueThat plan.

Right. I'm blase on the situation of kids committing suicide over bullying. Because that is a very realistic response to the idea of suicide. You know, so what, the kid kills himself. Darwinism at it's finest. If he couldn't take it then better off for the world. That's exactly what I am saying.

Please note the above is extreme sarcasm.

I think people jump on things that trip their emotional wires on this site and then try to blame it on the other poster when NOTHING that you have said I've said.

An education campaign that points out the patterns of bullying introduced into the school system. In addition a liablitiy campaign that creates a paper trail that makes the school liable for any sort of problem that results from bullying including therapy, counseling and monetary damages.

My god, what am I thinking. The ridiculousness of it all is astounding.


facepalm.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Right. I'm blase on the situation of kids committing suicide over bullying. Because that is a very realistic response to the idea of suicide. You know, so what, the kid kills himself. Darwinism at it's finest. If he couldn't take it then better off for the world. That's exactly what I am saying.

Please note the above is extreme sarcasm.

It's also nothing like what I said. Did you even read the post you're replying to? I am trying to get you to understand that you come across as painting with a brush broad enough to paint the Golden Gate Bridge in 10 minutes, not that you don't take child suicides seriously.

I think people jump on things that trip their emotional wires on this site and then try to blame it on the other poster when NOTHING that you have said I've said.

Again, did you even read what I wrote? I said more than once that I would support a system like the one you propose! I think it's a good idea now I finally understand what you meant.

An education campaign that points out the patterns of bullying introduced into the school system. In addition a liablitiy campaign that creates a paper trail that makes the school liable for any sort of problem that results from bullying including therapy, counseling and monetary damages.

My god, what am I thinking. The ridiculousness of it all is astonding.

Again, I doubt anyone here thinks this is a bad idea, and I outright stated I think it's a good one! The problem people are having is that you seem to be completely immune to being told it won't help some children. That is all I'm trying to point out to you. It wouldn't have helped me or people like me, so you can't assume that all children are the same. That. Is. All. We. Are. Saying.

facepalm.

For someone who tells us regularly how interesting it is that the emotional people are resorting to name calling and meanness, you're sure quite to be impolite yourself.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Truethat, if you still can't see why people are perceiving your views on the matter so negatively, then you should reread your first couple of posts on this thread.

 

[Sabrina]

I will point out again that perception in this case is key, truethat.

What you are thinking you are saying is not necessarily what other people are perceiving you are saying. Belittling their perceptions of your words doesn't necessarily help your case either, incidentally.

This is a fundamental limitation of debate on an internet forum; without the nuances that the human ear perceives in a person's voice and the fleeting expressions that the human eye perceives on a person's face, it is almost impossible without using a LOT of qualifying language to read a person's post exactly as they meant it to be read. YOU know what you mean; but WE don't necessarily perceive what you intended to be perceived. We cannot read your mind over the internet, nor can you read ours, so it becomes extremely necessary to post carefully.

 

[truethat]

It's also nothing like what I said. Did you even read the post you're replying to? I am trying to get you to understand that you come across as painting with a brush broad enough to paint the Golden Gate Bridge in 10 minutes, not that you don't take child suicides seriously.



Again, did you even read what I wrote? I said more than once that I would support a system like the one you propose! I think it's a good idea now I finally understand what you meant.

Again, I doubt anyone here thinks this is a bad idea, and I outright stated I think it's a good one! The problem people are having is that you seem to be completely immune to being told it won't help some children. That is all I'm trying to point out to you. It wouldn't have helped me or people like me, so you can't assume that all children are the same. That. Is. All. We. Are. Saying.




For someone who tells us regularly how interesting it is that the emotional people are resorting to name calling and meanness, you're sure quite to be impolite yourself.

A facepalm is emotional, name calling and meanness and impolite?

You just wrote that you FINALLY understood what I have been saying. And that you agree with it to some degree?

I'm a little frustrated here at being told I'm "blase" at the idea of kids comitting suicide. I apologize.


