• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Botched Execution, Again

I am an anesthesiologist. This is right up my alley, so to speak. However, I am prohibited by the charter in my board certification from being involved in capital punishment. Them's the rules. If I do it, I lose my certification.

Having said that, yes, I think the drugs used and the protocols written are, at the very least, inadequate and, at the worst, barbaric. In order to do this properly, we could very easily be involved in protocols that would be at the same time humane and would also do the job quickly and painlessly.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs on the death penalty. That is for society to decide. Going back to a sociology class I took as an undergrad, the key principles in an effective system of punishment, with regards to its effects on deterrence, it must meet three principles: celerity, severity, and certainty. With botched executions, you remove two of those secondary to the fallout in the court of public opinion.

Having said that, there is nothing that prevents me from saying how I would do it if I were allowed to be involved. This is how you accomplish the goals:

(1) You start two IVs and make sure that both are free-flowing prior to commencement of the procedure.
(2) You give a large dose of an amnestic agent, like midazolam, on the order of 2mg/kg.
(3) Next, you push through the primary IV a massive dose of an induction agent, like propofol or etomidate, to ensure that you've rendered the person completely unconscious.
(4) After this, you give a massive dose of a muscle paralytic, like rocuronium, at 10 times the normal dose to commence surgery.
(5) Lastly, you rapidly push 400 meq of potassium chloride in the IV.

Total cost? Around $100. This would end the person's life - with absolutely no possibility of recollection of what happened - in less than 2 minutes with plenty of redundancy should one of those steps fail. And, it would be humane. The protocols I've seen are woefully inadequate, and I'm not sure why no one "in the know" has suggested fixing them, other than for the reasons I describe.

~Dr. Imago
 
Well it's fortunate that in this case the term barbaric was chosen carefully by this not-pretentious non-git to express his revulsion at the death penalty.

Oh come on, is Japan "barbaric" because it executes murderers after due process of law (which is within the state's monopoly on legitimate use of force)? And why do the likes of Mark Bridger and Ian Watkins deserve to live if they blatantly disregarded and shattered the lives of others? Besides, implying that the US is like the worst traits of the Aztec Empire and Khmer Rouge Cambodia because it has the temerity to *shock, horror* put wastes of life out of society's misery does come across as pretentious.
 
If people can go hunting and be willing to kill deer if they watched Bambi in their childhood, they would most certainly be able to kill criminals.

Well, I doubt that it is quite that simple. After all, actually killing a wild animal is quite different than watching a cartoon of a wild animal being killed; and actually killing a helpless human being is quite different from the process of the hunting and killing of a wild animal.
 
The protocols I've seen are woefully inadequate, and I'm not sure why no one "in the know" has suggested fixing them, other than for the reasons I describe.

~Dr. Imago
It's probably because of all the laws that prevent laypeople in the US from having access to medical textbooks. Oh, wait, there aren't any laws like that.
 
If people can go hunting and be willing to kill deer if they watched Bambi in their childhood, they would most certainly be able to kill criminals.

That may be your belief but studies on ex-servicemen show that killing people is traumatic. Here is a link to one study, there are many, many others

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a514756.pdf

There's also a significant difference between killing close up and personal (so to speak) and killing at a distance or remotely. Pulling a lever to release a trap door or pushing a button to administer a drug is significantly different to putting a gun to someone's head and pulling a trigger.

My personal experience with animals has been that it's comparatively easy to kill rabbits with a .22 (although I personally felt regret afterwards and would prefer not to have to do it again) at a distance but snapping a rabbit's neck with my own hands (to kill it as humanely as possible after one of the cats dragged it it mortally injured) was much, much more difficult.
 
There's a difference between heat of the moment combat and executing a criminal who has been judged as vile and irredeemable, though how that changes things, YMMV. However, studies often note that people become less recalcitrant about the matter after they commit an act for the first time, including killing.
 
(1) You start two IVs and make sure that both are free-flowing prior to commencement of the procedure.
(2) You give a large dose of an amnestic agent, like midazolam, on the order of 2mg/kg.
(3) Next, you push through the primary IV a massive dose of an induction agent, like propofol or etomidate, to ensure that you've rendered the person completely unconscious.
(4) After this, you give a massive dose of a muscle paralytic, like rocuronium, at 10 times the normal dose to commence surgery.
(5) Lastly, you rapidly push 400 meq of potassium chloride in the IV.
So, why wouldn't you, at stage 3, administer a fatal overdose of a barbiturate as per veterinary euthanasia. That way you start off with anaesthetic induction and then the continued administration results in death, so no need for any other steps.

