BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

LW said:
I don't know exactly what the "doctrine for humane treatment" is. But I'm pretty certain that sleep deprivation is against the spirit of, even if your guys found a loophole in the text.
You are entitled to an opinion. In the past prisoners were kept up for more than 24 hours at a time. US interrogators don't do this.

Sleep deprivation is not humane treatment.
Opinions are great aren't they. One could argue that imprisonment is not humane. I think an argument could easily be made that it is not. I would not want to lose my freedom. Just because you don't like something has little relevance.

Thanks for the opinion though.

It is the same technique.
Simply stating that it is does not make it so. There are very real differences. In the past interrogators kept their subject awake for more than 24 hours. I have been up for more than 24 hours many times. Many people have.

Do you have any evidence that keeping a subject awake for 18 hours in a 24 hour period is harmful.

Actually, I am surprisingly unemotial about this. I have read very much history and know that no matter what the good intentions are, wars are nasty business and bad stuff happen in them. However, I do get annoyed when someone tries to justify the bad stuff claiming that it is actually good stuff.
Good straw man. When did I say that interrogation is good stuff?

They do violate. See the above quotes from Geneva convention.
Again, simply claiming it is in violation does not prove that you are right. What about the quotes support your claim?

The methods get people to talk and you get both good and bad information that way.
You failed to answer the question.

It depends on the actual implementation if you get more good than bad. I'm not convinced that you are succeeding. (You may be or may not, I don't have enough information to know and thinking of the track record of sleep deprivation and friends I'm not too optimistic about that).
We have captured people based on the information gained by interrogation. We have captured weapons and documentation. It is demonstrably effective.

Now, I understand that you folks want to skip over niceties like humane treatment in an effort get your enemies.
War is not a nicety. Imprisoning soldiers is not a nicety. Shooting people is not a nicety.

If you want to be the Good Guy, you have to behave as one. If you don't, you don't have to expect that others treat you so.
Good is relative and subjective. We put on trial those who committed crimes at Abu Ghraib. We don't cut off heads (as the Taliban did). We don't commit the kinds of torture Saddam did. We will never convince people we are the good guys by engaging in war. The Japanese, Germans and Italians did not see us as the good guys.

In the end we need to exercise diplomacy when it is appropriate and fight wars when we must. We should absolutely follow international law where appropraite. But trying to make every one feel warm and fuzzy through war is unlikely to succeed.
 
What I see displayed in this thread is what I always see when the initial question of the thread is in reality a false dichtomy.

  • x<=min (worth it)
  • x>=max (not worth it)

The number of tragedies it takes to remove a brutal dictatorship is what it is. The real answer is yes, it takes alot of tragic sacrifice. Is it worth it? How could it not be worth it? All humans yearn toward freedom. It makes no difference where they were born or what religion they practice. There is no person anywhere that would choose to be owned by another human...and that is what a dictatorship really is. It's slavery writ large. One master and many many slaves. Slaves who's misery, happiness, lives, or deaths mean nothing to the master.

What I see missing in this thread is moral clarity. Rise above the fray for a moment. Transcend the left/right noise. What do you see? If you are paying attention you see the fact that dissent itself is freedom, and where dissent is missing...so freedom is missing. This argument, this very thread is freedom! This very conversation is one in which the average Iraqi under Saddam must not participate in. No matter his opinion, he was not intitled to it.

That is what makes these many thousands of tragedies "worth it". No one in the "free world" should consider themselves above the fray when any human anywhere is experiencing slavery. Like a famous blues song from the civil rights era states; "None of us is free if one of us is chained" ....the bluesman Solomon Burke re-recorded this song and dedicated it to the vicitms of tyranny worldwide.

It's true...we should work to free the people of the world. So that the liberals and conservatives of North Korea, Syria, Iran, etc...could be free to debate the course their lives and nations should take. That is the black and white issue. Freedom. It's what moral clarity is all about.

How much sacrifice is worth it? The answer is yes... Sacrifice in the service of freedom is not so much a goal as it should be a lifestyle. Unless you can live with the alternative...but somehow I doubt any of the people who have posted to this thread so far would make happy slaves.

-z
 
crimresearch said:
I agree..except for his abysmal mischaracterization of what is 'blues'.:p

:p indeed!

Mr. Burke won the 2002 Grammy for best blues album...and OBTW was recently inducted into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame.

:cool:
-z
 
Oh, this is gonna be a WHOOOOOLE 'nother thread.
:D

See you in History, Literature and the Arts.
:jedi:
 
RandFan said:

Simply stating that it is does not make it so. There are very real differences. In the past interrogators kept their subject awake for more than 24 hours. I have been up for more than 24 hours many times. Many people have.

I have also. I've even been awake for more than 48 hours a row, and I know people who have been longer. Not that I could do anything useful in the end.

Do you have any evidence that keeping a subject awake for 18 hours in a 24 hour period is harmful.

In case you don't remember the text of the article that you posted, let me remind you of the part:
Sleep deprivation is another key technique. Though doctrine for humane treatment specifies a prisoner be given eight hours of sleep, it does not have to be eight consecutive hours.

