Botched Execution, Again

[Gallstones]

No doubt you genuinely believe that you could put a gun to someone's head, pull the trigger, see the gory mess as the bullet goes through the head and not find it traumatic. Who knows, you could even be in the tiny proportion of people who could actually do it, but it's far more likely that you'd suffer post-traumatic stress from the episode.

Sounds like a good job for a sociopath. Get them gainfully employed in a profession in which they are uniquely suited.

 

[Wolrab]

PERRY -- A jury has recommended the death penalty for


Clayton D. Lockett, convicted last week in the June 1999
murder of an 18-year-old woman whose body was found in a
county road ditch near Tonkawa.
Lockett, 25, was one of three men arrested June 7, 1999,
in the death of Stephanie Michelle Neiman. Cases are
pending against co-defendants Alfonzo LaRon Veasey Lockett,
19, of Ponca City and Shawn C. Mathis, 27, of Enid.
The jury also recommended that Lockett serve 2,285 years
in prison on 18 counts of kidnapping, rape, sodomy and
robbery of three other victims, one an 18-year-old
girlfriend of Neiman's.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/...cle_79a1985c-7167-5bce-aba1-09683afa960f.html

I am sorry his death wasn't more painful and drawn out. If only they could have resuscitated him and did it again and again for each victim.

 

[Gallstones]

If you want to kill someone, there are better, if bloodier, ways. Why don't they just squash them with a 20 ton piledriver ?

Sheesh, those lethal injections seem really unreliable.

And that's not getting into the actual justification of capital "punishment".



Of course they don't. Their idea of justice is based on a feeling of revenge and "getting back" at the offender, rather than making society safer and individuals happier.

What measures can society take to be safer than it is?
What measures can society take to make enough individuals happier, and happier enough that violent crime no longer happens?

Is revenge/punishment bad?

 

[Nessie]

This is what seems so bizarre to me

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27225994

"The governor of the US state of Oklahoma has ordered a "full review" of the state's execution procedures following a botched execution.

Clayton Lockett's execution was stopped after 20 minutes on Tuesday evening

Officials say one of his veins ruptured, preventing the drugs from taking full effect. He died of a heart attack less than an hour later."

So the prison officials stopped administering further drugs and left him for up to an hour before he finally died of a heart attack. Is that what happened?

If so I had not realised the issue of no medical personnel being present. If they were there is an interesting potential dilemma. Do they speed up death or try and save the prisoner?

 

[Gallstones]

You should be concerned that the State is distorting the market by creating a monopoly, eliminating competition, and stifling innovation.

The State asserts that only it has the right to kidnap and execute people, then it targets private citizens who commit the 'crime' of competing against it. Furthermore, the State continues to use antiquated and unreliable methods of execution, while refusing to allow innovations such as Mr. Lockett's technique of shooting the victim and then burying her alive.

This is a joke, right? You're kidding, being facetious, yes?

 

[ZirconBlue]

This would end the person's life - with absolutely no possibility of recollection of what happened. . . .

Is this a common problem? Dead people remembering their executions?

 

[Belz...]

What measures can society take to be safer than it is?

I'm not sure, but in theory I prefer rehabilitation than hardening criminals by putting them together in a box with nothing to do.

What measures can society take to make enough individuals happier, and happier enough that violent crime no longer happens?

Democracy and prosperity seem to work.

Is revenge/punishment bad?

Yes.

 

[Gallstones]

"Criminal" isn't a different species from "people", you know. I think you can judge a society by how it treats its outliers, good or bad.



Because justice isn't about revenge.

Except for some civil suits, you can't get justice.
So what's left?
And why can't punishment be civilized?

 

[CORed]

Or better yet... Carbon monoxide poisoning... you here people dying of that all the time before they know it.

Gas chambers, which used hydrogen cyanide, not carbon monoxide, used to be used in many states.

 

[Gallstones]

Yes. While the SC has determined that the death penalty in and of itself isn't a violation of the Constitution, the suffering during its implementation (to which a_unique_person was referring when replying to my post) is indeed a violation.

ETA: FWIW, I agree that capital punishment is addressed (and approved, given due process) in the Constitution. That doesn't make it right.

I wasn't addressing the suffering aspect, only the constitutionality aspect.

A_ unique_person? Aren't we all unique persons?

 

[Babbylonian]

I wasn't addressing the suffering aspect, only the constitutionality aspect.

In other words, you were addressing something that was at best tangentially related to the post you quoted.

A_ unique_person? Aren't we all unique persons?

Hilarious.

 

[Gallstones]

I'm not sure, but in theory I prefer rehabilitation than hardening criminals by putting them together in a box with nothing to do.

Some people can't ever be rehabilitated, they are irreparably defective and a persistent danger to everyone. Better to keep them alive in a box with little to do (it's not like they can do what they like to do best) or execute them? The former can be "cruel" too.

Democracy and prosperity seem to work.

Where is democracy working to keep people safer?
Democracy is not law, it is mob rule. You think that is the solution?

Yes.

Why is punishment wrong? Mightn't there be a place in your rehabilitation for punishment? What if it is effective in changing behavior and making those who were once predators socially amenable to being happy and democratic?
Since we are talking about boxes, how about keeping them in some kind of Skinner box where they can be rewarded and punished like a rat. Rats learn, maybe that is the only method that can retrain a predatory sociopath?