Why the need for the muscle relaxant and the potassioum chloride - what does KCl do anyway?

Yuri

(with apologies for the morbid interest :boggled:)
 
Oh come on, is Japan "barbaric" because it executes murderers after due process of law (which is within the state's monopoly on legitimate use of force)?

Japan's use of the death sentence is barbaric IMO. This does not make Japanese society as a whole barbaric and does not mean that societies which do not have the death sentence are necessarily less barbaric.

IMO (and it is a personal opinion) is that the death sentence has no place in a civilised society. In other threads I've stated my reasons why - I don't propose to derail this one.

And why do the likes of Mark Bridger and Ian Watkins deserve to live if they blatantly disregarded and shattered the lives of others?

Simply because IMO the death sentence has no place in a civilised society

Besides, implying that the US is like the worst traits of the Aztec Empire and Khmer Rouge Cambodia because it has the temerity to *shock, horror* put wastes of life out of society's misery does come across as pretentious.

You're the one constructing an absurd strawman by stating that I'm saying this. I have never equated the US to Aztecs or Khmer Rouge I have merely stated that I consider the US's continued use of the death penalty to be barbaric.
 
So, why wouldn't you, at stage 3, administer a fatal overdose of a barbiturate as per veterinary euthanasia. That way you start off with anaesthetic induction and then the continued administration results in death, so no need for any other steps.

Why the need for the muscle relaxant and the potassioum chloride - what does KCl do anyway?

Yuri

(with apologies for the morbid interest :boggled:)
While I won't pretend to understand the technical reasons for choosing a two-stage method (three counting the anesthesia), the KCl overdose specifically works to stop the heart.

ETA: I should note that with the KCl, I'm given to understand that by itself it would be a very painful way to die. So, I understand at least the anesthetic portion of the ritual.
 
Last edited:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7183957.stm

An old piece on the BBC related to a dcumentary that Michael Portillo did some time ago.

He strove to discuss the method of execution without disucssing the morals of having the death sentence on the statue books and his considered opinion was that inducing hypoxia was the least painful/distressing method (if that's what you're after when you're killing someone).

As an aside, a man I had previously thought to be an annoying tit came across as compassionate, intelligent, thoughtful and quite a nice chap. I hate having my illusions shattered.
 
"Barbaric" was often used to justify bigotry (See the Greek use of the term, as well as "zomg them brown/yellow people are behaving barbarically!" during the Age of Imperialism).

My point is that "Barbaric" is a VERY bad descriptor, often used by pretentious gits to boost their own inflated sense of morality.

If people can go hunting and be willing to kill deer if they watched Bambi in their childhood, they would most certainly be able to kill criminals.

Oh come on, is Japan "barbaric" because it executes murderers after due process of law (which is within the state's monopoly on legitimate use of force)? And why do the likes of Mark Bridger and Ian Watkins deserve to live if they blatantly disregarded and shattered the lives of others? Besides, implying that the US is like the worst traits of the Aztec Empire and Khmer Rouge Cambodia because it has the temerity to *shock, horror* put wastes of life out of society's misery does come across as pretentious.

When you hear the word "barbaric" it doesn't mean that the person you hear saying it is racist, it only means that you think "zomg them brown/yellow people are behaving barbarically!". So, why do you connect barbarism with "brown/yellow people"?
 

If you want to kill someone, there are better, if bloodier, ways. Why don't they just squash them with a 20 ton piledriver ?

Sheesh, those lethal injections seem really unreliable.

And that's not getting into the actual justification of capital "punishment".

Not that it'll change any minds, unfortunately. I'm sure many supporters of capital punishment have no problem with people suffering while being executed for their crimes.

Of course they don't. Their idea of justice is based on a feeling of revenge and "getting back" at the offender, rather than making society safer and individuals happier.
 
If people can go hunting and be willing to kill deer if they watched Bambi in their childhood, they would most certainly be able to kill criminals.