A captive in such a situation will most likely be placed in a windowless cell to eliminate any sense of day or night. A night-vision camera will be trained on the prisoner in his cell. Captors will wait until the prisoner has fallen into deep sleep, then wake him up. The goal is to create fatigue and a sense of disorientation that may help promote the flow of information.

There's a big difference between having 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep and having 6 hours of sleep in 15 minute batches. The human sleep cycle takes some 90 minutes to complete. If you wake up the prisoner after every 15 minutes, he will never experience deep sleep or REM sleep. Both are necessary for full brain functioning. Also, lack of deep sleep weakens the immne system [One to sleep matters: http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic444.htm, google for more if you are interested].

The American way of sleep deprivation is slightly slower than the complete awakeness but the end result is the same. I don't see a real difference in getting your victim to hallucinate in four days or in a week.

Again, simply claiming it is in violation does not prove that you are right. What about the quotes support your claim?

Didn't you read the parts of Geneva convention that I quoted? You know, things like "Prisoners of war shall have for their use, day and night, conveniences which conform to the rules of hygiene and are maintained in a constant state of cleanliness." Somehow I fail to see how making a prisoner drink large amounts of water and then denying him from going to the lavatory doesn't violate this. Maybe you can find some rationalization for it, I can't.

The full text of the convention.

Now, you can argue that the prisoners are not really prisoners of war since they don't fullfill the conditions of Article 4 of the convention. (As far as I know, many of them might well not fullfill them).

If you want, you can also argue that the prisoners are a nasty bunch of extremists and violating the convention is necessary for catching the rest of their ilk.

But don't try to claim that their treatment is in conformance with the convention.

In case you don't want to spend your time reading the text, I shall quote the most relevant part (from Article 17):
No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

See: "may not be exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

You failed to answer the question.

If this was the preference question, my answer is still "neither". (And if it is not enough, my next answer is: "Mu").

We have captured people based on the information gained by interrogation. We have captured weapons and documentation. It is demonstrably effective

But how many failures you have had?

Good is relative and subjective.

I agree wholeheartedly. But when I listen to your political leaders, I get the impression that they think otherwise and that they want people to think otherwise.

We put on trial those who committed crimes at Abu Ghraib.

You put some of them, perhaps all, perhaps not, I don't know. And to tell the truth, remembering how My Lai trials went, I'm not especially optimist about American military justice. But, times may have changed from then and the system may be better now. (As I don't want to seem like I thought that the American military justice is somehow worse than the norm, I want to point out that the Finnish military justice system left a lot to be desired during the WWII era)..

The Japanese, Germans and Italians did not see us as the good guys.

Perhaps that was because you were not "good". It is a natural trait to see that your side as being good and just and the enemy as the incarnation of all that is evil. I don't think that the Western Allies were as bad as Germans or Soviets, there was a large difference in conduct there, but they did do things that are not consistent with being "good". Less evil, sure, but not good.

I try to apply the same standards for all sides of all military conflicts. I don't know if I have succeeded. It took me several years to finally accept that if I want to condemn the execution of Vilho Louhelainen, I have to also condemn the execution of Viktor Morosov. Otherwise I'm a hypocrite. [You haven't ever hear of either man, Private Louhelainen was captured by a Soviet long-range reconnaisance patrol, interrogated, and finally executed by Comissar Mihail F. Koroljov while Sergeant Morosov was captured, interrogated, and executed by a Finnish long-range reconnaisance patrol led by Lieutenant Ilmari Honkanen. In both case I understand why the captives were killed: the patrols were both deep behind enemy front lines and leaving them alive could have endangered the patrolmen. However, with a perfect 20/20 hindsight we can now confidently say that neither patrol would have been in any greater danger if they had released their prisoners. Though, it is very easy to say things like that while sitting in a comfortable seat in front of a computer. My perspective would probably be different if I was in forest 80 km from nearest friends.]
 
LW said:
There's a big difference between having 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep and having 6 hours of sleep in 15 minute batches. The human sleep cycle takes some 90 minutes to complete. If you wake up the prisoner after every 15 minutes, he will never experience deep sleep or REM sleep. Both are necessary for full brain functioning. Also, lack of deep sleep weakens the immne system.
Agreed. I will concede that I don't know how long detainees are allowed to sleep at any one time. I think 15 minutes of sleep would be as you said and violate the spirit of the law. Do you know the duration of sleep periods? If the detainees were awaken after falling asleep a few times, interrogated and then allowed to sleep for 6 hours then I would not have a problem with it. Perhaps we should find the facts first.

The American way of sleep deprivation is slightly slower than the complete awakeness but the end result is the same. I don't see a real difference in getting your victim to hallucinate in four days or in a week.
Can you prove your claim?

Didn't you read the parts of Geneva convention that I quoted? You know, things like "Prisoners of war shall have for their use, day and night, conveniences which conform to the rules of hygiene and are maintained in a constant state of cleanliness." Somehow I fail to see how making a prisoner drink large amounts of water and then denying him from going to the lavatory doesn't violate this. Maybe you can find some rationalization for it, I can't.
I can see how this could be a problem however do you know that prisoners are relieving themselves causing a state of uncleanliness?

