Breaking down telepathy

[PixyMisa]

I cant say I ever reached a rock hard conclusion that it was telepathy. When diagnosing an animal theres always the big grey area, because you can know the area thats affected, and you can make educated guesses as to whats causing it but actually finding out the exact problem is the tricky part. Often we treat for a broad range to eliminate possibilities, I only said I had a knack for narrowing the range. Since Ive never kept records on every animal and my 'hunches' before we went to the vet, I cant answer your question, Im sorry.

Well, that's been precisely the point we've been making all along.

There is no possible way for telepathy to work - and no evidence that it does. So there's little point to testing for it in any way unless you have specifically excluded all the more plausible explanations.

 

[PixyMisa]

Your suspicions might be correct, I might be wrong. Even if Im not, I cant prove it

Why not?

If it works, it can be demonstrated to work. The only reason for it to be impossible to demonstrate in principle would be if it didn't work.

All else is special pleading.

 

[PixyMisa]

I'm referring to the use of 'chi' by shaolin monks

What use of chi by shaolin monks?

use of telepathy and telekineses by krishna yogis.

What use of telepathy and telekinesis by krishna yogis?

Its all speculation, none of it has been properly tested or accurately reported.

It's been tested. It doesn't work.

Its just the idea of training your mind to affect your energy flow I like

There's no such thing. (My italics.)

 

[PixyMisa]

Has anyone had any experience with mimicking the words of another as they come out of their mouth? Not with the intention of mocking but a way of practicing your ability to perceive what they are about to say. I usually do it while watching television as a way of practicing.

Some people can instantly repeat what another person is saying - not repeat it back afterwards, but as they are speaking.

Nothing special involved, though not everyone can do it.

If you have, have you ever tried to do that practice with their thought?

How would you even know if you succeeded?

 

[Kleonaptra]

What use of chi by shaolin monks?

What use of telepathy and telekinesis by krishna yogis?

It's been tested. It doesn't work.


There's no such thing. (My italics.)

The horse was dead on other threads pixy, can you put down the whip please? I accepted before I ever joined this forum that I couldnt change anyone's mind, why is it so important to you to change mine?

 

[Kleonaptra]

I forgot something.. a sort of practice.

Has anyone had any experience with mimicking the words of another as they come out of their mouth? Not with the intention of mocking but a way of practicing your ability to perceive what they are about to say. I usually do it while watching television as a way of practicing.

If you have, have you ever tried to do that practice with their thought?

My mum in law always knows what everyone is going to say before they say it. It drives me nuts.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yes, less distraction but also simpler goals - eating, sleeping, breeding, surviving. So, simpler images might mean its easier to 'read' them but Im not sure it can be tested accurately or in a way that would satisfy everyone.

Of course it can. If it does something, it can be tested. We can define experimental controls and statistically significant levels for positive results. We can replicate the experiments to check that the controls were applied correctly, we can form more specific hypotheses and test those.

The fact that whenever we perform these tests we find that the claimed effects DO NOT EXIST does not mean that we can't test them. It means they DO NOT EXIST.

I have read about people who can use mental energies, and all of the people who have been reported to do it consistantly are closed off from society, they live simple lives and meditate for most of their day.

I've read about this chick who wore glass shoes, which must have been terribly uncomfortable.

People like this arent interested in testing their abilities or the million dollars, these are people seeking inner peace.

Well, isn't that convenient?

 

[PixyMisa]

The horse was dead on other threads pixy, can you put down the whip please?

The horse is dead, but you're still riding it.

So, no.

I accepted before I ever joined this forum that I couldnt change anyone's mind, why is it so important to you to change mine?

This is a skeptics forum. Every time you make an unsupported claim, it will be challenged.

If you don't like that, just stop talking nonsense and it will stop happening.

 

[Pixel42]

FWIW it occurred to me soon after I posted my tentative protocol that it wouldn't be acceptable because it would mean upsetting the animal. And quite right too. Of course a protocol where an increase in the animal's happiness rather than distress was consistently detected would be just as workable.

Kleonaptra, it seems to me that you already know in your heart that your unusual empathy for animals does not require any paranormal ability such as telepathy. If you want to do a proper test to determine whether it does or not you're in the right place for advice. If you're happy to continue to rely on your hunches without knowing whence they come, that's fine too. But you're the one who came to a board dedicated to scepticism and critical thinking and claimed to be able to read animals' minds, so it's a bit disingenuous of you to complain when other posters point out you have no evidence for that claim.