I happen to think the assumption that every human is salvageable and every human has "value" to be akin to believing in ghosts, astrology, and reincarnation.

 

[ravdin]

Bring back the guillotine. It's as quickest and most painless invention for killing a human being that has been devised.

If we're too squeamish as a society to behead prisoners, then perhaps we need to call into question whether we want to continue with state sponsored executions.

 

[Gallstones]

In other words, you were addressing something that was at best tangentially related to the post you quoted.

Hilarious.

I was doing what I damn well pleased and did it better and with a link to a credible source rather than expect my opinion be good enough.

 

[Babbylonian]

I was doing what I damn well pleased and did it better and with a link to a credible source rather than expect my opinion be good enough.

You got me there. There certainly aren't any rules here requiring posts to address arguments actually presented as opposed to the ones you want to address.

 

[Belz...]

Except for some civil suits, you can't get justice.

What is it with people who state their opinion as though it were fact ?

What's your definition of justice, then ?

And why can't punishment be civilized?

Who said it couldn't be ?

 

[Belz...]

Some people can't ever be rehabilitated, they are irreparably defective and a persistent danger to everyone.

They are few and far apart. Most of them can be left in prison or in mental institutions. I'd entertain death only in the most extreme of cases (Ted Bundy, Hitler, etc.)

Better to keep them alive in a box with little to do (it's not like they can do what they like to do best) or execute them? The former can be "cruel" too.

Key word: can. It depends what you do with them.

Where is democracy working to keep people safer?

I don't understand the scope of your question.

Democracy is not law, it is mob rule. You think that is the solution?

Please. Democracy is not mob rule. Whatever gave you this idea ? Do you even know how modern democracies work, the checks and balances in place, the constitutional considerations of laws, the representation and non-proportionality of some voting systems, etc. ? Would you prefer monarchy or oligarchy ?

Why is punishment wrong?

Please don't change your question as you move along. You combined "revenge" and "punishment" in your original post, and now you're trying to pass it off as if you had just said "punishment". I answered your first question, not the one you're trying to sneak in there.

Mightn't there be a place in your rehabilitation for punishment?

The two seem incompatible to me. Punishment is behavioural modification via negative reinforcement, something you do to young children, animals or criminals with no sense of social duty i.e. beigns who cannot understand morals. Rehabilitation is giving someone the tools to operate positively in a society. How do you go from the former to the latter ? The connection you are trying to establish is the positive claim, here, so the burden of proof is on you, no matter how you word your question above.

Since we are talking about boxes, how about keeping them in some kind of Skinner box where they can be rewarded and punished like a rat. Rats learn, maybe that is the only method that can retrain a predatory sociopath?

If I considered that in any way, I'd entertain the possibility that I was the sociopath.

I happen to think the assumption that every human is salvageable and every human has "value" to be akin to believing in ghosts, astrology, and reincarnation.

1) No one has voiced this assumption in any way. It is entirely a construct of your imagination.
2) Your incredulity and similes are not evidence, nor are they rhetorically convincing.

 

[applecorped]

Is he still dead?

Good.

 

[Dr. Imago]

So, why wouldn't you, at stage 3, administer a fatal overdose of a barbiturate as per veterinary euthanasia.

We are unable to get the best available IV barbiturate, manufactured in Italy, for the very reason that it is used for lethal injection in the U.S. That drug is called thiopental (a.k.a. sodium pentothal). It's an interesting story by itself in that Hospira tried to secure it, because it has many other legitimate uses (including decreasing intracranial pressure in head trauma), but the Italian government wanted assurances that it wouldn't be diverted for lethal injection. Hospira couldn't assure this, and balked.

Nonetheless, etomidate and propofol essentially work the same way. You can't assure a "lethal" dose of these meds by themselves, and that goes as well for thiopental. Pancuronium bromide (also not currently available in the U.S. for other reasons) has too long of an onset of action. Rocuronium bromide is much faster acting, especially at the doses described.

The protocol makes sense: ensure amnesia first, then give them a whopping dose of an anesthetic induction agent (which will further reassure the executioner that they are completely amnestic), then give them a muscle paralytic which will stop their breathing, and finally administer a cardioplegic - which will stop the heart. You have the second IV for the very reason in case the first one "blows" in the middle of the procedure.

The "failed" protocols contain no back-up and/or redundancy plan. This kind of planning (i.e., already having something in place for any unforeseen contingency) is exactly the kind of thing I do everyday. It is a real shame that we can't formally be involved in this process, as it would be both more effective and humane... not that I would personally be involved in them regardless. This is purely an academic exercise for me.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Beeyon]

There's an inherent conflict in the two requirements for a humane execution:

1. The victim cannot suffer, and

2. The execution has to LOOK gentle and kind to outside observers.

There are plenty of ways to instantly obliterate someone's consciousness, thus making the death quick and painless, but when you add the complication of making it look humane it becomes much more problematic.

Absolutely not. There is a simple, cheap,humane, and reliable method of killing a person: nitrogen asphyxiation. It's such a mild and unpleasant death, that it happens in industrial accidents with the victim completely unaware of what is going on. I'm somewhat undecided when it comes to capital punishment... but as long as the methods are vindictive, I will vote against those who push it.