If this was the preference question, my answer is still "neither". (And if it is not enough, my next answer is: "Mu").
My kids play a game called "Mu". They are not here and I have no idea what that means.

But how many failures you have had?
You claim we fail I think that answer is in your corner.

I agree wholeheartedly. But when I listen to your political leaders, I get the impression that they think otherwise and that they want people to think otherwise.
Better, they want the world to think we are better. The Afghans routinely cut the heads of their prisoners. The Iraqi's prefer to video tape their captives and taunt relatives before they videotape the execution and post it on the internet.

Perhaps you don't think we are better.

You put some of them, perhaps all, perhaps not, I don't know.
Perhaps not. We took action and there are people motivated to uncover any corruption. I will concede that it would be a difficult process but not impossible. Nixon was brought down by scandal. The bottom line is that we as a nation have declared this activity wrong and expect more of our leaders even when we don't get it.

Perhaps that was because you were not "good".
Perhaps. However we were not the aggressors (aside from the blockade against the Japanese), We were not carrying out genocide and it was not our intention to control the world.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

BPSCG said:
This question gets asked a lot, and I beat up Kevin_Lowe about it in another thread.

It's an incomplete question. "Worth it" to whom?

It was intentionally incomplete. I was trying to allow for all the possible ways a person might calculate the necessity or desirability of war.

You went on to suggest a few ways, but I don't think you gave your own opinion. Now, when I asked about your own personal sacrifices, you began with what seemed to be a very honest answer, but quickly leapt for a straw man:

Realistically, very little (higher taxes is the biggest I can think of). Why is that relevant? If I didn't personally sacrifice, I get no say? Should the soldier who lost his legs get extra votes on election day?

I would never suggest that you get no say, and in fact began this thread in an effort to draw out your feelings.

I will opine that anyone who claims to support the war (you may not be one of them; can't tell) has a moral duty to do something beyond posting to this board. While everyone in a democracy should get his say, it's also worth noting that the opinions of us armchair generals won't count for much, unless they are particularly eloquent. It's as easy to say one opposes the war as it is to say one opposes it. The opinion of anyone who actually got off his @$$ and did something constructive will always be more impressive. That's why I focus on the number of deaths, injuries and atrocities in weighing the value of war, and on who inflicts them--I don't dare ignore them and try to be taken seriously.

The number of deaths I would call "worth it" for the establishment of American-style capitalism/democracy is pretty near zero. Maybe a few hundred deaths that helped to free millions would appeal to me more than the current, hidden total. After the revelation of some of the horrors of Abu Ghraib (and however many other secret torture chambers we're running), the notion of our defending or promoting democracy becomes a horrid joke.

I can hope that democracy grows out of what we've allowed to be done in our names in Iraq, but I don't think our government has earned much credit for it. We've broken an awful lot of people and things to bring them "freedom," and so far we probably resemble Saddam's regime in the eyes of Iraqis. We're just the latest crop of guys with guns who promise not to kill too many people if they just do what they're told.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

Orsino said:
I would never suggest that you get no say, and in fact began this thread in an effort to draw out your feelings.
Then what was your point in asking what sacrifices I and others had made, if not to suggest that someone who'd paid a terrible price to free Iraq should get more say?
I will opine that anyone who claims to support the war (you may not be one of them; can't tell)
You can't??? Are you serious???
has a moral duty to do something beyond posting to this board.
Well, I'm in my 50's, so enlisting is out. My niece recently ran a project at her school to collect care packages for the troops, and I supported her efforts. I pay a hell of a lot of income taxes to support the war (so does Mrs. BPSCG, though less happily), and I use the power of words to try to persuade others to support it, even to the point that it cost me the long-time friendship of a leftist friend (so much for the myth that those on the left are more tolerant of free speech and diverse opinions).

Beyond that, what would you have me do? Keep in mind, I'm a U.S. government employee, so there are strict limits on my political activities.
It's as easy to say one opposes the war as it is to say one opposes it.
Huh?
The number of deaths I would call "worth it" for the establishment of American-style capitalism/democracy is pretty near zero. Maybe a few hundred deaths that helped to free millions would appeal to me more than the current, hidden total.
So the D-Day invasion was not worth the price, in your mental calculus.
After the revelation of some of the horrors of Abu Ghraib (and however many other secret torture chambers we're running),
How many "other secret torture chambers" are we running?
the notion of our defending or promoting democracy becomes a horrid joke.
It does? Read this article, but as you do so, replace the word "Baghdad" with the name of some Scandanavian capital, and wherever you see a Muslim name, replace it with one that ends in "sen" (e.g., "Torvaldsen") and tell me that it doesn't sound like the typical parliamentary maneuvering you see in any liberal democracy in Europe.
I can hope that democracy grows out of what we've allowed to be done in our names in Iraq, but I don't think our government has earned much credit for it.
Who gets the credit, then? France, for having marched in and broken Saddam's armies and capturing Saddam? Saddam himself, for seeing the error of his ways and peaceably handing over power to his elected successor?
We've broken an awful lot of people and things to bring them "freedom,"
Why the scare quotes?
and so far we probably resemble Saddam's regime in the eyes of Iraqis.
Do you really believe that? Do you really think Iraqis are so pig-ignorant and stupid that they can't see the difference in their lives today as compared with three years ago?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

BPSCG said:
Then what was your point in asking what sacrifices I and others had made, if not to suggest that someone who'd paid a terrible price to free Iraq should get more say?