 

[PixyMisa]

Substitute grad students for horses. They're cheaper and no-one cares what you do with them.

 

[Kleonaptra]

FWIW it occurred to me soon after I posted my tentative protocol that it wouldn't be acceptable because it would mean upsetting the animal. And quite right too. Of course a protocol where an increase in the animal's happiness rather than distress was consistently detected would be just as workable.

Kleonaptra, it seems to me that you already know in your heart that your unusual empathy for animals does not require any paranormal ability such as telepathy. If you want to do a proper test to determine whether it does or not you're in the right place for advice. If you're happy to continue to rely on your hunches without knowing whence they come, that's fine too. But you're the one who came to a board dedicated to scepticism and critical thinking and claimed to be able to read animals' minds, so it's a bit disingenuous of you to complain when other posters point out you have no evidence for that claim.

I really like the sound of that

Im always happy to converse with you Pixel.

I did not claim to read animals minds. I very carefully worded all my posts to include reading of body language and observation of the animal. The only thing I have claimed is that with training, I should be able to improve my telepathy. Thats it. I have admitted to being in the grey area, when I joined the forum I knew Id be challenged, and to anyone who believes theres no evidence and never will be, thats fine. Thats their position. People like me and Gizmo and kblood have a different one, and Im sure both of them would agree, we dont even know where it is. My personal opinion, thats exactly why I joined the forum, to learn more, to experience other people's thoughts. Ive enjoyed Pauls thoughts, and from now on I'll try to make more notes.

I'd be happy, if people wanted to volunteer, to try a simple test. We'll put someone in the backyard with my stallion, and offer an apple, a piece of bread, a bit of stud mix, and a cookie, and I'll sit in the front yard and see if I can tell what order he ate them in. That could be fun. But Im tremendously bonded to him and I doubt I could replicate it with another animal.

If I had a claim, I'd be in the MDC threads. With a day job, a family and an animal rescue centre to run, I estimate I may be able to spend half an hour a day training my ability. Im going to use basic symbol cards in the exact same way a zener deck is used and see if meditation and regular training can improve my accuracy. Every time Ive tried to do this, my volunteers drop out, so Im going to work harder on it.

 

[dafydd]

The horse was dead on other threads pixy, can you put down the whip please? I accepted before I ever joined this forum that I couldnt change anyone's mind, why is it so important to you to change mine?

The E in JREF stands for educational.

 

[Kleonaptra]

The horse is dead, but you're still riding it.

So, no.


This is a skeptics forum. Every time you make an unsupported claim, it will be challenged.

If you don't like that, just stop talking nonsense and it will stop happening.

Im simply saying there is a bias to the evidence you want. I have only made one claim - that with time I can improve my accuracy in telepathy. The rest is all speculation and I have carefully worded my posts on this thread and others to include the scientifically accepted reasons. One of my very first posts on my own thread stated that only my perception of anything made it supernatural.

On this thread I said my mother in law knew when I went into labour, can you explain that?

I knew, on picking up my last rescue animal, that it had intestinal worms, what are your thoughts on this?

I claimed to have a medically diagnosed psychosis. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

I also claimed to be poorly educated. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

Basically, you know I dont have evidence, Ive admitted it many times, and if I did I'd be in the MDC right now. So if we both know I dont have the evidence you want, why do you keep asking for it.

 

[Kleonaptra]

The E in JREF stands for educational.

Yep. And Im here to be educated. Never disputed that for a minute.

 

[Pixel42]

The only thing I have claimed is that with training, I should be able to improve my telepathy. Thats it.

That claim assumes the existence of telepathy, which is what is being disputed. That is an unevidenced, and therefore unwarranted, assumption.

I have admitted to being in the grey area, when I joined the forum I knew Id be challenged, and to anyone who believes theres no evidence and never will be, thats fine.

We know there's currently no empirical evidence of telepathy, despite decades of attempts to obtain some. Whether there ever will be is a different question; a sceptic cannot rule it out, which is why we're always keen to examine any new evidence that is presented. The trouble is that people who think they've got such evidence invariably turn out to have only a few anecdotes which look exactly like the sort of anecdotes that previous investigation and testing has determined are entirely due to well known cognitive biases.

I'd be happy, if people wanted to volunteer, to try a simple test. We'll put someone in the backyard with my stallion, and offer an apple, a piece of bread, a bit of stud mix, and a cookie, and I'll sit in the front yard and see if I can tell what order he ate them in. That could be fun.

