Merged Bitcoin - Part 3

Dr. Keith said:
It has value due to speculation on the bigger fool. It has utility as a tool for criminals. A tool for criminals doesn’t have such an erratic valuation. The two are unrelated. Bitcoin at $4 is still useful to criminals.
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All proven to be TOTAL RUBBISH in 2011. But worse, you actually think you are posting original total rubbish.
 
Bitcoin does have some utility.

Remember the Silk Road era?

Here is the story of how the creator of Silk Road thought he was using his bitcoin to hire an assassin but instead instead got taken for a ride.

 
Dr. Keith said:
Do you know what a strawman is?

Bitcoin has no legitimate use, it is only useful to criminals and speculators counting on the bigger fool.
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Captain_Swoop said:
Bitcoin does have some utility.

Remember the Silk Road era?

Here is the story of how the creator of Silk Road thought he was using his bitcoin to hire an assassin but instead instead got taken for a ride.

Click to expand...

Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.
 
Do you transfer directly wallet-to-wallet or through some kind of exchange?
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.
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That is the intended use.
Crypto is money printing of course, so there is no need for capital gain. If a lot more crypto is needed, anyone can create their own with a fiat currency just as any business asset can be purchased. There is no need for capital gain of the asset, and that is the reality crypto is encountering.
At market cap a trillion, maybe the only way to 2 trillion this time is with investing fiat currency.
It might be eggs that becomes the ideal currency, see Catch 22.
 
ChrisBFRPKY said:
Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm well over trying to argue whether Bitcoin is good or bad. You guys seem to think Bitcoin has no use or value whatsoever, and that's fine of course. Who am I to deny someone their opinion?

The thing is, I use Bitcoin and other crypto on a routine basis to do business expense transfers overseas. I've done this for several years at this point and it has saved me thousands in transfer fees alone. Plus the time factor is much faster to transfer via BTC/crypto rather than manual bank transfers/wiring. No trips to the bank, no waiting days for confirmation of the transfer, I can see the amount posted in the overseas account within minutes. it's just an all around better way to transfer wealth or in this case monthly expenses, overseas. If for no other reason than that, Bitcoin is a winner.
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Cool. I can Venmo or Zelle small amounts and have transferred larger amounts without ever going to a bank. True, it can take an hour or two to transfer funds, but that’s not typically an issue with legitimate business transfers like buying assets or real estate.

I’ve probably not transferred as much money as you have internationally, mainly just client funds to foreign law firms, but the timing has always astonished me as being quick. Especially since I can do it from my phone.

Most of the international invoices I receive are in local currency and USD. I tend to check the exchange rate at the time I’m paying and pay in the currency that is cheaper for me. The difference is typically quite minor.

Do you get invoices in Bitcoin? What exchange rate do you use? At the time of invoice or at the time of payment?

Do they kill the hostage if you don’t use the right exchange rate?
 
psionl0 said:
All proven to be TOTAL RUBBISH in 2011. But worse, you actually think you are posting original total rubbish.
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I don’t think I’m original at all. In fact I’ve pointed out that Bill Gates is the latest to point out the obvious issue with Bitcoin.

The next person to point out that I am bald is neither original nor wrong. See how that works?
 
Dr. Keith said:
I don’t think I’m original at all. In fact I’ve pointed out that Bill Gates is the latest to point out the obvious issue with Bitcoin.

The next person to point out that I am bald is neither original nor wrong. See how that works?
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But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation and that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.
 
psionl0 said:
But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation
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I don't see where Dr. Keith made such an assertion, re you sure you are not just imagining things again?

psionl0 said:
that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.
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In that case let me summarize your earlier reposes:
response a) na na na I can't hear you
response b) Invent some stawman about it being "only criminals that use bitcoin" when in the fact argument goes that traditional vehicles are simply a much better option for non- criminals.
response c) "I answered that in response a!"
 
psionl0 said:
That's because you are looking at this thread with both eyes closed:
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So you admit to creating a stawman that it can't be used for anything else when what he really said is that it isn't used for anything else.