I'll refer you back to my previous post, in which I explained that. My intent was not to devalue your opinion, but to point out that our vocal advocacy carries more weight when backed by concrete actions. I asked originally because I was curious to know what activism supporters of the war would actually claim--and whether they'd get all touchy about it.

Well, I'm in my 50's, so enlisting is out. My niece recently ran a project at her school to collect care packages for the troops, and I supported her efforts. I pay a hell of a lot of income taxes to support the war....


Do you know how much your tax burden has increased, and how much of that increase actually finances the war?

....and I use the power of words to try to persuade others to support it, even to the point that it cost me the long-time friendship of a leftist friend (so much for the myth that those on the left are more tolerant of free speech and diverse opinions).....

I doubt that anyone within the sound of our voices actually believed that every so-called leftist is more tolerant than anyone of other persuasions.

....Beyond that, what would you have me do? Keep in mind, I'm a U.S. government employee, so there are strict limits on my political activities.

That touches on one thing I had in mind. Quitting one's job to become a more full-time activist is an option. Its validity will depend, of course, upon the depth of one's convictions and one's other obligations.

I'm not exactly pointing fingers here, mind you. I kept my own comfortable job, my active duty (Army) ended in the nineties, I'm in my forties, and I never hit the streets in any sort of public demonstration. I can't blame that last entirely on my fears of getting on some "list."

If you are in any way at fault for not signing up as a mercenary, I am also guilty of not demonstrating more visibly against the war I detest.

So the D-Day invasion was not worth the price, in your mental calculus.

Straw man. Persuade me that Saddam had overrun most of the Middle East, was allied with a military power that threatened the US directly, and ran death camps that killed millions, and I'll talk about comparing the situations.

I do have problems with Dresdens and Hiroshimas, but defeating an aggressor can be a worthy aim.

How many "other secret torture chambers" are we running?

I would really, really like to know. Is there a way to force more transparency upon this Administration? It would be nice to see them finally disavow torture, and have them affirm the sanctity of due process for all. I despise the current trend of exceptions to human rights without trial.

It does? Read this article....

Who is the author, and what is the title? I refuse to register with large commercial entities just to read news--but I'm enough of a junkie that I might find it on one of the sites I've joined.

Who gets the credit, then? France, for having marched in and broken Saddam's armies and capturing Saddam? Saddam himself, for seeing the error of his ways and peaceably handing over power to his elected successor?

You misunderstand me. When our crimes in this war can be considered to outweigh so much of whatever good we have or may yet accomplish, the "credit" might be more of a debit--as I believe.

We would earn a lot of credit if the Iraqis affirm a constitution that guarantees civil rights to women, people of all faiths and orientations, etc.--less so, if the fundamentalists gunk it up with too much religious (or other) oppression. It would be dangerous to fail to take into account the undying enmity we've created and amplified in the Islamic world by killing, maiming and paupering so many, while supporting authoritarian rule there and elsewhere.

The French may well be relieved to have been responsible for so little of the result.

Do you really believe that? Do you really think Iraqis are so pig-ignorant and stupid that they can't see the difference in their lives today as compared with three years ago?

Stopped beating my wife, you mean?

I think they can see the difference. They remain an occupied people, with more armed men on their street corners than during the worst of Saddam's rule, and basic services such as water, sewer and power not yet up to pre-war levels.

We've wrought terrible devastation there. In the arithmetic of death, we might yet generate enough good will that even I might offer grudging approval, but so far the war most strongly resembles a bloody hole in the ground where thousands of lives and billions of dollars have simply vanished--along with the last shreds of America's good image.
 
orsino:
"It would be dangerous to fail to take into account the undying enmity we've created and amplified in the Islamic world by killing, maiming and paupering so many, while supporting authoritarian rule there and elsewhere."


About the whole US "spreading democracy" in the Middle East thing...though I don't believe for one minute that this is true, and the continued US support to many brutal dictatorships (Egypt, Saudi, and non Mid-East places like Uzbekistan) shows this, I do think that we maybe will see some changes in US policy which will fool some into thinking that they support democracy.
Increasingly in the Middle East we're seeing protests against the very dictatorships the US supports (e.g. see this story on anti-Mubarak demonstrations in Egypt at http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2004/12/2038.shtml ), and I get the feeling the days of many of these regimes are numbered, and will begin to buckle under popular pressure in the not too far future.
Is it possible that America realises this, and is worried that the region will be taken over by popular movements who would put a stop to American plunder of the region's resources? Thus, will they attempt to hijack these popular movements? I get the feeling this may already be happening in Iran. I've also heard people suggest that one reason they went into Iraq is that they realised Saddam's days were numbered, and wanted to get in there before a genuinely popular, internal revolt took place.

