Borders Books: What a difference 5 years make

Three heavily armed men break into a home and hold the couple there hostage in their bedroom. One of the men produces a piece of chalk, and drawing a circle in the corner, puts a gun to the head of the husband and tell him, "if you move out of this circle, I will kill you!" The husband stands in the circle the entire time his wife is raped. After the men leave, the husband is still in the corner . . . giggling.

His wife angrily asks, "What the Hell can possibily be so funny, our home has been broken into by three armed men, your life was threatened and I was brutally raped?"

And the husband answers: "Yeah, but while they were busy with you, I stepped out of the circle three times!"


WIFE: I hear a burglar downstairs.
HUSBAND: You're dreaming, go back to sleep.
WIFE: I'm telling you, there's a burglar downstairs.
HUSBAND: Okay, okay... (Goes downstairs, meets man with ski mask and knife).
HUSBAND: Are you a burglar?
MAN: No, I'm a rapist.
HUSBAND: (To wife): Sarah, it's for you!
 
That's a bizarre way to phrase it. Did Skeptic or anyone else say or imply that Jews were hidden for any reason other than because in that era and in that part of the world they were facing extreme persecution?

Why is it a bizarre way to phrase it? The example was Nazi Germany and Skeptic was talking about his family (pssst . . . I think Skeptic is Jewish). Jews weren't the only people despised by the Nazis. My point was, I would have hidden ANY family.

Are Palestinians being sent to concentration camps?

That's non-sequitur. Are you going to tell me that you can't envision a situation where an innocent Palestinian family is hiding from Israeli soldiers?
 
That's non-sequitur. Are you going to tell me that you can't envision a situation where an innocent Palestinian family is hiding from Israeli soldiers?

So that they could be killed on the spot of sent to gas chambers where all Palestinians are to be killed? No, as a Satff Sergeant (Res.) in the IDF, I cannot envision it.

Now that you mention it, however, it's rather easier to envision a jewish family trying to hide from Palestinian terrorists, as had happened quite often recently, or for that matter of a Palestinian family being butchered for hiding a jew, since Palestinian terrorists make it routine business to kill anybody they suspect of "collaborating" with the jews, and no higher collaboration can be envisioned that denying the brave freedom fighters their rightful jewish prey.

Anyway, and in any case, that is not the point. Who said anything about the Nazis ONLY targeting jews, or that the Polish peasant (or anybody) should hide them BECAUSE they are jews? Where have I remotely implied that if they were, say, Russian, then I would say he should NOT have hidden them? It is extremely bizzare, Mephisto, that I make a moral point about it being the right thing to do to hide jewish refugees from the Nazis--as a paradigmatic example of an act that is beyound doubt moral correct--and you manage to read into that some sort of "pro-jewish bias" or suspect I want "extra rights" for jews.

(And even if I had been asking for "extra rights" for Jews in WWII Europe, would that have been unjustified? There is something deeply perverse in the fact that "we demand priority in college admission because our great-granfathers were opressed" seems reasonable, but "I think jews should have had priority in getting hid from the Nazis in WWII because they were the one race singled out for complete annihilation" seems like unfair, pro-jewish bias.)
 
Anyway, and in any case, that is not the point. Who said anything about the Nazis ONLY targeting jews, or that the Polish peasant (or anybody) should hide them BECAUSE they are jews?

PLEASE, Skeptic, you didn't say those things. I was replying to Mycroft's assertion:

That's a bizarre way to phrase it. Did Skeptic or anyone else say or imply that Jews were hidden for any reason other than because in that era and in that part of the world they were facing extreme persecution?

Please don't let him put thoughts in your head. I would certainly risk my life for a Jewish family, or a "Gypsy" family (they were also as mistreated by the Nazis) or any other HUMAN family. I wasn't implying in any way that Jews deserved preferential treatment, only that; at the risk to my own family, I could NOT turn down ANY FAMILY in fear for their lives. You provided the example, and I thought it was particularly relevant. :)


Where have I remotely implied that if they were, say, Russian, then I would say he should NOT have hidden them? It is extremely bizzare, Mephisto, that I make a moral point about it being the right thing to do to hide jewish refugees from the Nazis--as a paradigmatic example of an act that is beyound doubt moral correct--and you manage to read into that some sort of "pro-jewish bias" or suspect I want "extra rights" for jews.

Again, Skeptic - nothing could be further from the truth. Your moral point was well taken, and I added that I would do the same for a Palestinian family, not necessarily because I agree with them (Hell - I'd probably save a White Supremicist family being chased by liberals with torches & pitchforks), but because they are human.