"Criminal" isn't a different species from "people", you know. I think you can judge a society by how it treats its outliers, good or bad.

And why do the likes of Mark Bridger and Ian Watkins deserve to live if they blatantly disregarded and shattered the lives of others?

Because justice isn't about revenge.
 
Japan's use of the death sentence is barbaric IMO. This does not make Japanese society as a whole barbaric and does not mean that societies which do not have the death sentence are necessarily less barbaric.

IMO (and it is a personal opinion) is that the death sentence has no place in a civilised society. In other threads I've stated my reasons why - I don't propose to derail this one.



Simply because IMO the death sentence has no place in a civilised society



You're the one constructing an absurd strawman by stating that I'm saying this. I have never equated the US to Aztecs or Khmer Rouge I have merely stated that I consider the US's continued use of the death penalty to be barbaric.

I am merely establishing that by "having the death penalty on the books" being the metric for "Barbaric", that's a pretty low bar.
 
I am an anesthesiologist. This is right up my alley, so to speak. However, I am prohibited by the charter in my board certification from being involved in capital punishment. Them's the rules. If I do it, I lose my certification.

Having said that, yes, I think the drugs used and the protocols written are, at the very least, inadequate and, at the worst, barbaric. In order to do this properly, we could very easily be involved in protocols that would be at the same time humane and would also do the job quickly and painlessly.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs on the death penalty. That is for society to decide. Going back to a sociology class I took as an undergrad, the key principles in an effective system of punishment, with regards to its effects on deterrence, it must meet three principles: celerity, severity, and certainty. With botched executions, you remove two of those secondary to the fallout in the court of public opinion.

Having said that, there is nothing that prevents me from saying how I would do it if I were allowed to be involved. This is how you accomplish the goals:

(1) You start two IVs and make sure that both are free-flowing prior to commencement of the procedure.
(2) You give a large dose of an amnestic agent, like midazolam, on the order of 2mg/kg.
(3) Next, you push through the primary IV a massive dose of an induction agent, like propofol or etomidate, to ensure that you've rendered the person completely unconscious.
(4) After this, you give a massive dose of a muscle paralytic, like rocuronium, at 10 times the normal dose to commence surgery.
(5) Lastly, you rapidly push 400 meq of potassium chloride in the IV.

Thanks for putting the "E" in JREF!

Total cost? Around $100. This would end the person's life - with absolutely no possibility of recollection of what happened -

Serial killer's new cellmate in Hell: So, how'd you die?

Serial killer (shaking his head): Damned if I know.
 
I'm not saying I'm right... but it's funny how once you read what he actually did...... how little you care that he suffered a bit.
I am against the death penalty but I find myself not caring at all that he suffered a bit. Hypocritical probably but true.
 
I've said before I'm no fan of the death penalty. Inequitably administered, prone to errors, not a deterrent, etc, etc.
No doubt there are seriously-depraved nasty people who can quite rightly be said to deserve being removed from society.
However, the attendant problems outweigh this IMO. We have seen in recent years any number of people removed from various "death rows" after being found to have been innocent of the crime.
The other problems still remain, of course.

Here in Missouri, we are going through the same difficulties as Oklahoma... The pharmaceuticals used were being supplied by European firms, and they refuse to participate. So, the state found new "compounding pharmacies" to supply drugs... Which they are keeping secret.
They are not only keeping the pharmacy secret, but the drugs themselves. No oversight... They are passing legislation to enforce this secrecy.
Already, lawsuits have been filed. Yet, the state is on an execution binge and has been knocking off about one a month.... Some of these people have been on death row for 30 years.
Which raises another point... The death penalty is vastly expensive to administer. Not only are these people kept confined in high-security areas for long periods of time, but the mandatory appeals and reviews are expensive as well.

Now, for the more sanguine, we could do as other countries do... (countries we typically think of as human-rights violators) Take them out and shoot them shortly after they are found guilty, or revive the guillotine, (The Germans had essentially perfected the device and continued to use it well into the 20th century) or whatever.

As noted above, our criminal justice system makes noises about rehabilitation and calls prisons "correctional" facilities, but in reality it's primarily about retribution and revenge. Even convictions for relatively minor crimes tend to ruin the person for life.
 

Back
Top Bottom