Personally, I think the invasion of Iraq was "over-engineered" - i.e. it had a multitude of causes - oil, domination over the region, preservation of the dollar, the eroding of sanctions, the awful possibility that the weapons inspectors might give Iraq a clean bill of health bringing the nightmare prospect of US and British firms being shut out of all those lucrative contracts Saddam would be signing with anybody but the yanks and Brits if the Security Council lifted sanctions, Israel's amen corner - take your pick.

Iraq has served as a sort of giant petri dish since Saddam stepped over the border into Kuwait. There's been the DU experiment, the sanctions experiment, and the regime change experiment. The latter one went a bit wrong - what the US wanted to do was install a government of exiles and they'd probably have done just that if there had not been internal disagreements within the US administration about Ahmed Chalabi. I think it was Richard Perle who said the big mistake was not turning over the keys of Iraq to Chalabi and the INC immediately. I'm sure there are Iranian and Syrian (and Egyptian and Lebanese) Chalabis waiting in the wings.

The US does want democracy in the middle east but it's of a very specific kind. One of form and not substance where most people's participation is restricted to voting every few years for one or more parties all with the same agenda - rather like the UK and US. Meanwhile, the US-backed elites consisting largely of exiles with a few co-opted nationals get on with the real business of running things.

Chomsky and Herman's "The Political Econonmy of Human Rights" and what they write about the Vietnamese willing to work with the US still rings true:

"In Vietnam the legendary corruption of "our" Vietnamese....always presented to US imperial offialdom a puzzling contrast to the apparent honesty...of the Vietnamese enemy. The explanation was always simple - the Vietnamese willing to serve the United States were "denationalised", that is, they had lost touch with their own culture, and were essentially rootless mercenaries. The Vietnamese elite had a deep contempt for their own people and were quite prepared to co-operate with a "superior" culture and power in destroying their own society. The world-view of this elite was formed out of its own institutional interests, increasingly tied to the largesse of the external power...."

Has anyone read William Robinson's "Promoting Polyarchy", which deals precisley with these issues?
The US began to worry about giving unconditional support to dictatorial regimes in the 1980's. The first reason for this was that they were worried the weakness of many of the regimes that they had supported and, just as you say, were scared that regimes that replaced them would be geniunely democratic and hostile to US (corporate)interests. For example, the popular movement that replaced the regime of Samoza in Nicaragua was broad based, uniting workers, professionals and peasants and committed to socialist policies. US policy makers realised that they should not have provided last ditch support to Samoza, but should have attempted to influence the opposition and divide the elite leadership of the movement from it's popular base. Faced with a similar challenge to another corrupt client regime in the Phillipines, the US did just that. US planners were able to control the transition to democracy and ensured that the regime that replaced Marcos did not challenge the fundementals of the "free market" system. This task was made easier (and more urgent) by the emergence of a business class with links to international capital and which opposed the old regime, whose corrupt clientist nature was no longer in tune with the needs of globalised capital. Robinson calls this system of power "polyarchy".

Similar processes have ocurred, with varying degrees of success around the world since then. Sometimes, the US found it impossible to establish a suitably organised neo-liberal elite to take the reigns of power - where that happened (eg Haiti) the US went back to the old way of doing things - pure state terror. In other parts of the world, such as the middle east, the US hasn't even tried to organise the transfer to polyarchy. There may be various reasons for this. Firstly, the oil wealth of countries such as Saudi Arabia has removed the need for normal economic development and as such no business class has come into being to challenge the royal families. Secondly, states such as Iraq and Syria are innately difficult to govern (as the imperial powers who created them intended) and not conducive to polyarchic government. Thirdly, US determination to maintain control over oil supplies over and above other economic considerations has led to a presumption in favour of dictatorship rather than polyarchy, as has the general level of conflict in the region.

Is this changing? To some extent yes. Countries like Lebanon and Egypt have seen challenges to their existing governments and they may have a neo-liberal business class capable to taking power. In Lebanon, there seems to be a neo-liberal group opposed to Syrian power in the country, so it is not at all suprising that it should attract US support.

The situation is very different in Iran, which is isolated from globalised capital. There is no indigenous elite group which might exercise power in a manner beneficial to US interests. The US obviously wants to bring down the regime but I doubt it has any real idea who would excercise power in a "democratic" Iran. To see these problems in action we need only look west to Iraq.

The US's problems in Iraq are caused mainly by the fact that, isolated from globalised capital, no business class could develop under Saddam. Instead, Iraq's business class was in exile. The US has attempted to graft this exiled business class back onto the Iraiq body politic with no success so far. Consequently, power can only be excercised direct from the barrel of a gun.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