(And even if I had been asking for "extra rights" for Jews in WWII Europe, would that have been unjustified? There is something deeply perverse in the fact that "we demand priority in college admission because our great-granfathers were opressed" seems reasonable, but "I think jews should have had priority in getting hid from the Nazis in WWII because they were the one race singled out for complete annihilation" seems like unfair, pro-jewish bias.)

Take it easy. This is a knee-jerk attitude to an example you brought up. For the record - I believe the Jews (throughout history, and NOT just the holocaust) have suffered more than their share ALL OVER THE WORLD. They have always been one of the most maligned, least appreciated cultures in the world. Having said that, I'll readily admit to poking at their apparent tendency to forget what it's like to be living in the slums in the shadow of a military power.
 
While I love talking about corporate cowardice and heroism that incorporates Joseph Campbell into the corporate structure, but all of this hullaboo surrounding Borders' not carrying the issue seems to be a very cheap ploy to hype their political correctness. It's one thing not to carry something due to violence. It's quite another to use a horrible incident to boost your crappy bookstore's esteem and create controversy needlessly.

Plus, what would be so awful if they just stuck it behind the counter or such? Not that I believe anything should be held back from anybody because their delicate sensibilities can't handle it (in which they should grow the heck up), but not carrying it just seems like a cheap way to get publicity just to show how politically correct they like to show themselves being.

It just doesn't sit right.
 
While I love talking about corporate cowardice and heroism that incorporates Joseph Campbell into the corporate structure, but all of this hullaboo surrounding Borders' not carrying the issue seems to be a very cheap ploy to hype their political correctness. It's one thing not to carry something due to violence. It's quite another to use a horrible incident to boost your crappy bookstore's esteem and create controversy needlessly.

Plus, what would be so awful if they just stuck it behind the counter or such? Not that I believe anything should be held back from anybody because their delicate sensibilities can't handle it (in which they should grow the heck up), but not carrying it just seems like a cheap way to get publicity just to show how politically correct they like to show themselves being.

It just doesn't sit right.

Wow! You're even more cynical than I am! :)

You're right, it's silly to think that Hustler, Trailer-Trash Weekly and Psycho Cycle Sluts" can be sold behind the counter, but cartoons can't? It's a bold move to be sure, but it does stand the chance of angering customers like Skeptic - I wonder if they (Borders) have "stats" to prove they should cater to a more liberal audience? I know a lot of the Conservatives around me don't read much if they can help it. ;)
 
It has everything to do both with that example and with the Borders' example. You support cowardice by telling us that real bravery is only justified if it can save or help more people than it might hurt. This is why you support surrendering to Islamists and Nazis as the "logical" thing to do.

No, it doesn't.

The Borders example is a confrontation of two values - what you termed "sanctity of life" versus "freedom of expression". One's opinion on the situation is going to fall on whichever value a particular person prioritizes. The emotionally-charged, intelligence-insulting lifeboat dilemma you've thrown at me pits a single value against itself - "sanctity of life" (the lives of your family) versus "sanctity of life" (the life of the refugee). You have a choice to hide the refugee or protect your family - but either choice you make, you will be both respecting the "sanctity of life" principle and disregarding it. That's what makes what you call "the utility calculus" necessary at all. Since both options both support and violate your principle, it seems to me that the right thing to do is pick the option which is most supportive and least violative of your principle.

How do you do that fairly? First, strip away all of the subjective, emotionally charged baggage words like "Nazi", and "refugee", because those are unimportant. I'll volunteer to ignore the phrase "my family", because I've been raised to understand that your family comes first, since they are the people you already have a foremost responsibility to protect (that might cloud the issue, and again I'm trying to be fair). It finally becomes:

Option 1: Save 6 lives, place 1 in danger
Option 2: Save 1 life, place 6 in danger

There are many ways to "couch" this expression. For example, I can change your problem to

You are endowed with superhuman strength, but not speed. Two out-of-control cars are headed toward a cliff. One contains a family of 6 passengers, one contains only a single passenger who happens to be a prominent womens' rights leader. Each car is assured to roll off the cliff and die unless you save it - however, you only have time to save one of the cars, and you have no alternative options. Which one do you save?

Again, either choice involves both saving and sacrificing life. The fact that the six passengers in one car are a family and that the single passenger in the other happens to be famous are unimportant when it comes down to the nitty-gritty. How do you weigh life? What one single life, no matter who it is, justifies the sacrifice of 6? Do you believe the refugee is entitled to special treatment?

So why won't you support surrendering to rapists as well? In my example, confronting the rapist would almost certainly NOT save more people than it might hurt; if anything, it's pretty certain to do the opposite. So according to your logic, you shouldn't do it because it wouldn't be brave, just stupid and reckless. Give me ONE good reason, according to your own logic, as to why you would interfere with the rape.