Sounds good. I hope you do get a volunteer, as I'd be very interested in the result. Don't forget you need to out of earshot, as well as sight, of your horse.

But Im tremendously bonded to him and I doubt I could replicate it with another animal.

You haven't found out if you can do it with this animal yet. It's this kind of comment which makes it sound like you have already reached an unwarranted conclusion, and prompts the sort of response you were complaining about above.

 

[The Don]

Im simply saying there is a bias to the evidence you want. I have only made one claim - that with time I can improve my accuracy in telepathy. The rest is all speculation and I have carefully worded my posts on this thread and others to include the scientifically accepted reasons. One of my very first posts on my own thread stated that only my perception of anything made it supernatural.

The phrase "....with time I can improve my accuracy in telepathy" contains a clear statement that telepathy exists. All good experimental work to date has shown this not to be the case.

Unless you can provide evidence (and remember that the plural of anecdote is not evidence) then you'll be challenged

On this thread I said my mother in law knew when I went into labour, can you explain that?

There are a number of mundane explanations including that she had a feeling of knowing for a long time and it was only validated when she found out that you had gone into labour.

If she had no idea that you were pregnant and knew, to the second, when you went into labour and documented the time and date then that would be a remarkable coincidence. If she was able to do it repeatedly under controlled circumstances for other women that would be paranormal but "knowing" in this sense is not that unusual.

I knew, on picking up my last rescue animal, that it had intestinal worms, what are your thoughts on this?

What percentage of rescue animals have intestinal worms ? In the case of ours it was 100%.

Have you ever been wrong about one of these feelings ?

Was the animal showing any other symptoms ?

I claimed to have a medically diagnosed psychosis. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

There's a rule on this site about not disclosing or asking someone else to disclose personal information. Most people follow this rule and/or are sensitive enough not to pry.

I also claimed to be poorly educated. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

remarkable claims require remarkable evidence

It's not that unusual for poorly educated people to post on web forums.

Basically, you know I dont have evidence, Ive admitted it many times, and if I did I'd be in the MDC right now. So if we both know I dont have the evidence you want, why do you keep asking for it.

..because you keep making unsubstantiated claims.

What do you want ?

Various testing protocols have been suggested. If you want to go away and work on your telepathic powers and take the MDC feel free to do so.

 

[Kuko 4000]

I'd be happy, if people wanted to volunteer, to try a simple test. We'll put someone in the backyard with my stallion, and offer an apple, a piece of bread, a bit of stud mix, and a cookie, and I'll sit in the front yard and see if I can tell what order he ate them in. That could be fun. But Im tremendously bonded to him and I doubt I could replicate it with another animal.

Hi Kleonaptra, don't worry, it's plenty enough if you can do it with your own stallion There's no need to complicate things, choose one item, maybe an apple, all you have to do is correctly sense whether your horse is eating an apple or is not eating an apple (of course without hearing or seeing it). If you get it right x amount of times you have demonstrated an ability so amazing that million dollars (or even hundred million dollars) pale next to it.

I'm sure we can help you with a simple protocol if you're interested. Oh, and earlier you wrote:

Im going to work on the standard Zener card test, using different people and see where it takes me. Im not just going to read the cards from the subject, Im going to try and transmit to the other person as well. There are people I know who will be able to do it but I'd rather recruit some skeptics.

You should definitely choose only the people that you know are able to do it. It doesn't matter if they are skeptics or believers or even aliens, the only thing that matters is that they can do it. You should concentrate on the people who are best at doing it, every test worth something is designed in a way where it doesn't matter what the people participating believe in.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Im simply saying there is a bias to the evidence you want. I have only made one claim - that with time I can improve my accuracy in telepathy.

That is an unsupported paranormal claim. You claim telepathy exists.

The rest is all speculation and I have carefully worded my posts on this thread and others to include the scientifically accepted reasons. One of my very first posts on my own thread stated that only my perception of anything made it supernatural.

Yes, I have noticed your attempt to redefine or blur the definition, but 'telepathy' is a clear and unambiguous term.

On this thread I said my mother in law knew when I went into labour, can you explain that?

Did you go into labour at an unexpected time?
Did she blurt "I can feel your pain!" before you even had time to say "hello" when you picked up the phone?
No and no?
So she called you, expecting it might be your time, and even when you said "hello", she sensed the strain in your voice.

When I call my wife (I travel a lot) I can hear her mood as soon as she answers the phone. You can that with people you know well.