Also worth noting is that when someone says something like that finding a handful of exceptions doesn't change the principle being argued. We don't need to add caveats every single time we talk about how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for.
 
lomiller said:
So you admit to creating a stawman that it can't be used for anything else when what he really said is that it isn't used for anything else.
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He didn't say that. Open your eyes.

lomiller said:
Also worth noting is that when someone says something like that finding a handful of exceptions doesn't change the principle being argued. We don't need to add caveats every single time we talk about how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for.
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You have no data whatsoever on the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes. As usual, you are making up your own "facts".
 
psionl0 said:
You have no data whatsoever on the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes. As usual, you are making up your own "facts".
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I never mentioned "the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes". If you have a claim to make regarding this than make it but stop lying about it.
 
lomiller said:
I never mentioned "the percentage of bitcoin transactions that are for criminal purposes". If you have a claim to make regarding this than make it but stop lying about it.
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You posted about a "handful of exemptions" and "how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for". Clearly you are saying that the bulk of bitcoin transactions are criminal in nature. Without any data of course.
 
psionl0 said:
You posted about a "handful of exemptions" and "how little non-criminal activity bitcoin gets used for". Clearly you are saying that the bulk of bitcoin transactions are criminal in nature. Without any data of course.
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This confuses type of transactions with raw numbers. The raw numbers would probably favor speculative transactions.

Also it's important to be clear what is meant by "criminal." Someone using it to send money to someone within a crumbling despotic state might be technically committing a crime if that country has confiscatory laws, I guess, but not sure I'd break into a sweat over that.

Bitcoin has a libertarian origin. Which means part of the whole point is civil disobedience. In that light all of this seems more a feature than a bug.
 
psionl0 said:
But you are definitely wrong.

Your assertion that the bigger fool theory applies uniquely to bitcoin and no other instrument of speculation and that only criminals use bitcoin has been repeated ad-nauseum since 2011. You neither acknowledge these earlier arguments nor the responses to them.
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Remove the words “uniquely” and “only” and I think you will get closer to understanding my arguments.

In fact, I’ve given examples of other speculative investments that rely on the bigger fool theory.

And the fact that i acknowledge this speculative activity is a clear indication that there are non-criminal transaction.

Like most thing libertarian it misses the history of how we ended up with the system we have. Libertarians decry the coddling state of the automobile industry, with the seat belts and airbags that serve no real purpose, and insist they should be allowed on the highway with their souped up lawn mower. Bitcoin is not so different.

If you really want to free yourself from government controlled fiat currency then make a crypto currency that can only be exchanged for goods or services. No interaction with fiat currency allowed. You either mine it or earn it, you can’t buy it or sell it with tainted paper.
 
Dr. Keith said:
Cool. I can Venmo or Zelle small amounts and have transferred larger amounts without ever going to a bank. True, it can take an hour or two to transfer funds, but that’s not typically an issue with legitimate business transfers like buying assets or real estate.

I’ve probably not transferred as much money as you have internationally, mainly just client funds to foreign law firms, but the timing has always astonished me as being quick. Especially since I can do it from my phone.

Most of the international invoices I receive are in local currency and USD. I tend to check the exchange rate at the time I’m paying and pay in the currency that is cheaper for me. The difference is typically quite minor.

Do you get invoices in Bitcoin? What exchange rate do you use? At the time of invoice or at the time of payment?

Do they kill the hostage if you don’t use the right exchange rate?
Click to expand...

It's not that kind of business. :thumbsup: Full points reply though!

I receive an invoice in THB, convert to the current USD/THB exchange rate and transfer the funds via crypto. It's very easy and I've tweaked the process along the way. In most cases now the transfers are completely free and go from crypto to THB and on to the receiving bank momentarily. They like to claim the transfers are "Instant" but in reality it takes a few minutes likely due to the people factor at the local bank. Prior to using crypto for transfers it cost me at minimum $50 and a trip to the bank to complete a wire and then the days of waiting. Now, it's fast and free.

Have there been transfers that changed in value? Yes, a couple of times due to a "slight delay" on the other end. (This has been corrected by one of the tweaks I made to the system.) Because of the "slight delay" on the other end, the price of Bitcoin rose before the conversion to THB. While this was in our favor it was still unacceptable as these funds were for expenses, not speculation. It could just as easily gone the other way which is why I now control both ends of the transaction. This removed the "slight delay" factor and the interest in speculation. People are only Human.
 
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