Because the issue is no longer "sanctity of life" versus "sanctity of life" (in fact, it isn't any value vs. any value) and therefore what you call the "utility calculus" no longer applies. Assuming no lives are in danger here (not counting mine - remember, situations like this don't factor in personal safety). I have the choice of acting or not acting. If I act and fail, the result will be the same as if I had not acted; so let us assume that "acting" automatically means "succeeding" (which I'm confident I could do anyway. I'm very most likely bigger and scarier than the rapist). Not acting means my wife is raped and the rapist probably goes free. Acting means my wife is not raped, and the rapist may still go free, but the probability of being caught is higher because he's injured or captured.

But of course, since you're married, you've sworn to protect your wife anyway, so this situation has nothing to do with "bravery", it's simply "duty". Thus, not acting isn't "cowardice", it's "negligence".

And before we go on, I'd like to suggest you drop this issue, as you cannot approach it objectively. It's very clear, from the moment you indicated that you took personal offense (because of your ancestry) to my attempt to answer your question fairly, that you can't proceed neutrally here. It was bad enough that you had the nerve, knowing what you know about your family's past - to give me such a situation and demand that I make a decision; but to then, after I struggle to find an answer, throw in "oh by the way, my family were Jewish refugees and I'm glad they didn't find you" and use that as a foundation from which to hurl such terrible vitriol and insist that I would betray my friends and let my wife be raped(!), is a truly dirty trick. From the very beginning of our particular exchange you've given me every reason to be personally insulted and to hold you in the same kind of contempt you seem to be throwing at me, but I've tried to remain neutral, and I don't expect you to apologize for your behavior, because you cannot possibly be objective on this matter any longer. And there are some very touchy subjects which have been discussed on this forum in the past which I have struggled to not participate in because of my own subjectivity regarding them, so this isn't an empty-handed suggestion.
 
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i always tried to buy the banned books i could read to my kids. Huck Finn was a hit.i cant remember the other ones around here. but i think theres a bookshelf either here or at the hideout with a bunch. oh hears a pile.

i think everyone should have 2 or three books in their library just to screw with public agency's that may enter your home. invited or not. revolution for the hell of it by free, the encyclopedia of witchcraft and demonology and the anarchists cook book would be a good start
 
And before we go on, I'd like to suggest you drop this issue, as you cannot approach it objectively. It's very clear, from the moment you indicated that you took personal offense (because of your ancestry) to my attempt to answer your question fairly, that you can't proceed neutrally here.

I don't have Jewish ancestry, but my assessment is pretty much the same as Skeptic’s.

The bottom line is if you surrender a freedom at the slightest hint of danger (and this was a slight hint of danger, the odds of anything happening being remote) then you just don’t place a high enough value on the freedom.
 
That's non-sequitur. Are you going to tell me that you can't envision a situation where an innocent Palestinian family is hiding from Israeli soldiers?

Actually, no. Could you describe this scenario?
 
The bottom line is if you surrender a freedom at the slightest hint of danger (and this was a slight hint of danger, the odds of anything happening being remote) then you just don’t place a high enough value on the freedom.
They are not surrenduring freedom. They are making a business decision. Which they are free to do.
 
They are not surrenduring freedom. They are making a business decision. Which they are free to do.

Surrendering a freedom and making a business decision are not mutually contradictory actions. The decision was to surrender a freedom to a hypothetical threat.
 
I don't have Jewish ancestry, but my assessment is pretty much the same as Skeptic’s.

The bottom line is if you surrender a freedom at the slightest hint of danger (and this was a slight hint of danger, the odds of anything happening being remote) then you just don’t place a high enough value on the freedom.

That makes logical sense; but exactly which freedom was surrendered?
 
The freedoms of expression and the freedom to criticize.

Could it be argued that, by not stocking the magazine, Borders was exercising its freedom of expression - sending a message that it disagreed with the magazine's decision to publish the allegedly offensive caricatures?
 
Could it be argued that, by not stocking the magazine, Borders was exercising its freedom of expression - sending a message that it disagreed with the magazine's decision to publish the allegedly offensive caricatures?

What was their claim?

Did they claim to be protesting offensive cartoons? Or did they claim to be concerned about violence from others offended by the cartoons?
 
What was their claim?

Did they claim to be protesting offensive cartoons? Or did they claim to be concerned about violence from others offended by the cartoons?

As I understood it, they didn't make a claim. They just said they weren't going to carry it.
 
As I understood it, they didn't make a claim. They just said they weren't going to carry it.

Sure they did. Borders' corporate policy is that the publishers of the skeptic magazine are "tools" and that, at least according to the initial media reports, that this issue was pulled for fear of violence.
 

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