Also

IamtheScum, the first posts were in regard to the way things are generally turned into "sound bites." I thought the concept of terming it "bullycide" was a bit much. Most especially because of the way "nerdicide and dorkicide" rolled out immediately in response. Quite typical and turning something serious into a joke, which is how I perceive attempts to make "sound bites" of trauma.

And if you are still on the first pages then I guess I don't know what to tell you. But some people seemed to understand what I am saying right away.

 

[truethat]

I will point out again that perception in this case is key, truethat.

What you are thinking you are saying is not necessarily what other people are perceiving you are saying. Belittling their perceptions of your words doesn't necessarily help your case either, incidentally.

This is a fundamental limitation of debate on an internet forum; without the nuances that the human ear perceives in a person's voice and the fleeting expressions that the human eye perceives on a person's face, it is almost impossible without using a LOT of qualifying language to read a person's post exactly as they meant it to be read. YOU know what you mean; but WE don't necessarily perceive what you intended to be perceived. We cannot read your mind over the internet, nor can you read ours, so it becomes extremely necessary to post carefully.

I agree and you know I'm trying to post more carefully.

However, I just find it daunting that I need to explain that I'm not saying that "talking to" the kid is going to fix the problem.

Also to Mark Corrigan. Painting the Golden Gate bridge will take a huge brush because it's such a huge thing. The same thing in my mind with bullying. It's a huge problem that has been around forever. To start we need broad plans. Unfortunately that's the reality of school systems.

Added

You keep saying it won't help some children. Well YEAH? Hello? Obviously it can't help everyone. But we can start something that will help a lot of kids.

 

[richardm]

In the grade school, where my two youngest attend, they put bullying and harassment in the same catagory. They do not mess around with it. The plaintiff files a formal complaint with the principal. The principal has a talk with the aggressor. The aggressor is informed that they are on official warning and if they do it again, legal action will be taken and they will be reported to the state. Once the aggressor makes another advance towards their target, they are immediately suspended for three days, a report is sent in to the state, and the aggressor is removed from that classroom. The aggressor is prohibited from all contact with the plaintiff and should the aggressor continue, they are expelled from school and is forced into a couseling program. The point is to teach the aggressor that such behavior is unacceptable. They offer the plaintiff counseling, as well, but at no time to they feel that being harassed is something they should just learn to deal with and not take it personal.

That sounds a very sensible approach.

It's a sensible approach so long as you can convince the victims to actually make the complaints in the first place. A lot of the time this can be difficult to do - although if you can genuinely convince them that action will actually result then it might help.

 

[Sabrina]

I agree and you know I'm trying to post more carefully.

However, I just find it daunting that I need to explain that I'm not saying that "talking to" the kid is going to fix the problem. ~snip~

Well see, that right there was the perception that Mark (please correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, Mark) and perhaps others had of your posts; that simply talking to every single kid WOULD fix the problem. We know now that perception was incorrect, but that was in fact how it came across.

 

[truethat]

It's a sensible approach so long as you can convince the victims to actually make the complaints in the first place. A lot of the time this can be difficult to do - although if you can genuinely convince them that action will actually result then it might help.

This is my concern as well which is why I want to approach the problem both from the point of the bully and the victim.

We can teach kids not to bully and create consequences but unfortunately a consequence only arises AFTER the bullying has occurred. Precisely because a student will internalize it and not report it is why I think it is also important to educate the victim about the dynamics of bullying.

 

[truethat]

Well see, that right there was the perception that Mark (please correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, Mark) and perhaps others had of your posts; that simply talking to every single kid WOULD fix the problem. We know now that perception was incorrect, but that was in fact how it came across.

I suppose, I'm a little frustrated that anyone would ever suggest that this is what I'm saying. It seems a GIVEN that it is not what I am saying. Only an idiot would suggest this.

Edited to add

Darat and Wudang got it right away? So why is it others didn't?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

A facepalm is emotional, name calling and meanness and impolite?

No. That's the latest example of it. Would you like me to get more? It isn't going to be hard.

You just wrote that you FINALLY understood what I have been saying. And that you agree with it to some degree?

Yes. In fact, after your latest post, I agree with your plan pretty much fully. It's a great idea, although again, not one that is new to you.