Orsino said:
Do you know how much your tax burden has increased, and how much of that increase actually finances the war?
This came up in Silicon's rant - er, sorry, thread - about the financial cost of the war. He threw out the number $200 billion, which would work out to, very roughly, $1,000 per person. If the result of that is a turn the middle east into a region of democracies over the next ten years (not certain, but something even the pessemists would have to acknowledge is a real possibility), then it's a bargain.
I doubt that anyone within the sound of our voices actually believed that every so-called leftist is more tolerant than anyone of other persuasions.
Perhaps not. But when I hear people claim that we're living in a climate of fear, where dissent is muzzled and people who don't support the administration are ostracized, I ask myself who I know that's been ostracized for his political beliefs. The answer is, only me, and by a leftist.
That touches on one thing I had in mind. Quitting one's job to become a more full-time activist is an option.
No it's not. I have a mortgage and I'm not rich.
Straw man. Persuade me that Saddam had overrun most of the Middle East, was allied with a military power that threatened the US directly, and ran death camps that killed millions, and I'll talk about comparing the situations.
I'll see your straw-man and raise you a "moving the goal posts." You stated
The number of deaths I would call "worth it" for the establishment of American-style capitalism/democracy is pretty near zero. Maybe a few hundred deaths that helped to free millions would appeal to me more than the current, hidden total.
So now you're saying it has to be freeing millions who were being enslaved by someone who was a direct threat to the U.S. Simply "freeing millions" isn't enough. And you are of the school that a threat has to be direct before we deal with it. "Yeah, we do have termites, honey, but they're only in the cellar; they're not in the wood yet..."

Totalitarianism is a threat to democracy. Perhaps not as direct as Japan in 1941, but no less dangerous. The time to deal with a threat is a time of our choosing, not theirs.
How many "other secret torture chambers" are we running?
I would really, really like to know.
Okay, this is the paranoid style of American politics. Ask questions that assume the accusation has been established as true, when you in fact have nothing to support it. Just like the JFK assassination conspiracy accusations and the-government-is-hiding-UFOs accusations : When challenged that there's little or no evidence to support their conspiracy theories, they respond with, "You see how clever those conspirators are?"

Who is the author, and what is the title? I refuse to register with large commercial entities just to read news--but I'm enough of a junkie that I might find it on one of the sites I've joined.
(Cripes, another oh-so-righteous... never mind. If you don't like registering for sites, go to www.bugmenot.com)

Anyway:
Allawi Affirms Bid For Top Post in Iraq
Kurdish Politician Sets Demands of Pivotal Group

By Caryle Murphy
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 24, 2005; Page A14

BAGHDAD, Feb. 23 -- Ayad Allawi, Iraq's interim prime minister, announced Wednesday that he would seek to lead the country's next government, and a Kurdish politician said Kurds would demand "commitments" about civil liberties, federalism and the role of religion in government before supporting any candidate for the post.

Both declarations followed the nomination of Ibrahim Jafari Tuesday by the United Iraqi Alliance, the Shiite coalition that will hold a majority in Iraq's new parliament. The comments indicated that the selection of Jafari, a Shiite rooted in political Islam, did not mark the end of the hotly contested and intricately negotiated political maneuvering that has followed Iraq's Jan. 30 elections.

Under the country's interim constitution, the newly elected 275-seat National Assembly will choose a president and two deputy presidents who will name a prime minister. But the occupants of those posts -- as well as their deputies and other cabinet members -- likely will be chosen beforehand in backroom dealings among the major political parties.

"I can imagine they will be exhaustive and exhausting negotiations," the Kurdish politician, interim Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih, said of talks set to begin as early as Thursday between Kurdish parties and the Shiite coalition over Jafari's candidacy. "We will be drinking gallons of tea in smoke-filled rooms."

A spokesman for Allawi, a secular Shiite, had said Monday that he would be a candidate for prime minister, the position he has held for eight months in the outgoing interim government. On Wednesday, Allawi made it official, announcing the formation of a coalition to back his bid for the job. He declined to specify his partners in the group, saying only that his party would work with smaller ones.

Asked if he was concerned about the religious orientation of Jafari, who is one of the interim government's two vice presidents, Allawi replied that Jafari was "an honorable man . . . and a good brother." But, Allawi said, "we are liberal powers, and we believe in liberal Iraq and not Iraq governed by political Islamists."

Allawi's candidacy raised speculation that his party, which won 40 seats in the assembly, and the Kurdish parties, which won 75, would join forces to block Jafari. To succeed, they would have to gain the support of some secular parties that are part of the United Iraqi Alliance, which won 140 seats. To become prime minister, a nominee needs the approval of two-thirds of the assembly.

In an interview in his government office inside Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone, Salih said that although the Kurds had "no intention of fragmenting any group . . . you could see shifting alliances in this parliament. . . . I believe everything is possible."

Kurds, who make up about 23 percent of Iraq's population and have enjoyed a high degree of autonomy in northern Iraq for more than a decade, want "clear policy commitments" on several issues from any prime ministerial candidate, not just Jafari, Salih said. Those issues include "a democratic, federal Iraq based on the separation of powers and a proper place for religion in public life," he added.
Off-topic question: With all these different groups negotiating for political power, why are the "insurgents" blowing up Iraqis instead of putting down their weapons and trying to have a voice in the government of their country?
You misunderstand me. When our crimes in this war can be considered to outweigh so much of whatever good we have or may yet accomplish, the "credit" might be more of a debit--as I believe.
Maybe what the Iraqis themselves believe is more important than what you or I believe. If you think that "our crimes in this war can be considered to outweigh so much of whatever good we have or may yet accomplish," why don't you check with some Iraqis to see if they agree?