I knew, on picking up my last rescue animal, that it had intestinal worms, what are your thoughts on this?

How many of your rescue animals do NOT have intestinal worms?

I claimed to have a medically diagnosed psychosis. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

It is none of our business. And it was irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

I also claimed to be poorly educated. You did not ask me to provide evidence for this claim.

It is none of our business. And it was irrelevant for the discussion at hand.

Basically, you know I dont have evidence, Ive admitted it many times, and if I did I'd be in the MDC right now. So if we both know I dont have the evidence you want, why do you keep asking for it.

Why do you keep making unsubstantiated claims? This is a sceptical discussion forum, so when you say you will work on improving your telepathic powers, don't expect people to pat you on the back and say "cool".

- Or if we do, you'll know we have stopped taking you seriously altogether.

In here, getting your claims challenged is a sign of respect.

Hans

 

[Kleonaptra]

That claim assumes the existence of telepathy, which is what is being disputed. That is an unevidenced, and therefore unwarranted, assumption.


We know there's currently no empirical evidence of telepathy, despite decades of attempts to obtain some. Whether there ever will be is a different question; a sceptic cannot rule it out, which is why we're always keen to examine any new evidence that is presented. The trouble is that people who think they've got such evidence invariably turn out to have only a few anecdotes which look exactly like the sort of anecdotes that previous investigation and testing has determined are entirely due to well known cognitive biases.


Sounds good. I hope you do get a volunteer, as I'd be very interested in the result. Don't forget you need to out of earshot, as well as sight, of your horse.


You haven't found out if you can do it with this animal yet. It's this kind of comment which makes it sound like you have already reached an unwarranted conclusion, and prompts the sort of response you were complaining about above.

I thought I was allowed to assume telepathy exists, for the purposes of my experiment, so long as I didnt try to convince anyone else it existed without evidence. Im not trying to convince anyone of its existance, Im very sorry if it was interpreted that way. I have never tested myself and joined the forum to find out exactly what would be accepted and what wouldnt.

I completely agree that other people who have had claims cant produce the goods. I want to know why. From going over the challenge applicants Ive seen a bunch of fruads, over eagers and others who just jumped in without any research. Their focus is on the million, mines on proof we all like. Consider this my research.

It sounds like Ive reached a conclusion because I do believe I can talk to him, I often joke that I speak fluent horse. Im again, sorry if I made it sound like I knew - I dont mean to talk in absolutes. It sounds like Ive reached an unwarranted conclusion because I am a 'woo'. I believe in things for which there is no scientific evidence, but it is my personal belief that scientific evidence isnt all there is. I am learning how you want things phrased. Thankyou for helping me with that.

 

[Kleonaptra]

The phrase "....with time I can improve my accuracy in telepathy" contains a clear statement that telepathy exists. All good experimental work to date has shown this not to be the case.

Unless you can provide evidence (and remember that the plural of anecdote is not evidence) then you'll be challenged



There are a number of mundane explanations including that she had a feeling of knowing for a long time and it was only validated when she found out that you had gone into labour.

If she had no idea that you were pregnant and knew, to the second, when you went into labour and documented the time and date then that would be a remarkable coincidence. If she was able to do it repeatedly under controlled circumstances for other women that would be paranormal but "knowing" in this sense is not that unusual.



What percentage of rescue animals have intestinal worms ? In the case of ours it was 100%.

Have you ever been wrong about one of these feelings ?

Was the animal showing any other symptoms ?



There's a rule on this site about not disclosing or asking someone else to disclose personal information. Most people follow this rule and/or are sensitive enough not to pry.



remarkable claims require remarkable evidence

It's not that unusual for poorly educated people to post on web forums.

..because you keep making unsubstantiated claims.

What do you want ?

Various testing protocols have been suggested. If you want to go away and work on your telepathic powers and take the MDC feel free to do so.

That got a LOL outta me. Very true.

I didnt think I was making unsubstantiated claims, I thought I was having a speculative discussion. I am going to work on telepathy, perhaps one day I'll take the MDC. But Ive got a lot of research to do first and a lot of philosophical discussion to have in the meantime.

The specifics of the bird were discussed above - its uncommon for birds that fly to get intestinal worms because of their resistance to them, especially common mynahs. The one I picked up had been winged by a car and was woozy, but instantly I thought, "this poor little buggers got worms" Cant even be telepathy, because the bird wouldnt know that much. He'd know he was hungry no matter how much he ate, but I couldnt know that, I'd just picked him up.