I'm a little frustrated here at being told I'm "blase" at the idea of kids comitting suicide. I apologize.

1. That isn't what I said. If you misunderstood then maybe I could have made myself clearer.

2. Why is it ok for you to get emotional, but not ok for others?

I agree and you know I'm trying to post more carefully.

That's great, but you're still attacking people who don't understand you because your communication is still dodgy.

However, I just find it daunting that I need to explain that I'm not saying that "talking to" the kid is going to fix the problem.

That's exactly what you seemed to be saying though.

More than one of us read it that way. If so many peple are failing to understand you, it generally isn't their fault.

Also to Mark Corrigan. Painting the Golden Gate bridge will take a huge brush because it's such a huge thing. The same thing in my mind with bullying. It's a huge problem that has been around forever. To start we need broad plans. Unfortunately that's the reality of school systems.

Ok, I kind of get what you mean here, and I also kind of agree, but you seem to not understand what I mean when I said about a broad brush. You came across, deliberately or not, as overgeneralising.

Added

You keep saying it won't help some children. Well YEAH? Hello? Obviously it can't help everyone. But we can start something that will help a lot of kids.

Which no one here disagrees with. The problem wasn't what you were advocating it was what youi were SAYING. You looked, repeatedly, like you were dismissing me and others who disagreed with you, acting like you had found something that could totally fix the problem, and treating anyone who misunderstood you or just plain disagreed with you like they were idiots. You can't say that you weren't condescending because we all said you were. There's a difference between not being something and not meaning to be it.

 

[Flo]

I suppose, I'm a little frustrated that anyone would ever suggest that this is what I'm saying. It seems a GIVEN that it is not what I am saying. Only an idiot would suggest this.

Edited to add

Darat and Wudang got it right away? So why is it others didn't?

Because of course we're all idiots ...

 

[truethat]

Starting over if I may.

What I am suggesting is that if we take the stigma away from bullying and turn it into a simple reality that it might encourage students to recognize what is happening and come forward.

For example if we teach about group dynamics and the patterns associated with bullying, we can in a way take the power away from the bully by treating a bully as the one with the problem who needs intervention. Right now it is presented as the victim is the one with the problem who needs help.

If a student is a victim of bullying and understands that "this happens all the time and the way to solve it is XYZ" then the student may be more likely to step forward.

The most common response I've seen to bullying is that the kid doesn't tell their parent because they don't want the parent to make a scene at the school. The kid will get in trouble for bullying and then come after the victim even more, perhaps using covert methods. So most kids don't say anything.

If the approach is more BLASE and not so emotional, then it might create a systematic change. In other words it turns less into an emotional issue and more into a behavior managment issue. By taking the taboo out of bullying and turing it into a typical behavior pattern that happens in all schools across the country with a system and protocol of action, I think it will be easier to handle it.

I think much of the psychological trauma in these situations comes from feelings of shame and embarrasment and fear on the part of the victim.

Let's make it a system of dealing with it. If a student turns in a report even about their friend it's filed and dealt with in a swift and precise manner. In my opinion, over time this will reduce bullying by taking it out of the corners and into the light.

For a friend or family member to step forward on behalf of the victim it would require a sense that there is something that will be done in a system. If the school runs education campaigns that point out the common behavior and dynamics of bullying and takes a zero tolerance policy it will help.

Also what will help is the idea that the student who is doing the bullying is probably reacting in a typical way based on group dynamics. Instead of this fear that the bully is going to get in "trouble" we present it as the bully is going to get "intervention."

In my opinion this is the best solution to the problem.

 

[GreyArea]

Thank you, GreyArea for responding to my query. I truly appreciate it.

You are very, very welcome, LibraryLady.

I have had my own bad experiences as a victim of bullying. This compels me to look into local policies (in other words, take my own suggestion). I have nieces and nephews, so I should look into the policies of their schools, and this would be doubly important if I ever have a child of my own.

LibraryLady, you may appreciate this:

Anti-Bullying Bill passes North Dakota House

Thanks for finding this, Captain Sabrina. Now I'm curious if my state has anything similar.