I suggest you start with the eight million of them who went to vote last month.
I think they can see the difference. They remain an occupied people, with more armed men on their street corners than during the worst of Saddam's rule, and basic services such as water, sewer and power not yet up to pre-war levels.
Germany, 1946: They remain an occupied people, with more armed men on their street corners than during the worst of Hitler's rule, and basic services such as water, sewer and power not yet up to pre-war levels.

Japan, 1946: They remain an occupied people, with more armed men on their street corners than during the worst of Tojo's rule, and basic services such as water, sewer and power not yet up to pre-war levels.
We've wrought terrible devastation there. In the arithmetic of death, we might yet generate enough good will that even I might offer grudging approval, but so far the war most strongly resembles a bloody hole in the ground where thousands of lives and billions of dollars have simply vanished--
Germany, 1946. Japan, 1946.
along with the last shreds of America's good image.
Again, I think you need to ask eight million Iraqis. They are the world's leading authorities on what Iraqis think of America - far more than you or I.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

Orsino said:

I will opine that anyone who claims to support the war (you may not be one of them; can't tell) has a moral duty to do something beyond posting to this board.

True, but even moral support expressed on a internet forum is welcome. It balances out the negative. Personally speaking, I'm 45 years old and there is not much I can physically do besides expressing my opinion in favor of the WOT policy and it's stated goals.

Oh, and BTW, I am an Army veteran (1978-82)...although I believe my Army experience to be a bit of a non-sequitur. It is certainly possible to support the goals of the WOT in general and OIF in particular without having served. Personal experience has nothing at all to do with whether a person supports, or does not support the WOT. There are some ex-military people (Mr. Kerry for one) who do not support the current policy. AFAIK there is no concerted effort to invalidate their opinions.

While everyone in a democracy should get his say, it's also worth noting that the opinions of us armchair generals won't count for much, unless they are particularly eloquent. It's as easy to say one opposes the war as it is to say one opposes it. The opinion of anyone who actually got off his @$$ and did something constructive will always be more impressive. That's why I focus on the number of deaths, injuries and atrocities in weighing the value of war, and on who inflicts them--I don't dare ignore them and try to be taken seriously.

Of course not. No one here is ignoring the horrors of war. War is horror...there has never been a non-horrible war. But no matter how horrible war is, it is still preferable to living under a dictatorship. Now you may disagree with this opinion of mine, but somehow I doubt you would personally subject your family or yourself willfully to such oppression.

The number of deaths I would call "worth it" for the establishment of American-style capitalism/democracy is pretty near zero. Maybe a few hundred deaths that helped to free millions would appeal to me more than the current, hidden total.

But no one that I know of is expecting to establish "American-style" democracy. The essence of democracy is freedom.
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

  • Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
  • A political or social unit that has such a government.
  • The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
  • Majority rule.
  • The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

As you can see, these definitions can fit any culture. I don't expect an "American-style" anything in Iraq. I do expect to see an Iraqi-style democratic government. A government who's leadership is inexorably tied to the well-being of it's people. Therefore a democracy, even one which does not particulary like the US, can be worked with and trusted. The lesson America seems finally to have begun to learn is that even an anti-American democracy is preferable to a pro-American dictatorship.


After the revelation of some of the horrors of Abu Ghraib (and however many other secret torture chambers we're running), the notion of our defending or promoting democracy becomes a horrid joke.

Abu Ghraib was a crime, and it is being treated as a crime. A non-democratic nation would be quite free to run as many Abu Ghraibs as they like. Here's what you need to ask yourself;
"Is a dictatorship which regularly violates human rights morally equal to a democracy which sometimes violates human rights?"
If you don't ask yourself that question you'll never come up with the obvious answer...without that answer you'll be apt to make statements like the one above. Your statement shows a lack of moral clarity. Moral clarity is necessary to a logically consistent position on such issues as the WOT. Now moral clarity is not a rubber stamp that approves of the policies of GWB. Moral clarity dictates that GWB pressure Putin to stop his authoritarian trends. It dictates that America must press for democratic reformation in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, not just Syria and Iran.

I can hope that democracy grows out of what we've allowed to be done in our names in Iraq, but I don't think our government has earned much credit for it. We've broken an awful lot of people and things to bring them "freedom," and so far we probably resemble Saddam's regime in the eyes of Iraqis. We're just the latest crop of guys with guns who promise not to kill too many people if they just do what they're told.
Not true at all. When a people are being told to establish a working democratic government they are basically being told that they are free to take back their country. If I were an Iraqi, I would need no gun to my head to make me accept freedom. Would you? Could you really imagine such a thing? It's a silly premise.

-z
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

rikzilla said:
Your statement shows a lack of moral clarity. Moral clarity is necessary to a logically consistent position on such issues as the WOT.
Rik - thanks for the reminder. I'm going out to amazon and getting Sharansky's book right now.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BPSCG's Thread: Death Arithmetic in Iraq

BPSCG said:
Rik - thanks for the reminder. I'm going out to amazon and getting Sharansky's book right now.

:D

You won't be disappointed. I'm certainly not sure he's 100% right, but if he's even 50% right his ideas deserve a fair shot. If he's wrong? .... Well if he's wrong, we're all screwed! If he's wrong WWIV is inevitable.

-z
 
rikzilla said:
The number of tragedies it takes to remove a brutal dictatorship is what it is. The real answer is yes, it takes alot of tragic sacrifice. Is it worth it? How could it not be worth it? All humans yearn toward freedom. It makes no difference where they were born or what religion they practice. There is no person anywhere that would choose to be owned by another human...and that is what a dictatorship really is. It's slavery writ large. One master and many many slaves. Slaves who's misery, happiness, lives, or deaths mean nothing to the master.

What I see missing in this thread is moral clarity. Rise above the fray for a moment. Transcend the left/right noise. What do you see? If you are paying attention you see the fact that dissent itself is freedom, and where dissent is missing...so freedom is missing. This argument, this very thread is freedom! This very conversation is one in which the average Iraqi under Saddam must not participate in. No matter his opinion, he was not intitled to it.

That's not moral clarity, Rik. That's moral fundamentalism.

Everyone likes freedom, but that doesn't make it "moral clarity" for you to kill Bob to free Charles, especially of Bob was a totally innocent party.

Just because freedom is a necessity for this conversation to take place does not make it "morally clear" that the deaths of any number of innocent people are justified so that conversations like this can take place.

Calling this kind of simplistic, absolutist cheerleading "moral clarity" is Newspeak.

In fac, anyone who says that the moral course is clear when dealing with totalitarian states like Iraq is selling something. Or stupid.
 
Zilla:
"You won't be disappointed. I'm certainly not sure he's 100% right, but if he's even 50% right his ideas deserve a fair shot. If he's wrong? .... Well if he's wrong, we're all screwed! If he's wrong WWIV is inevitable."

I`ve been amused for some time about your waffling about this book. I had the misfortune to be stuck on a train with it three weeks ago...thought I`d better do the honours since you have so lionized it.

I cant put it any better than Anatol Lieven (you would find him a much more rewarding writer):

Quote:
The acknowledged influence of Israeli hardliner Natan Sharansky on Bush’s “strategy” of democratisation should make it clear to everyone that, however noble its ideological and historical roots, American messianism – today, as in the Vietnam era – can take forms which are not only misguided but actively malignant. The contrast between Sharansky’s own professed desire for Palestinian democracy and his utter contempt for the lives, property, wellbeing and indeed democratically-expressed views of the Palestinian people is evident: it was expressed most recently in his decision in 2004, as minister for Jerusalem, to allow Israeli authorities to confiscate Palestinian land by administrative decree.

Bush’s reliance on Sharansky (whose book The Case for Democracy was one of the intellectual props of his inaugural speech), and the deep unwillingness even of the American liberal media to criticise the former Soviet dissident, demonstrate one facet of the Orwellian nature of the present US approach to democratisation and the war on terror. Not only is its language of democratisation accompanied by de facto support for a range of savagely authoritarian regimes, and its talk of the rule of law accompanied by Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay; but key aspects of US strategy are based on an absolute and open contempt for the opinions of the great majority of ordinary Arabs and Muslims – in other words, the very people to whom the US administration professes to want to bring democracy!

This glaring contradiction is the product of an inevitable clash between American idealism and American Realpolitik. However, its roots also lie in a central feature of the messianic tradition in American civic nationalism. As reflected in the attitudes and behaviour of the Bush administration, the widespread American belief in America not as a democracy among others but as the very summit and model of democracy encourages contempt for the opinions of the rest of humanity – even when expressed by majorities in fellow democracies. The creation of a notion of “democracy” as a pure absolute discourages real study of all the conditions which are in fact needed for democracy to flourish.

This in turn encourages a belief that, in the words of the US general in Vietnam in Stanley Kubrick’s film Full Metal Jacket, “inside every gook there is an American waiting to get out”; in other words, that if you can get rid of a few Communist, Ba’athist or Iranian “bad guys”, populations naturally will both adopt American-style democracy and capitalism and side with America geopolitically. And finally, the immense power in the American national discourse of words like “democracy” and “freedom” can lead to them being used in a way described acutely by WH Auden during the cold war:

“More deadly than the Idle Word is the use of words as Black Magic…For millions of people today, words like Communism, Capitalism, Imperialism, Peace, Freedom and Democracy have ceased to be words the meaning of which can be inquired into and discussed, and have become right or wrong noises to which the response is as involuntary as a knee reflex.”

Link: http://www.opendemocracy.com/debates/article-3-77-2348.jsp

Don`t tell me Rick, you keep it on your bookshelf next to your copy of "My Pet Goat"? That`s great reading too apparently, right from the first word too...just look how it kept Bush hypnotized when those dastardly islamofascists where attacking your country! :eek:
Maybe Sharansky was the ghost writer?
 
demon said:
I`ve been amused for some time about your waffling about this book. I had the misfortune to be stuck on a train with it three weeks ago...

I'd be willing to bet money you didn't really read this book, but only took the trouble to find a negative review by a writer you like.
 
Mycroft;
"I'd be willing to bet money you didn't really read this book, but only took the trouble to find a negative review by a writer you like."

Your claim. Prove it.

edited to add: I take it you haven`t read it? If not, why not? It`s right up your street.
 

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